Anti merle prejudice

[TEC]

...You seem to think farm work involves precision, I don't. How many require sheep to move in a straight line when doing farm chores (stand there flanking the dog to fix the line) as opposed to doing something else while waiting on your dog to bring you the sheep?

Well, I hardly trial at all, and just last week did a long silent gather of about 30 sheep, intentionally moving my position about 40 yards left/right several times each direction, while Josie brought them to me. My dog kept those sheep balanced on her own every time I moved. She checks-in on the flanks to my position as she wears a large group. Not straight, but right. I do that exercise to encourage straight/direct silent fetches. -- TEC

[Mark Billadeau]

Nice training session, but was that really farm chores? Did you need to move those sheep?

[TEC]

Mark, I am not going to say that exact maneuver, as described, was necessary for something that needed doing to manage that flock at that exact moment. I was on the hill grazing, and often intersperse exercises to maintain my sanity, and to improve our skills. In fact, it was an unusual direction for a fetch, chosen because I felt the sheep and dog would not recognize it as a normal way to the field or return to the pens. It was the type of gather I want my dog to do correctly in a real situation without a word/whistle from me. -- TEC

[Mark Billadeau]

Let's just leave it at, I suspect observing trials and/or competing in trials raises a shepherd's expectation of their dog's work that they would not have had they never observed dogs trialing. The same can be said for a shepherd's handling of dogs.

 

It comes back to how trials got started.

 

My farm dog is better than your farm dog.

I don't believe it based upon what my dog can do on my farm.

Let's see who has the better dog.........

 

If one's experience with working dogs is limited to 20-30 they have seen locally; how does one know if what they are breeding is as good as what is in the rest of the gene pool? This is my same issue with only attending a few local trials.

[MossyOak]

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[juliepoudrier]

Tom,

The biggest issue I have with your comments is that you seem to be generalizing from the trials you have seen to all trials.

Anyway, I think it's difficult to make an argument about what trials test or don't test if you haven't traveled to trials around the country and experienced or at least observed the varied terrains and types of sheep (cattle, goats) being worked.

 

I also have not heard trial folks wanting dogs with eye. To the contrary, most handlers I talk to have said they prefer a looser eyed dog because such dogs won't fight you when you're micromanaging out there.

 

To be honest, I will sometimes allow rougher work at home, and at other times I will require more precision or carefulness. I rarely send a dog and then command it as it brings the stock to me; usually I'm taking that time to get wormer ready, to set up for the shearer, or do whatever. I will allow a dog to grip at home (and expect it, especially if a ram is getting a little too bold), but expect the dog to be more careful in a trial situation. What I like best about these dogs is that they can adjust to our demands and needs depending on the situation.

 

And as Sue noted, the dogs that can handle going from east to west (and north to south) and anywhere in between and handle the stock they meet at whatever location at which they land are dogs that I admire. (Yes, some of their success is certainly handler related, but not even the best handler can make a dog handle stock that the dog simply can't handle.)

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

MossyOak,

It's really not ACK breeders who are rushing out to breed merle dogs, since it's generally B&W dogs that are put up at shows and that's where the demand is. Most of the fun colors/patterns being bred are being bred by sport breeders or pet breeders.

 

J.

[Tommy Coyote]

Obedience people really like unusual colors.

 

I'm not crazy about merles but it's just personal preference. The only one I was around was a sheep killer. His herding instinct was alll jacked up. He was very keen but i wouldn't have trusted him with stock. He was all hunt prey kill.

[Eileen Stein]

And yes merle bred to merle is a bad idea. But where are all these Homozygous merle being bred. I just have not seen any evidence of this being done by real working breeders. And I doubt if it is that commonly found in the ACK. Since the offspring of this type of mating are not that sellable.

 

The people who intentionally breed merle to merle are not aiming to sell their homozygous merle offspring (unless possibly to other breeders like themselves). They are aiming to breed them, because if they breed them to a non-merle, they know that every pup in the resulting litter will be merle, because each pup will have one M allele from the double merle parent, and one m allele from the non-merle parent. And merle pups are very sellable.

 

Then there are the people who negligently breed merle to merle, not knowing the health ramifications. And the people who breed merle to merle not knowing one is a merle (see cryptic merles). I agree that none of these breedings are a problem with real working border collie breeders. But I suppose the point that some are making is that they could become a problem in the future, if merles become more prevalent in the breed, as they are in breeds like the Australian Shepherd.

[TEC]

Tom,

The biggest issue I have with your comments is that you seem to be generalizing from the trials you have seen to all trials.

Anyway, I think it's difficult to make an argument about what trials test or don't test if you haven't traveled to trials around the country and experienced or at least observed the varied terrains and types of sheep (cattle, goats) being worked.

 

I also have not heard trial folks wanting dogs with eye. To the contrary, most handlers I talk to have said they prefer a looser eyed dog because such dogs won't fight you when you're micromanaging out there.

 

To be honest, I will sometimes allow rougher work at home, and at other times I will require more precision or carefulness. I rarely send a dog and then command it as it brings the stock to me; usually I'm taking that time to get wormer ready, to set up for the shearer, or do whatever. I will allow a dog to grip at home (and expect it, especially if a ram is getting a little too bold), but expect the dog to be more careful in a trial situation. What I like best about these dogs is that they can adjust to our demands and needs depending on the situation.

 

And as Sue noted, the dogs that can handle going from east to west (and north to south) and anywhere in between and handle the stock they meet at whatever location at which they land are dogs that I admire. (Yes, some of their success is certainly handler related, but not even the best handler can make a dog handle stock that the dog simply can't handle.)

J.

We are getting some excellent trials in this area of the NW. I have observed or run in most of them on this side of the Cascade Mountains. I watch a ton of trial video from all over the world, and read as much as I can. I feel that is a good sampling. Of course I have heard of the half-mile OLF's but they are the exceptions. I challenge any trial to have a steeper outrun, along with visibility issues, than the Dirt Blowing SDT near Dayton, WA that ran for years. Watched a UK video that looked pretty similar.

 

Have seen some dogs that freeze-up at trials on drives and outruns, and have always felt that their eye was partly responsible. Maybe it's poor handling or just the sheep, I am not sure. Josie when at her best can avert eye to get a challenging ewe to turn back into a group. My little dog needs more eye for some situations. She at times appears to engage in a casual conversation about the weather with her sheep. Like you say, after trying other measures, she can on command get them moving, and not always without a mild grip. That is a wonderful feature of the BC. For her, anyway, a little more eye would help. I agree that in general strong eye is not favored in competition.

 

True, a Border Collie who can handle trials and sheep all over the country on challenging courses in varying conditions is one great dog by many standards.-- Regards, TEC

[Sue R]

Not a Border Collie but rather a Rough Collie real-life scenario - a double-merle stud dog used to produce merle pups a number of whom happen to do very well in the show ring. One of his offspring was top Rough Collie at Westminster, perhaps, just within the last few years. He's produced winners and is used for stud, even though what we would consider totally irresponsible breeding produced him (and then kept him intact and used him for stud to produce merle pups).

 

As pointed out, the reason for a merle-to-merle breeding is not simply that (on average) 3/4 of the offspring will be "saleable" merles (minus the 1/4 on average that will be homozygous, and likely deaf and/or blind or hearing/vision-impaired) - versus a merle-to-non-merle breeding where (on average) only half the pups will be merle - is that a homozygous merle stud or bitch will produce only merle.

 

When flashy or rare color pups sell well and for a premium versus the plain old black-and-white or tri-colored black-and-white, it is a temptation to produce them. For those without ethics, it's easily an overwhelming temptation. What's a little collateral damage?

 

It seems to me if you own a merle, even one from proven working and trial winning parents. It is assumed that your goal, or the breeder goal was a dog of a certain color. And the comparison to ACK breeders is drawn. So what, because they may be making decisions based on color. That paints working Border Collies of the same pattern with the same brush. And yes merle bred to merle is a bad idea. But where are all these Homozygous merle being bred. I just have not seen any evidence of this being done by real working breeders. And I doubt if it is that commonly found in the ACK. Since the offspring of this type of mating are not that sellable. So I just can't see avoiding breeding a proven working merle dog, out of fear of allowing more heterozygous merles into the gene pool. In any case color fads come and go and the ACK breeders may very well move on too a new color to exploit. Though for accuracy sake merle is not a color but a coat pattern, as is sable.

[Gloria Atwater]

Sorry about that! I don't really know anything USBCHA "trailing"(if that is what it is referred to as), or really anything about working ability.

 

Basically the bolted part is what I meant. But this breeder was even more selective, due to want a "candy color", rather than an "original" color.

 

I hope that makes sense. I'm horrible at explaining.

 

 

No problem, I get my words tangled up, too.

 

But here is the thing. No breeder of working dogs is going to accidentally produce a candy colored dog.

 

You originally said:

Lets say that a breeder puts working ability above everything else..... But, lets say, that this same breeder will also pick out a dog based on what it's color is. There is no merle to merle breeding's

 

What you must understand is that it is physically impossible for a true, traditionally-colored pair of border collies to produce a "candy" color such as "lilac" or "slate" or "gold" or any kind of merle. If you breed strictly for work, you get the dominant traditional colors. You can't breed black to black and get "lilac."

 

Now, sometimes a working-line breeder can be surprised when his black-and-white bitch and sire produce a tri color or even red pup seemingly out of the blue, and once in great while, I've seen a border collie come out a sort of odd blue-brown. Genetics are funny things. But if the breeder is putting working ability above everything else, he will not find the real "candy" colors among his pups.

 

The only way "candy" colors occur is if a breeder selects specifically for those rare and dilute color genes to get the "lilac" or "slate" or "gold" colors. And the gene pool for the "candy" colors is so very much smaller, that this breeder will have no choice but to bypass working ability to focus on getting those colors.

 

Does that help explain? The situation you're thinking of, as I understand it, simply cannot exist. Candy colors do not happen by accident.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

 

 

 

 

[MossyOak]

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[workindogs]

Dilute (ie. blue, slate, lilac) and red can "pop up" unexpectedly…….but not merle.

 

A friend of mine who is well known on the West and East coasts as a shepherd and for very well bred, well thought out working breeding once accidentally (truly, she was horrified) a litter from two dark traditional black and white dogs from known top working genetics……3 blues, 1 red and 1 excessively white….all in the same litter.

[GentleLake]

I suppose it's possible for merle to show up unexpectedly, but only if one of the parents were a cryptic (aka phantom) merle.

 

Even then, one of the grandparents would have to have been merle, so even if it were unexpected, it would be easily explainable. (Hope that makes sense.)

[ziggzmom]

Obedience people really like unusual colors..

I've been showing in obedience for more than 25 years in CA and haven't found this to be true. Maybe in other parts of the country?

[Mark Billadeau]

We are getting some excellent trials in this area of the NW. I have observed or run in most of them on this side of the Cascade Mountains. I watch a ton of trial video from all over the world, and read as much as I can. I feel that is a good sampling.

I doubt reading or watching videos really gives you a good perspective about a trial or the work the dogs are required to do. This is based upon my experiences watching videos from trials and runs I've seen in person. The lens and editing leaves out the bits that give you perspective on just how good the good runs were.

 

[TEC]

I doubt reading or watching videos really gives you a good perspective about a trial or the work the dogs are required to do. This is based upon my experiences watching videos from trials and runs I've seen in person. The lens and editing leaves out the bits that give you perspective on just how good the good runs were.

I know high level trialers who watch a good deal of video, and believe it's an accepted part of the curriculum to learn the craft. After watching many, I quickly realized which 10 minute videos should be clicked through in one minute, and which ones to study. Sure, the camera angle and editing distorts, but questions give a person reason to contact the people who were present or running to clarify things. Videos can be viewed to simply learn from the portions they clearly portray. You don't have to watch each video for the purpose of judging an entire run, however many of them are well produced, good from start to finish. Videos and books are excellent learning tools when used in conjunction with field training and running/attending trials. I recommend them. -- TEC

[Mark Billadeau]

You were using your trial attendance and video observations to justify your knowledge about wide range trial difficulty, in terms of these as a test (or insufficient test) for breeding selection. Your comments above do not support that your are using these videos to get a sense of the test provided by each trial; your comments address your use of these for training and handling education. You really need to watch many complete runs of each trial (not just a few clips of a few runs) to get a sense of the test prodived by that trial. The difficutly of the sheep and/or terrain will be hidden by a great team having a good run. If you really want to learn how difficult of a test the trial is, sit with the judge for hours watching run after run (and I mean watch the runs as if you were judging).

 

 

 

As Julie stated

Anyway, I think it's difficult to make an argument about what trials test or don't test if you haven't traveled to trials around the country and experienced or at least observed the varied terrains and types of sheep (cattle, goats) being worked.

 

 

 

So do you really have experience in a wide range in trials (terrain, sheep, field size, etc) as opposed to a few local/region trials be able to know if trial performance is an (in)sufficient test for breeding selection?

[d112358]

As pointed out, the reason for a merle-to-merle breeding is not simply that (on average) 3/4 of the offspring will be "saleable" merles (minus the 1/4 on average that will be homozygous, and likely deaf and/or blind or hearing/vision-impaired) - versus a merle-to-non-merle breeding where (on average) only half the pups will be merle - is that a homozygous merle stud or bitch will produce only merle.

 

The math's off on this one - a (heterozygous) merle to merle breeding will produce on average half heterozygous merle, 1/4 homozygous merle, and 1/4 non-merle. That puts the 'saleable' merle fraction equivalent as a merle to non-merle breeding.

[GentleLake]

^^ Yep. That's why I never understood why anyone would ever breed merle to merle and risk producing an average of 25% defective pups.

 

And that was when people still culled them rather than letting them live such handicapped lives, and before someone got the bright idea that breeding a homozygous merle to a solid dog (often with recessives for other candy colors) would result in an all merle litter.

 

(*#^*%*)&*%%#$% heartless, greedy bastards.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Watching videos and runs is nothing like doing the real thing on a tough Open course such as the Finals, Fire ridge, LaCamas, Blue Grass to name a few. I went ot the Finals quite confident but DQ with both dogs....bad handling on one set and runaway sheep on the other. Then the two trials right after we smoked….it sure ain’t easy.

It’s like me watching a few bikes races, going to a few events and then going for a spin around the block on my three speed bike, then acting like I am the authority.I am sure the Tour-de France folks will be beating down my door for my advice. Do the walk, not the talk.

 

I have had students who read lots of books, internet and watched videos, but their dogs wouldn’t listen to them in the round pen but by God, every time I offered them some advice, they answered back with some quote from some video they watched or book they read that was far better advice than I offered. They never got out of the round pen but sure was one of the top authorities on herding and sheep.

 

Reading and watching runs is nothing like being at the post at an tough Open trial and thinking, “Hum, those sheep are breaking hard to the left, one ewe is charging at the setout dog and what direction am I going to send my dog to cover this?”

[Sue R]

Thanks for the correction. Under a bit of stress lately and not thinking straight...

[TEC]

Mark, I: trained my own farm bred border collie from a puppy, attend/run/assist at trials, practice, participate in clinics, have a top notch coach/mentor who judges often and runs at the Finals regularly, assist lambing and shearing at a major sheep operation, work/talk with Peruvian a1H herders, learned from shepherds, teach, write for publication, and help small farms manage their stock and with lambing. Kept my own stock, tromped wool and dipped sheep. Yes, and for a variety of reasons I enjoy watching quality video of world-wide: farm operations, herding dog trials, and transhumances, supplemented by reading good periodicals, books and manuals.

Pagel, I'm not sure what your friend/student has to do with the farm-trial dog dichotomy.

That's me. Take it, or leave it. Now do you want to start discussing the actual issues, or just dance around in an attempt to belittle my knowledge? -- TEC

[Liz P]

A few years ago a very famous stud dog owned by a very famous handler in the UK produced a litter of pups. I remember seeing comments about the pups because both the stud owner and bitch owner were shocked by the colors they got. Tri color (black) stud dog bred to black and white bitch. There were reds, blues and lilacs. Maybe one black and white in the whole litter. It happens. But, given that dilute and red are recessive, to get those colors more often hints that a breeder is selecting for the colors.

 

I would take a merle in a heartbeat, IF it met my standards as a working dog. That hasn't happened yet.

 

To those who say trial people don't like eye: Well, I like it a lot. Friends of mine like it. I am working to put it back in a dog that someone else started. There are trial people who want it in their dogs. I am very pleased to see my pup showing good eye already. It is one of the defining characteristics of the breed and very useful. I hope we don't lose it because some are selecting against it.