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RE: sport people getting a Border Collie from a farm. That is no guarantee that the dog is working bred. Depends on the farm, depends on the breeder.

 

That is absolutely true.

 

However, what the trend shows me is that there is not an absolute commitment among sport enthusiasts to go to sport breeders for Border Collie puppies.

 

In fact, it seems to me that there are a good many people who are deliberately seeking elsewhere.

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And "working-bred" alone is no guarantee of good breeding. Someone can put together any working-bred dog and bitch but that doesn't mean they are good dogs expected to produce good pups in any sense of the word.

 

Which is why it is incumbent upon those who do breed for superior working ability to up their game and make a difference.

 

Only breeding when you need a replacement dog yourself doesn't work in the grand scheme of things unless there are sufficient numbers of others doing the same to satisfy the demand with the spares, whether demand from the working, sport or pet market.

 

There will always be those for whom virtually any old dog will do. Equally there are those who would be open to the idea of getting a better working dog next time, especially if not too expensive. An increased supply could bring down the price.

 

I can't believe I'm advocating breeding more but how could it hurt having an extra litter from a couple of exceptional dogs to raise the standard in the working dog population? I'm not exactly proposing starting more puppy mills.

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Exactly!!! :) And that would provide places to send people who are looking for Border Collie puppies. They might not be able to get a dog from you right now, but there would be points of contact that would help people get on a track in their search.

 

A lot of people probably would still choose sport bred Border Collies, as the supply is so plentiful (when people heard I was looking for a puppy, I was directed to several sport breeders randomly by people - not here - even though I had never asked for sport breeder references) . . . although . . . more and more people that I talk to at trials are getting their Border Collies "from farms". I don't know to what degree these farm breeders are working their Border Collies on stock but I am seeing a very noticeable shift among Border Collie enthusiasts in dog sports, at least in my area, when it comes to what they are looking for in a breeding.

 

I think there is an openness to consideration of very well working bred Border Collies in this population, but with nobody to send them to . . . they go where they can - sport breeders or random farms.

 

I know we're in a different position in the UK and where I live there is a ready supply of working / farm type dogs. We are also in the fortunate position of not having much competition from sport breeders in the area when it comes to our agility members getting new dogs.

 

Just out of interest we have 8 pups and adolescents waiting to start agility belonging to existing members - 5 bcs, 1 mostly BC and 2 welsh sheepdogs.

 

Two are rescues.

Two bought from a well known working breeder.

One from a semi working mating heard of from a friend.

One sport bred.

And the two welsh sheepdogs were bred by the owner. Sire is sport bred, dam was from a farm but has never worked.

 

No puppy mill, no pet and no conformation. And all but the welsh sheepdogs are black and white, although the word of mouth one has a merle parent.

 

I don't expect to see any difference in potential between them.

 

Further south where it is less rural and there is a higher concentration of sport breeders I get the impression that the proportion of sport to working type dogs would be higher. Most people will choose the easiest and highest profile option if they can afford it.

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Which is why it is incumbent upon those who do breed for superior working ability to up their game and make a difference.

 

Only breeding when you need a replacement dog yourself doesn't work in the grand scheme of things unless there are sufficient numbers of others doing the same to satisfy the demand with the spares, whether demand from the working, sport or pet market.

 

There will always be those for whom virtually any old dog will do. Equally there are those who would be open to the idea of getting a better working dog next time, especially if not too expensive. An increased supply could bring down the price.

 

I can't believe I'm advocating breeding more but how could it hurt having an extra litter from a couple of exceptional dogs to raise the standard in the working dog population? I'm not exactly proposing starting more puppy mills.

If two working dogs are bred but none of the pups are trained for work was this litter bred for work?

How would the breeder evaluate their breeding program if they don't keep and train a pup; do you think second hand reports tell the breeder everything about the pup's instincts?

If none of the pups are trained for work did the litter add to the working gene pool?

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But who outside your world knows that? Is an acronym the best way of inviting in newcomers? Rather a turn off for some i would have thought. What sort of page rating do their web sites have?

 

There is a list of ISDS breeders available but if I weren't already pretty savvy I would never have thought of digging deep to find it.

 

Bells and whistles and user friendliness is what is needed. Cold information is not enough.

 

I'm sure you and others already do a lot but how much of what you do is visible to outsiders?

Google search for "Border Collie Club" easily gets one to good sources of information on working Border Collies; the top site listed is the USBCC (this site). NEBCA (North East Border Collie Association) was 11th and there were many other working Border Collie clubs listed above NEBCA. But of course if puppy buyers never get beyond websites listing cute pictures of puppies they won't learn much about the breed they are looking to buy; which is not just a Border Collie issue but a society issue (impulse buying of puppy without learning what the adult dog will be).

 

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No more or less helpful than a search listing websites with puppies, some from working breeders and some from non-working breeders. All I am saying is the information is available on line to those who are willing to make the effort to look into the breed they are thinking about getting.

 

 

If puppy buyers did a search for puppies and started looking at breeders' websites how will they know which breeding ideology to accept/believe? Websites from both camps could list their ideology but those not in the know (or who don't care) will simply look at pictures and choose a pup that catches their eye, is close by, satisfies what they think is necessary for health testing, etc. The only way for the uninformed to mostly buy from working breeders is if the greatest percentage of pups on the market (and easily accessible for instant gratification) at any given time are from working breeders.

 

Do you want working breeders to continually breed pups (not bred to produce working dogs) to satisfy the non-working market? And where would you like the unsold pups to go?

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We get a lot of informal requests as to whether we have puppies for sale. Sad to say, unless you tell us you intend to work the dog we pretty much ignore you.

 

I know of many other local farmers who breed who have the same policy.

 

We might be oddities, we might not be. Dunno. Just a FYI post.

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I haven't encountered that, personally. I have encountered a lot of farmers who don't CARE where the puppy is going as long as it's going somewhere and they get their pup (the reason they bred) out of it. I don't find that particularly confidence inspiring, but there it is.

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Most border collie handlers that prove their dogs take in excess of four years to get a really solid open dog. Then they trial that dog on different sheep and different venues to give the dog experience and challenges. They are using that dog on the farm as well, because they have sheep and/or cattle. If that dog is worth breeding you are going to be taking her out of the work/ trial regime for about six months out of that year if you plan on breeding for a replacement pup.( This includes gestation, whelping and recovery time for the dog to be physically conditioned back to working levels). And most of those pups are going to already be spoken for before the breeding is made. In a way, it IS an insular world but it can be opened to the person who is persistent and researches enough. There are fine handlers with websites that show information on the handlers and their dogs but don't necessarily advertise each pup for sale.

 

Most handlers are not going to just breed a quality female back to back because she is valuable as an individual, as a trial dog, and as a farm worker to the handler. Taking a year out of the life of a good dog simply to insure there are puppies on the ground is not going to happen all that often. These people are not commercial breeders. They are breed enthusiasts who are training and trialing because they love the dogs and like to showcase their abilities. They breed to continue doing what they love to do and if you are persistent and just a little bit lucky you can eventually get a puppy from them. But puppy production is not their main concern.

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Dear Doggers,

 

This forum does one of things the internet does best: provide information. The internet is also good at selling most consumer items, new and used.

 

If you seek a puppy on the internet, the first and most prominent sites you will visit are the best designed, most internet savvy sites, not necessarily those sites that offer good puppies for sale.

 

I do not believe that without a great deal of knowledge one can safely buy a pup from any website and if one has that knowledge I cannot see why one would want to buy a pup from a website.

 

I know a couple sites which very occasionally offer pups I might be interested in. I know of none that routinely offer such pups for sale.

 

The reasons for that are complex and Ms. Toney has accurately described them. Put simply: nobody breeds their top bitch unless they want a pup themselves and nobody wants more pups than he/she has time to rear and train. Consequently toppers are scarce and unless you're already active in the trial world, it is unlikely you'll even hear about them.

 

That said: the difference between the toppers and other working bred Border Collies, for a beginner, even those intending to trial the dog, is less significant than the beginner's ability, discipline and desire. In short, most ABCA registered Border Collies off working parents will turn out pretty good. One can fairly safely buy pups from parents one has seen working and better yet, trialing - not because trial dogs are necessarily better than farm dogs but, for a beginner who literally cannot tell if a dog is working properly or not

a trial judge's opinion is useful.

 

Novice handlers are likely to be at least as picky who their pups go to as open handlers but novices' pups are more numerous and that's where I think the beginner should look for a good working bred pup.

 

Donald McCaig

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Quoted from CMP 'We get a lot of informal requests as to whether we have puppies for sale. Sad to say, unless you tell us you intend to work the dog we pretty much ignore you.' (quote function suddenly not working)

 

This is where I think breeders/farmers/ranchers need to change their attitude. It would take very little time to write a form letter, and take the 3 minutes to reply to an email, copy and paste a form letter and push send.

 

This letter should explain to the person their breeding philosophy, how limited they breed and the types of home their pups typically go to. It should also give a brief explanation of the importance of breeding for work, resources such as these boards, 'The Dog Wars' by Donald McCaig and maybe a local list of handlers clubs and rescues.

 

Ignoring these people is not helping to put a stop to BYB and breeders who don't breed with work in mind.

 

It might offend some people, and drive them away, but ignoring them has already done the same thing. But it also might just educate a few on the importance of preserving this breed.

 

I was ignored when I started looking for my pup, I even have sheep and wanted the dog to get into stock work, but I didn't have any experience yet. I was also given a ridiculous price on a pup who had been returned, and while I don't know for a fact, I think it may have been b/c I am also involved in sports.

 

Luckily, I also had some very nice people respond to me. I was on one list for an unknown, unplanned breeding and had some very nice and educational correspondence with several other people who took the time out of their lives to reach out and give me some advice. And ended up with a great pup through a contact made on these boards.

 

I had already been on these boards and had 2 border collie mix rescues so knew that it was going to be a tough search. But had I been new to this breed and not had any better idea, I would have just continued reaching out to people until someone responded back, which b/c of the advertising done by byb and sport/akc breeders the odds are probably pretty good I would have ended up with one of those dogs.

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No, it wouldn't take much time to set up a form letter.

 

I believe it is simply that no one here can be bothered.

 

I am reporting on the way our family farm works, I am not in charge of how our family farm works just yet.

 

If you wait long enough, we will GIVE you a juvenile that has been deemed unsuitable for farm work - and have been known to go back through requests and contact people to see if they still want a Border Collie. But ... meh ... people find that sort of insulting and get offended. "What if I want to learn to herd or take herding lessons or get involved in trials?" And then people here are insulted and offended. *sigh*

 

People that do not own farms or do not work sheep as part of earning a living and have no intention of doing so still want working bred dogs and are willing to pay a high price for them, usually more than a farmer can/will spend. It's tempting and I believe my family considers it honourable that they have resisted the temptation.

 

(Remember, I am reporting, not waxing my own philosophy)

 

Strange, but true.

 

Our policy is that working dogs are "sold" to working homes at whatever we have spent on them and no more. It is the belief that farmers should have access to high quality dogs without having to pay prices inflated by titles and championships in trials. Most farmers have their own dogs and these transactions tend to be more about introducing new genetic options into the lines. We have taken one or two under the same circumstances.

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CMP,

 

I certainly understand that you are just relaying your experiences of how things are handled with your family farm, and by no means meant my comments to be directed at you personally. I believe the way that your family handles contacts, is the same way that many ranches/farmers do.

 

And I by no means am implying how people sell their pups should change, nor do I think there should be increased breeding to meet the demand.

 

But I do think that communication to the general public is lacking and that there is room for improvement.

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CMP,

 

I certainly understand that you are just relaying your experiences of how things are handled with your family farm, and by no means meant my comments to be directed at you personally. I believe the way that your family handles contacts, is the same way that many ranches/farmers do.

 

And I by no means am implying how people sell their pups should change, nor do I think there should be increased breeding to meet the demand.

 

But I do think that communication to the general public is lacking and that there is room for improvement.

 

 

Oh, I *am* sorry - I did not mean my reply to sound like it was directed at yours :/

 

It is just that sometimes when I report how things are done, it comes off as my own personal actions and causes all sorts of trouble.

 

I actually think we should be selling puppies to the (qualified) general public. But let me tell you, that is not going to be an easy road for me to push my way down.

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If two working dogs are bred but none of the pups are trained for work was this litter bred for work?

How would the breeder evaluate their breeding program if they don't keep and train a pup; do you think second hand reports tell the breeder everything about the pup's instincts?

If none of the pups are trained for work did the litter add to the working gene pool?

 

I understand that people who are part timers in the the stock business or hobby triallers with regular jobs will be limited as to the number of dogs they can keep to run on.

 

Whether a breeder can keep track of the outcome of their breeding choices second hand rather depends on the network of contacts they have and how easy it is to keep in touch I suppose. Given that it isn't unknown for a pup to be sold then bought back by the breeder at a later date if it shows promise then I guess the answer is yes, it does seem to be possible.

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Most border collie handlers that prove their dogs take in excess of four years to get a really solid open dog. Then they trial that dog on different sheep and different venues to give the dog experience and challenges. They are using that dog on the farm as well, because they have sheep and/or cattle. If that dog is worth breeding you are going to be taking her out of the work/ trial regime for about six months out of that year if you plan on breeding for a replacement pup.( This includes gestation, whelping and recovery time for the dog to be physically conditioned back to working levels). And most of those pups are going to already be spoken for before the breeding is made. In a way, it IS an insular world but it can be opened to the person who is persistent and researches enough. There are fine handlers with websites that show information on the handlers and their dogs but don't necessarily advertise each pup for sale.

Most handlers are not going to just breed a quality female back to back because she is valuable as an individual, as a trial dog, and as a farm worker to the handler. Taking a year out of the life of a good dog simply to insure there are puppies on the ground is not going to happen all that often. These people are not commercial breeders. They are breed enthusiasts who are training and trialing because they love the dogs and like to showcase their abilities. They breed to continue doing what they love to do and if you are persistent and just a little bit lucky you can eventually get a puppy from them. But puppy production is not their main concern.

 

Your reply reflects the culture you are familiar but things are not the same everywhere.

 

As Maxi said earlier, trialling in the UK is pretty much the preserve of the full time farmer and shepherd. Between them and other non trialling working breeders they manage to supply of dogs for all sorts of purposes including sports which are not difficult to access.

 

No one is suggesting breeding back to back but 6 months out to have a litter? Really?

 

It's not unusual for bitches to continue to work in the early stages of pregnancy and to be back to work when the pups are weaned. Not at peak fitness obviously, but not a useless invalid either.

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I understand that people who are part timers in the the stock business or hobby triallers with regular jobs will be limited as to the number of dogs they can keep to run on.

 

Whether a breeder can keep track of the outcome of their breeding choices second hand rather depends on the network of contacts they have and how easy it is to keep in touch I suppose. Given that it isn't unknown for a pup to be sold then bought back by the breeder at a later date if it shows promise then I guess the answer is yes, it does seem to be possible.

We have 9 working Bred Border Collies;1 retiree, 5 open dogs, 1 in Ranch (ready for open), and 2 pups; 7 of our own breeding. How many more do you think we should be keeping? How many more do you think we can be training and working sufficiently to prove out working ability?

 

Second hand information about the instincts of working dogs is only as good as the stock sense and working dog sense of the people training the dogs.

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Google search for "Border Collie Club" easily gets one to good sources of information on working Border Collies; the top site listed is the USBCC (this site). NEBCA (North East Border Collie Association) was 11th and there were many other working Border Collie clubs listed above NEBCA. But of course if puppy buyers never get beyond websites listing cute pictures of puppies they won't learn much about the breed they are looking to buy; which is not just a Border Collie issue but a society issue (impulse buying of puppy without learning what the adult dog will be).[/size]

 

Acronym's again?

 

I've just googled as you suggest and without exception all the results on the first page are UK conformation clubs. And my search wasn't deliberately limited to the UK.

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Hmmmm, you think maybe google selected top hits based upon your previous searches and current location?????

 

Google does a great job searching for Acronyms. Try it.

 

Also, don't you use ISDS all the time instead of writing it all the way out? How about KC or AKC; do you write it all the way out?

 

"UK" :rolleyes:

 

 

For USBCC I suggest you look at the top of the page you're reading.

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Do you want working breeders to continually breed pups (not bred to produce working dogs) to satisfy the non-working market? And where would you like the unsold pups to go?[/size]

 

It's not either or as proved here.

 

One litter of six all going to working homes or two litters of six with three of each going to working homes and the remainder elsewhere to get a foothold amongst the public.

 

But if few people are really interested in taking on the sport / conformation / pet breeders in any practical way then what is the point of all the lengthy threads on here trying to persuade dog seekers that non working dogs should not be bred?

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One litter of 6 going to working homes??????

Is that one litter of the same cross or one litter from 6 different crosses?

 

The former will be hard on the bitch.

The latter is breeding 5 litters that are not working bred (not bred for work, bred to sell to non-working homes); without testing for work one does not know if the cross yielded good working insticts.

 

By reducing the number of pups being trained for work one looses the lateral pedigree information on instincts; one does not get carbon copies in all of the pups making if more difficult to assess the success of a cross as the percentage of the pups being trained decreases. There is a lot of value in evaluating pedigrees laterially.

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I have no business having any opinion on this, but I'm reading the thread, it's the internet and I do anyway.

 

My whole two thoughts, and they're not even worth two cents:

 

1.) Is it fair to expect people who make their living with stock and/or trial seriously to provide the public service of helping those who have no intention of doing those things find a dog? Yes, it's a service to a breed they love but their primary motivation is always going to be a dog for themselves.

 

followed closely by:

 

2.) Is it really fair to criticize people for not turning to those working breeders if the pups they want aren't available, people won't sell to them or help them find them? This board promotes these dogs as not just the ultimate stock dog but good for the right pet and performance homes as well - even saying that what makes them good stock dogs makes them good pets and performance/sports dogs.

 

People do need to learn to be patient, need to look at rescues, need to be prepared to network if they want something from the people who have the dogs.


Likewise, I really can't help thinking that if you want those pet and performance homes to HAVE these dogs and promote them that you want something from the puppy buying general public (and you do if you want them to consider working bred dogs) and giving a little in return would not be a bad thing. Even if it's nothing more than timely replies to emails or a generic list of links that a newbie would find useful.

 

Something has to give somewhere, and probably on both sides. Mostly, you can't have it both ways. People need to be putting in the legwork on their own and not expect to find a puppy this week (or month or maybe even year) but you can not tell them to go to a working breeder for a puppy and then make it nearly impossible for them to get that puppy.

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Your reply reflects the culture you are familiar but things are not the same everywhere.

As Maxi said earlier, trialling in the UK is pretty much the preserve of the full time farmer and shepherd. Between them and other non trialling working breeders they manage to supply of dogs for all sorts of purposes including sports which are not difficult to access.

No one is suggesting breeding back to back but 6 months out to have a litter? Really?

It's not unusual for bitches to continue to work in the early stages of pregnancy and to be back to work when the pups are weaned. Not at peak fitness obviously, but not a useless invalid either.

IMO Many of the main triallists in the UK (who are also shepherd/farmers) often keep relatively large kennels. They bring on several pups per year to train. Those started dogs that don't make their exacting standards and/ or suit their working style are sold on as started dogs to other triallists or to the farmng community ( who don't have the time &/or experience to start training a dog to work stock)

 

However, even with this turn-over many only produce a litter of their own every one to 2 years. The pups that many start are 'service pups' that they obtain in lieu of stud fees. Bringing up a litter takes time and money. As others have already said many only want to breed their own bitches infrequently.

 

JMO YMMV

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As a sports person and a future puppy buyer, it is my opinion that it is unfair to expect breeders of working dogs to change their breeding practices, culture, and advertising practices to accommidate the sport and pet market. Because afterall, these people are in the business of breeding working dogs, not pet or sport dogs.

 

As a consequnce of maintaining the status quo in the working dog world (which I think is perfectly acceptable), people who are not interested in working livestock may buy their pups from sport and AKC breeders. I also think that this is acceptable (albeit not ideal) and simply represents a reality in the marketplace.

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