Aed ran on to the road

[chene]

I'm not really looking for advice, just needed to share.

 

Just recently Aed has suddenly taken an interest in cars. Like, a super intense lunging interest, but only when he's on the sidewalk beside the road. We had been meaning to starting working on it for the past couple of days, but we were both super busy and had put it off in favour of working on other things.

Anyways, there's a great dog park by my house, in two sections. There is the whole off leash beaches section, and the park section on the hills above the beach. The beach is way below and never to busy, so it's perfect to have him off leash, and we bring him there regularly.

Sometimes we go up to the park area, and we have never had trouble there before. The road isn't particularly close, and there are trees and bushes in between the park and it. However, for some reason or another, yesterday Aed noticed the cars from that far away and immediately went bolting towards the road, making a big circle around the bushes until he had wide open field to run through.

My boyfriend ran after him, and I, after a moment of being frozen, followed. For the first time Aed ignored his name being called and even being formally recalled. He didn't even hear us, really. I heard a horn honking, but that was all. By the time I got around the corner both dog and boyfriend had disappeared.

I finally found them on the opposite side of the road, boyfriend holding Aed and a man talking to them. Aed was holding one of his front paws off the ground. Apparently one of the car's wheels had just clipped it, as far as we could tell. After making sure Aed was okay, the man left, and boyfriend and I just sort of sat there holding on to the pup trying to get control of ourselves. It was my birthday.
We carried him back across the road eventually, and started working on Look at That with cars immediately after on a quieter road. I feel like a terrible owner, though. I remember reading the section in Chaser where she tries to run after the car. I remember thinking how irresponsible he was for letting her be off leash by the road like that. And now I'm just the same. I feel like I grossly underestimated my dog's prey drive and it just didn't register in my half-grown teenage brain how dangerous that kind of thing could be. His paw was fine, but it could have just as easily been his head that was clipped, or dragged, or who knows what. When his paw got hit, he froze, in the middle of the road, until my boyfriend dragged him off. I'm glad I didn't see it. We certainly won't be taking off-leash situations as lightly anymore.

Okay, good. I feel better, now that I've confessed. But god, what a stupid mess.

[G. Festerling]

As much as it sounds old and lame.....stuff happens. Even the "best" owners can make mistakes or rather misjudge. Glad he was ok and sounds like you are right on it.

Happy belated birthday!

[teresaserrano]

Been there... Don't beat yourself up, just learn from it, as you evidently have. Dogs will be dogs, even when you think you have a whole lot of control stuff can happen. Happy birthday.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

My Harry liked to jump out of the car at sheepdog trials to find hot gyps. In town one day, I parked across the street from the farm supply and he dashed out behind my legs. Fortunately, the car was going slow and he wasn't hurt.

 

I hadn't seen the problem coming but was very lucky. From then on Harry didn't exit the car until told to do so.

 

Like me, the OP was lucky and like me she now knows she has a problem. Yes, keep AED on lead near temptation but please break AED of car chasing. There are a number of ways of solving this but you need a 100% solution, 95% won't do and "sometimes" may leave you with a dead dog.

 

For the dog, car chasing (until it turns fatal) is self reinforcing. He chases the car off. What a dog! The OP has already experienced a dog who literally could not hear a word she was saying. AED won't hear you next time either. If you are very lucky, AED will associate car chasing with his hurt foot and avoid chasing in future. I've seen that happen. If you're not lucky, AED will assume his chase was inelegant or that this particular car was unusually vicious and resume chasing (although he may be more wary and easier to call off). I've seen that too.

 

If, next time you're near car chase temptations (with AED on leash) he wants to resume chasing, you'll know you still have a problem.

 

Yes, you can solve it. No, it won't be pleasant or fun.

 

I believe an unforgettable strong correction (an aversive if you will) is more likely to make car chasing repellent to AED than distraction or displacement techniques.

 

Car chasing after the dog is fully invested in car chasing is one of the rare circumstances I would use a shock collar. You need something so powerful the dog will "hear"it and associate the unpleasantnes with the DECISION to chase. Once he's chasing, he's running on instincts which go back to his wolf ancestors. Once he's chasing he CAN'T hear.

 

Don't just go down to Petsmart and buy a shock collar. For such a "Come to Jesus" correction to work, timing is critical and novices are novices precisely because they don't have good timing. Find a trainer who routinely trains with a shock collar and pay him/her to set up a SAFE enticement for AED to chase so the trainer can apply the correction.

 

Not fun. But it beats the hell out of a dead dog.

 

Donald McCaig

[CMP]

I'm with Donald on the aversive.

 

I never strike a dog under any circumstances but I have been known to apply some very firm aversive correction (I train dogs where some things are, literally, a life and death situation and the dog must behave in a very specific way without someone there to remind it) and this is a case where I would set my brain to figuring out what memorable (and still humane and which will not destroy trust) thing I could do to that dog which would deliver the correction in one shot.

 

I yelled down, and I mean I assaulted the dog verbally, one sensitive dog. He never did it again and it took a month of careful management of his confidence. But 14 years later when he was PTS, he had been the best SaR I ever trained or worked with.

 

Another dog, I used a shock collar on. He lived to be 13.

 

Another dog I left tied to a sign post on the side of the road (I was watching from a vehicle, not to worry) for the entire night. Poor thing. But she lived 11 happy years.

 

One dog I just tried some treats and tricks and gentle persuasion. She died when she was 2, hit by a dump truck and killed instantly.

 

YMMV and my experience is just mine and is not a universal truth.

 

Just do SOMETHING serious. Once they do it once they have an adrenaline fueled kinesthetic memory and it will *call* to them. Really.

[CptJack]

I use basically no aversive training methods in regular training.

 

Unless the issue is one that will get the dog killed or hurt a person badly if not fixed in a hurry. When that's the case my goal is actually, yeah, to be aversive enough to stop it RIGHT NOW, in one shot.

 

There are very few of those instances in life, but when those occur I don't have much guilt about putting those methods in play. I can teach a dog to DO most things with positive reinforcement, and to replace most unwanted behaviors the same way. Sometimes you need a behavior to stop fast, and at that point positive punishment gets the job done.

 

I don't love doing it, but I love it more than a dead dog or injured person.

 

For my current set that only really means snake training with a professional. Sure as heck aversive to the dog, but we have venomous snakes and spend quite a bit of time out in places they like to be. They get shocked hard once and don't ever want anything to do with a snake again... or at least for years.

And I lied. I walked Thud on a prong when the weather was bad this past winter to get him past lunging at wildlife. Slick surfaces, dog bigger than me and one instance of going face down on pavement and nearly losing him into a road was enough for me to use some harsher methods than my norm.

 

Otherwise, bring on the cookies and toys.

[chene]

Thanks for the responses everyone. You've given me some interesting things to think about. In normal situations I would still be inclined to use Look At That, but since this dog park is close enough to the road and he's already very excited and running around at it, a correction of some sort might be worth my while. Thankfully cars don't go fast in this city, but you never know. I'll talk to a trainer this week.

[kingfisher7151]

I'll also support a correction. And a strong one. I also maintain as positive of methods as I can, but there are situations that need to be as unpleasant as possible. Keeper had a "Come to Jesus" meeting when he started darting into the horses' stalls to nip heels. As unpleasant as a correction may be to him, it's so much better than the alternative. If Keeper started chasing cars he'd most certainly be getting a correction.

 

I think positive methods can fix nearly anything, but no amount of cookies or praise or toys can override that desire to chase and control.

[CMP]

 

I think positive methods can fix nearly anything, but no amount of cookies or praise or toys can override that desire to chase and control.

Agreed. That sort of instinctive imperative wins over a bit of dried liver any day.

 

I also agree with everyone else who indicates this is a "fix on first try" sort of scenario. Aversive methods, imo, only work when they are unexpected, extremely rare (as in one of) and are used by someone the dog already trusts. You must have the trust first because it can be hard to get or get back.

 

So think carefully, I guess is what I am saying, about how to approach this problem.

 

Of the 11 dogs here presently, only three have ever had an aversive experience with me and none of those are any worse for the wear. Two were over chasing things and one was killing things that ought not to be killed.

 

I have seen aversive methods used on the farm, again *very* rarely, when a dog becomes dangerous to the stock. If you abused a dog around here it wouldn't take long for a posse to gather, I tell you.

[chene]

Alright, I'm back. In the past month I have tried both searching for a certified trainer to help with this, and tried using Look At That to redirect the behaviour in the meantime. I have not had any success with either. I'm at a loss. I want to set up a correction and hopefully get him turned off the behaviour for good, but every trainer i have looked at or spoken too either disagrees with non-positive methods, or has no experience with this sort of thing, and with several sessions to assess and build trust and whatnot it starts to get way too expensive for me right now. Aed is not at all better with cars. Nothing is as good as chasing them to him, which I expected, but it still doesn't help the situation. Is this something I can do myself, if I am careful and prepared enough? I don't doubt myself if I know exactly what to do, but maybe I would if I knew how hard it was. It's far from ideal, but I really don't have another choice right now. This needs to be dealt with soon.

[GentleLake]

Is this something I can do myself, if I am careful and prepared enough?

 

You don't say what "this" is, so it's hard to say if you can do it.

 

I assume you mean some sort of emphatic correction, which you alluded to earlier in the post. But without knowing what you plan to do and what experience you have, I'm not sure anyone else can answer that question for you.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Ms. Chene,

 

You can find trainers who understand corrections at NADOI or IACP. I'm uncertain about where in western Canada you are, but if you're in British Columbia, you might contact: http://naughtydogge.com, http://www.dogzies.com/#!/page/6398/waynes-philosophy,connectivetraining.com

. I've never met either trainer and suggest them only as among those who might be able to solve your problem. It is a serious problem. Your dog may well be killed.

 

But training your dog to never, ever, no-matter-what chase cars isn't rocket science. Find somebody capable and solve your problem. Push come to shove - if you cannot find any competent pet dog trainer - I'd suggest you talk to nearby sheepdog trainers. http://canadianbordercollies.org/ They may talk funny but they won't let a dog run out on the road.

 

Donald McCaig

[chene]

You don't say what "this" is, so it's hard to say if you can do it.

 

I assume you mean some sort of emphatic correction, which you alluded to earlier in the post. But without knowing what you plan to do and what experience you have, I'm not sure anyone else can answer that question for you.

 

Yes, "emphatic correction" is what I was referring to. I more want to know if it is something you absolutely need a certified trainer for. I am a bit confused about what is so difficult about timing the correction that I couldn't figure it out myself. I just need more information. Perhaps I'm wary because of the amount of times I've discussed issues with trainers before and had them say I needed private training lessons, only to go home have no problems solving it myself.

 

 

Dear Ms. Chene,

 

You can find trainers who understand corrections at NADOI or IACP. I'm uncertain about where in western Canada you are, but if you're in British Columbia, you might contact: http://naughtydogge.com, http://www.dogzies.com/#!/page/6398/waynes-philosophy,connectivetraining.com

. I've never met either trainer and suggest them only as among those who might be able to solve your problem. It is a serious problem. Your dog may well be killed.

 

But training your dog to never, ever, no-matter-what chase cars isn't rocket science. Find somebody capable and solve your problem. Push come to shove - if you cannot find any competent pet dog trainer - I'd suggest you talk to nearby sheepdog trainers. http://canadianbordercollies.org/ They may talk funny but they won't let a dog run out on the road.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Obviously this is a bigger deal than most issues, but to me it is not as life and death as it is for some people. We live in the city - downtown. My dog is very rarely off-leash, and never off leash close to roads, even if he did have no issues chasing cars. The off leash park we were at was within sight of the road, but he ran a long way before getting to it. Every other one is fenced. It's easy enough for me to not go to that part of the park in the future. I guess what I'm saying is that the difference between 95 and 100% does not have to be life-and-death for us.

 

That said, I will contact the trainer in Victoria - I didn't see her on the list of certified ones, but I trust your opinion. Money is still an issue, though, so if I can find an alternative, I will.

[htmlgirl]

FWIW, it took me several months of using a Look At That approach, on leash, daily, before I no longer had to use it and have Penny sit for every single car that went by. She now will continue walking calmly with me as cars go past, which was my desired goal. As a puppy she would lunge at them, and definitely would have chased them. I do still have to have her sit and "wait" with motorcycles and occasionally large noisy trucks, but I can now see the excited reaction starting and gain her attention when I need it before she is over threshold.

 

I started using this when she was 4 or 5 months, and it wasn't until she was close to 1 year that I really saw the consistent behaviour from her that I wanted around cars, without needing as much reinforcement. I can and do trust her now (at 19 months) off leash and outside with me on our property, which is not fully fenced. (We are in a more rural area yes, but our road does get quite busy).

 

I certainly understand the reasoning for an "emphatic correction", I just thought I'd throw my two cents in. Aed is young yet and working with him using Look At That can take time before showing you any results.

[GentleLake]

"Emphatic correction" is still not particularly descriptive, but, again from your response, it appears that you may be considering a shock collar.

 

I suppose if you're very good with timing in clicker training, you may be OK with a shock collar. If you're not, I wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot pole.

 

Be forewarned, however, that even good use of a shock collar may not be 100% effective for the life of your dog.

 

I used a shock collar once many years ago for a dog who was a car chaser. He'd been fine for a while, but then I moved to a place on a back road that I rented form people who had a rough collie who chased cars.

 

The shock collar worked. He didn't chase cars . . . for a while. I don't remember how long it was, but after a while he saw the collie chasing cars again and he started again, too.

 

I don't know if the lesson would have stuck if he'd never never seen the collie chasing cars again, but he did. By that time, I no longer had the shock collar (it was borrowed) and I wasn't willing to do it again. It wasn't pleasant, for me and certainly not for the dog.

 

I also don't know if your pup was as bad as mine. There was definitely something not wired quite right in my dog's brain. He chased (and bit) anything that moved at faster than a human walk. He'd chase bikers and joggers, too. And sheep, but even when he was corrected to the point where he wouldn't chase any more, he didn't have a clue what he should do with them instead.

 

I hope Aed isn't this bad. And I wish you well figuring out out.

 

How old is Aed? IIRC, he's pretty young to be considering something this drastic on.

 

And it can take longer than a month for desensitization and counter-conditioning to be effective, too. Are you sure you've given it a fair chance?

[chene]

I hope he's not that bad, either. I wasn't considering a shock collar exclusively. It's one of many options, and I've yet to decide if it's the best. I'm vague in my descriptions because people were vague in their suggestions. I understand the premise but not the specifics. There is a correction for car chasing described in Chaser: Unlocking the Genius etc., but it wouldn't be strong enough for Aed. He is five months, but very...I don't know, hard-headed for his age. You're right, he is young, but we can't even walk outside right now without him going crazy. I'm just not sure.

In terms of the Look at That, we've been playing it in total for about two months, but only every day since the incident a month ago. I've seen literally no change in him. We use very high value treats and he still prefers the cars. I mean, we can go far enough away that he's under threshold, but no matter what or how much we do the distance of the threshold never changes. There is always that same point when suddenly nothing matters but the cars. If you two think it's really worth it I will keep trying for another few months before doing anything else, but I feel like it's just getting worse.

[htmlgirl]

I felt like it was never going to get better too, then one day realized she was sitting and focussing her attention on me as cars passed and being very calm about it the whole time. I can tell if she's over excited by approaching vehicles, animals etc by watching her face and ears, if that helps.

 

I did find what worked best for me was using a firm "no nonsense" voice and having her sit, wait/stay, then look back at me before being released. I also decided to stop letting her practice the lunging behaviour and would hold onto her harness to keep her from lunging if I needed to. (I know this is not precisely how look at that is described in the book but it did help for us).

[CptJack]

I use a shock collar to 'snake train' my dogs - which means make them afraid of snakes via strong, strong aversion. So, this is where I am coming from with the rest of my comment.

 

Don't. This isn't the right tool for this situation.

 

The problem you are going to have is that you are not necessarily going to make your dog not chase cars. You have even odds of convincing your dog that going toward the street, or cars themselves, are terrifying and to be avoided unless you are VERY good not just at timing but at setting up the scenario. Even if you manage to get the dog to stop chasing cars using the method, you are going to then erode the aversion you worked to create when you walk the dog across the street or a car passes you on walks. Because, hey, clearly moving cars aren't that scary and neither is moving after them/behind them/around them.

 

You need to train acceptable behavior and manage until you have it. Training via one harsh correction work when they work because of the strength but also because of lack of repeated exposure teaching the dog that 'the thing' really isn't so scary after all (and even in snake training you almost always, eventually, have to repeat the lesson eventually, because of exposure to snakes or just time). Any other situation, whether you use positive or negative methods, is going to take time. If you use positive, that means months of look at that. If you use negative, that's going to be months of correcting every time he goes near the road/starts to chase while he's on a long line.

 

I know the fear, I really do, and agree that this is dangerous and I'm (obviously) not against it based on principal/objection to the method (my previous post should make that clear), but IMO this isn't a situation that will really work with one empathic correction. The situation/stimulus that's causing him to do this is simply too big a part of daily life for him not to quickly learn 'well, nothing happened THIS time'.

[Maralynn]

why not get a wide (2") collar and a long line? Continue to work on desensitizing but if he chooses to give chase sometime then you're all set to give an automatic correction

[chene]

We do use a long line now just as a back-up, he could not care less about the jerk when he gets to the end of the line though.

[GentleLake]

If you're having repeated opportunities to give a correction like that, then you haven't been working under threshold. You need to increase your distance and not give him the opportunities to react.

[Maralynn]

Yup - that^^^ What do you do for focus/engagement work with him?

[chene]

We're not having repeated opportunities. It's happened maybe once with a long line, and often with a 6 ft leash while walking. Obviously not when we're trying to work with cars. Like I said, we can't walk anywhere without it being an issue. We use the long line in parks when we are playing just in case he notices the cars from there.

[Maralynn]

Try a halti. I'm not really a fan but I think it would control his head (and therefore the rest of him) while he matures. If he's chasing cars on the end of a 6 ft leash then thats something that can be prevented. Insist on the behavior you want - block his path/view, wait him out. Insist on it from before you leave your appartment. Put yourself in a serious mode, no treats, no rewards except a calm "good" and continuing on your way. Self control works, acting crazy doesn't.

[GentleLake]

Yeah, but the problem still exists even when he's on a 6 foot leash and you're not working on it, right?

 

I know it's incredibly hard to manage, but you have to be aware of it and working on it at any and all times when there's even a remote possibility that a car could come near. "Near" meaning closer that what his threshold distance is. When you say things like "he could not care less about the jerk when he gets to the end of the line..." it sounds to me like you've had enough instances where this has happened that it's what I would call repeated opportunities.

 

I'm not criticizing you. I know how hard it can be. I have a dog who's reactive to other dogs even when she sees them on TV. I have to be alert and ready to respond in an instant because there are tons of TV commercials with dogs in them. You have o be like that with cars.

 

Mara responded while I was typing. My concern with a head halter is that if the car's going in the other direction or that he pulls to the end of the leash you might cause some damage to his neck if he lunges like you say he does in a leash. If you decide to try one, please be very careful, and work with him at the under-the-threshold distances that you know are safe for a good long while until both you and he know all about the head halter and its effects.

 

Please read this article before making a decision about trying a head halter: http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/problem-head-halters