moosikins Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Our poor baby (6 mo old) was diagnosed with localized demodex mange on her snout yesterday. It's on her left lip and spreading under her nose. Since we took her to the emergency vet (with a nice $300+ price tag for blood work, the skin scraping, and the Sunday evening visit), he gave us a few week supply of Ivermectin. We'll be seeing the regular vet tomorrow to review the medication, because it makes us super nervous (we know about the herding breed's poor tolerance of the med. - "white feet, don't treat") For now, we were told to slowly increase the dose from 0.10 mg to 0.70 mg by 0.20 every three days and keep an eye on any neurological symptoms that could develop. Since it's only on her face and right on her mouth area, dips don't seem like the right thing...but that medicine, even with a slowly increasing dose, seems dangerous despite her not being a pure BC (BC/Yellow Lab). The regular vet will tell us her opinion tomorrow in comparison to the emergency vet's, but we want some additional information to arm ourselves with. My question to all of you experienced BC owners...what is your experience with treating this kind of mild (caught early), localized mange? How much did you end up spending until your pup got several negative scrapings? (We're hoping for an educated guesstimate, so we can plan ahead) How long did it take until you got the negative scrapings twice? What kind of medications did you use? Did you need to trim the BC's fur shorter, even if the mange didn't affect the body? Did you switch the food? If so, what did you choose? How did you improve the pup's immune system to help them combat the parasites better? Any other suggestions, comments, thoughts? We're probably really blowing the worrying out of proportion, but still...she's our baby dog. ~Moosikins P.S. - Since I've been thinking about Callie's health a lot in the last 24 hours, I was reminiscing about my previous dog. "Moosikins" was my Black Lab/Rottweiler mix's nickname. We lost him in late 2011 to deteriorating health at 12 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 I'm going through the exact same thing with Tess - a patch of demodetic mange on her snout, around the lips on the left side of her face. First she did a test for fungi, came back negative, then a scraping and mange showed clearly. But my vet chosed not to go with ivermectin. Tess is putting some drops every 2 weeks - the kind you put for fleas and ticks only these are also efective for mange. I'm cleaning the area daily with a special shampoo, then aplying a skin regeneration cream, and she takes 2 fat acids pills a day to strengthen the immune sistem. I didn't fully understand why not the ivermectin, but I'm all for not giving the dog potent drugs unless absolutely necessary. After 3 weeks treatment, the affected area did grow a bit, but on the other hand is very clearly much less inflamed, and the places where she didn't have any hair now have a nice covering of new hair. Vet did say this is not a thing that goes away overnight, so overall I'm confident the treatment is working. She will be back at the vet next weekend to check for progress. A few months ago, she was diagnosed with ancilostoma, a parasite that locates in the lungs and intestine. That was successfully treated. Vet says the parasite weakened her immune sistem, and mange being oportunistic, promptly showed itself. I wasn't aware ivermectin can be problematic in bc's. If that's the case, I don't know I would agree to go with it, in a mild case like our dogs have. But you do have to trust your vet. Or change vets. As for your questions, what I can answer is: 60 euros for the scraping, vet visit and meds. 12 euros for the second visit (I'm assuming they didn't charge for the visit, just the drops, as a consultation is supposed to be 16 euros). I'll pay something for the next visits, I'm sure, but presumably not much. I spent a bit more on the inicial consultation and test for fungi, but that doesn't really count as far as calculating the price of mange related stuff. All I can say is I'm happy to live in a country and region where vet prices are very reasonable. She can't have her vaccines, or be spayed, till mange is fully cleared. There was no fur trimming, and she doesn't have it anywhere else, just this bit on her snout. I didn't change food. To tell the truth, I was quite happy it was mange. It's very treatable, and next option was an allergy. 3 years from now we would still be trying to figure out what she was alergic to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Your mention to dips, if I junderstand it correctly, is something my vet also didn't want to do, as she will obviously lick anything that's put right around her mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Sensitivity to Ivermectin can be caused by a mutation of the MDR1 gene and less than 5% of BCs are estimated to have the mutation. Compare that with around 70% of Rough Collies (Lassie) and the smooth coated version affected. I've found a web site discussing the issue where the incidences quoted clearly relate to Rough Collies and other breeds but the piece was headed by a photo of two BCs! Beware of relying on the internet for accuracy. There have been other threads on the subject that will no doubt elaborate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 You can have a genetic test done for the MDR1 gene. The most commonly affected breeds are Australian Shepherd and Aussie mixes, Collie ("Lassie" collie), Long-haired Whippet, McNab, and Silken Windhound, but I believe it is not unknown in Border Collies, where it appears in <5% of dogs tested (http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/breeds.aspx). You might check these boards for past topics dealing with this. I don't know the cost of the test but if it is reasonable, testing plus using Ivermectin if your dog is MDR1-free, might be an easier and cheaper approach to treatment. Very best wishes dealing with this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I've had three dogs who had a bout of localized demodectic mange as youngsters. In total I spent $0.00 treating all three dogs. I do have access to a microscope, and access to a parasitologist, so I did have the advantage of a free skin scraping and a lesson on what the mites look like with the first pup. Virtually all dogs have some demodectic mites. Puppies whose immune system is slow to mature may not be able to keep the mites at bay, and under stress (poor diet, inadequate housing, the hormonal stress of adolescence, e.g.) the mite population may explode in localized patches, leading to small hairless patches, usually on the face, but also sometimes on the legs. Vets generally classify demodectic mange as either localized or generalized. Localize mange is generally limited to five or fewer small patches, each generally smaller than the diameter of a 50 cent piece. As long as the mange is localized, pups generally outgrow it, and there's no evidence that there's any benefit to treating it at all. It will take a while though - with my pups it took at least a month to see signs of improvement, and upwards of three months for the hairless patches to heal over completely. Generalized mange is a more serious matter. I had a friend who had an aussie bitch develop generalized mange just before the onset of her first time coming in season. In that case, the hairless patch exploded from a small spot on the back leg to the entire inside of the thigh breaking out in a matter of less than a week. Not knowing the MDR1 status of her bitch, she had her dipped, which took care of that outbreak. But she was warned that every time the bitch came in season, the hormonal stress would likely trigger another outbreak, and there is at least some genetic component to the condition, so she had the bitch spayed. And, as she was warned, the stress of the spay triggered another outbreak, and it took three dips at 2 week intervals to get it under control. I think she said that she paid something in the neighborhood of $150 per dip, so roughly $600 overall, I guess. The dip is nasty stuff, and I've heard of dogs being lethargic and nauseous for days afterwards sometimes, so if you can safely give your dog ivermectin that's probably preferable. But, unless your dog has the generalized form of mange, there's no reason to treat it at all. I would just keep a very close eye on your dog, check daily to make sure there aren't new spots showing up, and if not, be patient and let your pup's immune system take care of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I'm with Hooper. I had one dog that developed localized Demodex at ~ 6 months of age. IIRC, the vet didn't recommend anything beyond Neosporin ointment, and keep an eye on it. It went away by itself. Generalized Demodex is a whole 'nother thing - this was just a small patch above his eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I'm doing more or less what Hooper said - cleaning and nutring the skin, but she is also putting the anti parasites drops on her neck, and taking the fatty acids pills. It seems to be working. About spaying, I was still on the fence about that one, leaning slightly towards spaying, but with this tendency for the mange to return every heat, I have decided to spay her. But that can only be done when then mange has completely cleared. Aside from this she is a very healthy dog. Vet is convinced the outbreak is due to the previous parasite she had weakening her immune sistem a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 My first dog had generalised demodectic mange when he was picked up off the street. The rescue treated it with 2 or 3 baths with Aludex shampoo, current price about £15 a bottle. Add to that a consultation to get the prescription for the shampoo and maybe a skin scraping and I'd be avery surprised if they spent more than about £90 even at today's prices. When I got him his coat was recovering well but patches it was still only just starting to grow in places. He developed a couple of new small patches that I mentioned to my vet who just said to keep an eye on it. If it got worse she would do a skin scraping but didn't consider it necessary at the time and it would be unpleasant for the dog. They disappeared and he recovered completely without further treatment as his immune system improved. And nothing special was done with regards to his immunity, just a good diet and security. I like my vet; she doesn't treat without good reason and can justify it in terms of likely outcome. I have never had the impression that she's trying to squeeze every last penny out of me. I find the younger vets in the practice are sometimes more inclined to over prescribe but I can deal with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I've had several young dogs with localized demodex mange. It just went away by itself. I had one dog where it spread all over the top of her head and the skin turned fiery red. The vet gave me something to rub on it. I remember he told me that it always looks the very worst right before it goes away. And it did just go away kind of all of a sudden. I think its very common for young, fast growing dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I suspect Kenzi had this when she was about 1 yr old. Never took her to the vet because it was quite small, localized and didn't bother her. It was right around the same time that she was having some major GI upset issues (which she did she the vet for). The patches cleared up after a month or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosikins Posted November 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 Thank you all so much for your insights! The update on Callie is that her normal vet (we saw an emergency vet on Sunday night) didn't like the idea of her taking Ivermectin and gave me a medicated dip for her. We'll be putting it on her face weekly, and luckily, she doesn't need to be trimmed/shaved unless we find more spots. We also got a special shampoo to wash her with tonight before the dip. Callie has a follow up appointment in three weeks to do another skin scrape to make sure it's getting better. The vet expects to see improvement in three weeks! We're not going to switch her food since she already eats a high quality kibble (Hills Science Diet) with Hills stew-like wet food mixed in sometimes. We're adding Salmon Oil to her diet for her coat too. Other than the mange, she looks fantastic. Her nails are freshly trimmed although it took two people to hold her off the table while the vet cut them...She only gave up fighting them towards the end and went completely limp like a noodle with her paws dangling. I think she must be feeling better than she was this past weekend to have enough energy to wiggle that much! P.S. - The vet recommended we test her for MDR1 gene for future knowledge because there are several types of medications, including cancer drugs for animals, that contain substances that the gene makes the dog sensitive to. If you live in the US, you can order the kit here for free and pay $70 for them to test it. It looks like they might also do international shipping, but I don't know if it's free shipping or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 Glad she's doing well. FWIW, if you're comfortable with Science Diet then I'm sure she'll do fine with it but the ingredients leave something to be desired and, IMO, it's a midgrade food at a premium price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosikins Posted November 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 Maralynn, what do you feed yours? I wouldn't object to switching her over once we get through the mange if we find something that's better and the same price or better and cheaper (that would be awesome!). I probably won't change anything up to avoid stressing her immune system in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 There have been a number of topics dealing with feeding choices. Except for prescription diets for certain problems, I can't recall anyone thinking Hills was anything but cheap ingredients at an inflated price, other than those that sell it. The important thing about any diet is how the individual dog or animal does on it. There have been many examples of one person's dog doing well on a food that another person's animal does not do well on. Try a recommended alternative and see how your dog does. I have been happy with Eagle Pack Holistic. Another person feels it's "over-priced yuppie food", Learn read the ingredient list (again, check with past topics for a lot of discussion, not always agreement, on this concern). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I rotate though a few different kibbles. Currently they are eating Victor brand - the 30/20 "Active Dog and Puppy" formula. I'll probably get Nutrisource again after this bag. If you do a search for "food" on this forum you'll find lots of threads/opinions/suggestions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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