What's your ideal border collie look like?

[Gideon's girl]

The paved path is probably less than 2 feet in front of the dog. They walked it between the 2 trees, turned it around, snapped pictures, and then let the poor puppy get back on the paved path. It's pulse is still pounding all this time later.

[geonni banner]

I've met a few of these. Sweet, but only half there, compared to a real working bred Border Collie. Nice enough dogs, but not to my taste, even as a pet. I feel bad for them. Neither fish nor fowl, and so much coat to care for... The ones that aren't kenneled to protect their coats for show so often just end up in back yards going slowly insane. Bark, bark, bark. Pace, pace, pace. The show dogs seem a strange combination of spaced out and hyper.

[Tess's Girl]

Upon further consideration, I believe that the handsomest Border Collie I have ever seen would be Betty Gillis's Stella. And I present the evidence for this contention in the form of a photo by Betty herself.

 

Stella & the Karakuls 4.jpg

 

Blue eyes and indescribable coat notwithstanding (or possibly because of) She is possibly the handsomest dog of any kind I've ever seen!

 

I forgot about Stella! She is absolutely beautiful. What would you even call that pattern/color combination?

 

Someone mentioned being able to see dogs better at a distance. I love my Tess dearly and I think she beautiful but I can't see her from a distance to save my life.

 

And I also love ticking.

[SS Cressa]

**hang head in shame** I think a lot of show bred border collies are adorable. Love their expression and overall appearance.

 

And can we please stop vilifying the owner and the dogs?! Not all owners of show border collies are awful. Most love and TRAIN their dogs. Nor do all show border collies live a pamper life.

[FireFly]

Some of these BC's are absolutely gorgeous. Stella is definitely a favorite of mine in the BC world.

 

My least ideal BC, is this. I would have no issues if this "look" was no longer bred for.S

 

And this

Basically, my "ideal" BC isn't, a conformation bred, or "barbie" collie. I prefer BC's with less coat. However, some rough coated BC's do appeal to me. What I've noticed is that conformation bred BC's are much more thick,& compact than your average working, or sport bred BC. Which I do not like at all.

 

What is my ideal BC look like?

 

Preferred Weight? Is anywhere from 30- 45 lbs.

Height? Doesn't really matter all that much to me.

Coat? I like most coat types, but BC's with too much coat irritate me. I really love curly coated BC's

 

Colors?

Brindle Merle

 

Blue Merle

 

Ticked, especially like this

And this BC(who is related to Stella)

 

More Stella pictures can be found here

http://flickrhivemind.net/User/Betty%20Gillis/Interesting

I forgot about Stella! She is absolutely beautiful. What would you even call that pattern/color combination?

 

Someone mentioned being able to see dogs better at a distance. I love my Tess dearly and I think she beautiful but I can't see her from a distance to save my life.

 

And I also love ticking.

 

 

Heavy ticking with Tan(?)

 

[Gideon's girl]

WOW!! I've never seen a brindle merle before. I really like that color.

[Riika]

My ideal dog, that I'll probably never find, is a prick-eared, long tailed, rough coated, black and white w/ticking, female. Preferably a bigger one-40 pounds or so. The mental qualities won't be listed as the topic asks what it looks like.

[gcv-border]

WOW!! I've never seen a brindle merle before. I really like that color.

Me either. Order one for me!

[GentleLake]

 

What a strange looking head. Very rounded skull and blunt muzzle for a border collie. I don't like it at all.

 

 

 

Now that's a cool looking dog! If it works livestock, it'd be totally awesome!

[juliepoudrier]

Is that really brindle? Looks more like some sort of sable merle to me. But I'm guessing someone would have to be trying to get that color....

 

J.

[GentleLake]

^^ Probably someone trying, I agree. I can't condone trying for it, but it's still pretty cool. If I found one in a working litter, I'd go for it.

[juliepoudrier]

Stella,

I believe I've read this entire thread and I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about awful owners? Yes, a couple of folks have posted pics of show bred dogs and said they don't like the look, but I don't see how one can make a leap from that to villifying owners of show bred dogs.

 

J.

[CptJack]

 

And can we please stop vilifying the owner and the dogs?! Not all owners of show border collies are awful. Most love and TRAIN their dogs. Nor do all show border collies live a pamper life.

 

I don't think anyone has said a negative word about people who OWN conformation collies, nor said that the dogs themselves were awful. Just that they're not border collies, they don't find conformation collies attractive and they don't have the structure to work.

 

Which is fair enough, given the board we are on.

[SS Cressa]

I've met a few of these. Sweet, but only half there, compared to a real working bred Border Collie. Nice enough dogs, but not to my taste, even as a pet. I feel bad for them. Neither fish nor fowl, and so much coat to care for... The ones that aren't kenneled to protect their coats for show so often just end up in back yards going slowly insane. Bark, bark, bark. Pace, pace, pace. The show dogs seem a strange combination of spaced out and hyper.

The paved path is probably less than 2 feet in front of the dog. They walked it between the 2 trees, turned it around, snapped pictures, and then let the poor puppy get back on the paved path. It's pulse is still pounding all this time later.

And probably photoshopped the dog into the scenery.

 

Does that dog look like it ever gets to experience the joy of running in the woods?

They photoshopped out the tight leash that was stringing up the poor mutt.

Sorry my mistake. The above post are not criticizing or putting down owners of show dogs or the show dogs themselves. Comment off of a picture of "Half bright, cant get dirty, mutt, string up, insane, hyper, heart pounding being off the beaten path" are all positive things people mention and shows no criticism about the show border collie in The picture or the type of care/training that dog received.

[SS Cressa]

If it isnt your ideal border collie why post a picture of it to begin with?

[CptJack]

Yes. Those are absolutely negative remarks.

About a concept, associated with a dog on the picture of a magazine posted as an example of said concept. That people here don't like - as a concept.

 

I promise you absolutely the dog did not get its feelings hurt, and does not care. The owner of that dog MIGHT, if they were here. I kind of doubt it. I also doubt, seriously, if that picture was posted by a member about a dog that was owned the remarks would have been ABOUT THE DOG in general and why it's not their preference or a border collie, rather than quite as disparaging as they were.

 

Because they weren't about that particular dog. They were offended remarks about what that dog stands for.

(That picture was posted, I believe, as an example after talk of stops/lack of stops/examples of types came into play - or shortly thereafter. Ie: "I like this but not that." It's relevant.)

[SS Cressa]

Lol CptJack we can agree to disagree since those type of comments dont sound like it is just about the "concept". They just were very rude and derogatory.

If it was just about lack of stop or skull shape or eyes or expression that is one thing since it pertains to the topic.

[Gideon's girl]

My comment about them photoshopping out the leash was a statement of fact. And if you look at the fur line under the dogs chin, you will see for yourself the evidence that it was strung up, as is normal practice in the showring. The only possibly disparaging thing about that statement was me calling it a mutt. But since Barbie Collies are not Border Collies, I think of them as mutts. And I have no issues with mutts, so even that isn't really disparaging, just a label.

 

My other comment about what they did to get the shot is probably fairly accurate considering what they do to get magazine cover shots and the equipment necessary. The statement about it's pulse still pounding was due to the Barbie Collies I personally do know, and their owner says much the same thing about her own dogs.

[GentleLake]

And my comment about the dog being photoshopped into the scenery and not looking like it's been running in the woods is based on the photo.

 

That dog sure doesn't look like it's been running in the woods. Too clean, too immaculately groomed.

 

The whole thing just looks disingenuous to me. If you want to interpret that as vilification, I guess that's your prerogative.

 

Have we maybe hit on a bit of a sore spot for you here? You're free to like the look. As others of us are free not to.

[rushdoggie]

To be fair, the clean dog is in a photo and was probably groomed and primped for a picture. I myself have taken posed photos with my dogs where I have brushed them out and posed them on rocks, logs etc. I'm not sure its fair to call it disingenuous.

[geonni banner]

Vilify, eh?

: to lower in estimation or importance

2

: to utter slanderous and abusive statements against : defame

— vil·i·fi·er noun

1. He was vilified in the press for his comments.
2. <claimed that she had been vilified by the press because of her conservative views>

Origin of VILIFY

Middle English vilifien, from Late Latin vilificare, from Latin vilis cheap, vile

First Known Use: 15th century

Related to VILIFY Synonyms asperse, blacken, calumniate, defame, libel, malign, smear, traduce, slander Nope. Not villifying the dog or the owner. Just saying what I see. And what I see makes me very sad. For the dog. For the plan behind bringing it about. And about the circumscribed life it doubtless leads. I've seen too much of it. Heck, I did a little of it. Then I drank of the Border Collie Boards kool-aid, and the scales fell from my eyes. Do I hate 'em? Dogs or people? Nope. I do wish they'd wake up. And you couldn't give me a dog like that with water cress 'round it. Would I save it from being run over by a bus? Oh, hell yes! It's a dog. Just not a Border Collie...

[KaliFreya]

It's really hard to say, but if I have to choose one type that I partciularly like, it would be lean, light, pricked ears black and white. However, recently I've fallen in love with reds, and also smoothies, so I'll add a picture of one girl I know from my agility club, who is gorgeous to me.
I have a soft side for blue merles also Maybe one day...

That being said, mine has tipped ears, she is a bit on the heavier side, but still looks working/sporty enough for my taste. Plus she is my rescue girl, so to me she will always be perfect.

[mum24dog]

Some of these BC's are absolutely gorgeous. Stella is definitely a favorite of mine in the BC world.

 

My least ideal BC, is this. I would have no issues if this "look" was no longer bred for.S

 

And this

Basically, my "ideal" BC isn't, a conformation bred, or "barbie" collie. I prefer BC's with less coat. However, some rough coated BC's do appeal to me. What I've noticed is that conformation bred BC's are much more thick,& compact than your average working, or sport bred BC. Which I do not like at all.

 

What is my ideal BC look like?

 

Preferred Weight? Is anywhere from 30- 45 lbs.

Height? Doesn't really matter all that much to me.

Coat? I like most coat types, but BC's with too much coat irritate me. I really love curly coated BC's

 

Colors?

Brindle Merle

 

Blue Merle

 

Ticked, especially like this

And this BC(who is related to Stella)

 

More Stella pictures can be found here

http://flickrhivemind.net/User/Betty%20Gillis/Interesting

 

 

Heavy ticking with Tan(?)

 

 

From the top -

 

1 Is there anybody home?

 

2 A friend has one identical to that one - sport / show bred. I find him ugly (more because of what he represents than what he looks like himself) but most people comment on how handsome he is. Doesn't mean I don't like that particular dog. I expect she finds my short coated wonky eared b/ws ugly and I can live with that. To be fair, her dog has a very nice temperament and has a great work ethic for what she does with him. His main disadvantage in agility is his shortness of leg but his enthusiasm has still taken him to the top grade. He is spoiled rotten in many ways but his life is doggy heaven with loads of exercise and interesting stuff to do and an owner who loves him to bits.

 

3 My pup's sire is quite curly and I chose a short coated one to avoid it. I always think Laekenois when I see that much curl. My opinion is probably coloured by the fact that the only dog I have known that was that curly wasn't a very nice dog at all. We aren't always rational in such things.

 

4 Brindle or not, I always wonder where the brindle has come from. I've never seen it in a pure bred bc in the UK. I don't like fancy coat colours.

 

5 Merles - no.

 

6 Yes, yes, yes.

 

7 Not sure from the photo. Probably one that wouldn't grab me initially but I could learn to love.

 

ETA I guess for some people it's easier to say what they don't like rather than what they do because there is such a wide range of types they do find attractive.

[juliepoudrier]

Stella,

What I don't understand is that you are a long time member of this forum and you know very well the attitude (general) of this forum toward breeding border collies for conformation showing. No one has ever actually put you down personally here, have they? And yet we know that you have (or have had) conformation-bred dogs. So I'm not sure why you continue to get upset over conversations such as this one. Surely, being here as long as you have been you can predict just how these discussions will go?

 

It is clearly stated in the "Read This First" thread, pinned to the top of every section of this forum, what the philosophy of this board (or the parent organization of this board) is when it comes to breeding border collies for conformation showing. Surely you've read that, and if not, I know for a fact that it's been pointed out in many discussions in which you have taken part.

 

I'm sorry that you don't appreciate the attitude that many of us have toward conformation-bred border collies, but it is an attitude that is in keeping with the philosophy of this forum and its parent organization.

 

I don't think anyone has ever intended (or even actually done so) to insult you or your dogs personally, and I don't think anyone has ever responded to a picture you have posted of your own dogs by villifying you or them (or even by making subtle or underhanded comments).

 

But the fact remains that many of us do not find the show bred dogs to be attractive, and in a thread whose specific point is to discuss what we like (and don't like) in the appearance of a dog, why would it come as a surprise that we don't like the look of the typical show bred border collie? They do, in general, look different than what most of us are used to seeing and working with. And many of us don't like that look. And as was pointed out somewhere research into noise phobia, etc., undertaken at the University of California even found that at least the Australian show lines are now a separate genetic branch (that is, they are genetically different from the general border collie population, enough so that when they are graphed genetically they appear as a separate breed). That's what breeding for conformation has done for the border collie.

 

I don't like a bulbous forehead on a border collie. Many show collies (see the side view of the merle that was posted; dog #2 in Mum24dog's post above) have that very look. I think it's ugly at worst, and at best makes the dog look like about a gazillion other KC type dogs, including the Australian Shepherd and Bernese Mountain dog, both of which have the exact same head shape. I don't like the look that results from ears that have been glued on puppies to get that weird curled, sideways tipped look that you don't see naturally on any border collie. I'm not that fond of merle (or other candy colors), although I think that's in part the result of where the demand for merle dogs resides (and of course the breeding practices that go in to producing it). If you find my stating of those preferences insulting to you personally or to the owners of such dogs then I think you have to consider practicing the "you can't change someone else, only how you respond/react to them" philosophy.

 

I have a mostly white working border collie. I can't tell you how many times over the years I have heard working dog folk say disparaging things about mostly white dogs. I don't take it personally. I have a good dog, and even the people who believe that sheep won't respect a white dog can see in practice (I set sheep at a lot of trials) that the sheep do, in fact, respect MY white dog. I have had red dogs. Many working folks dislike red dogs too. Not their color preference. They think they don't hold up over time. They think they're weak. And yet, my red dogs have been good workers and have lived to ripe old ages. I guess every time a discussion comes up about white dogs or red dogs I could rail against those "anti" folks for villifying what I like, but why bother? I'm not going to change anyone's mind, and I don't need to. <-- A philosophy like this can really help with the blood pressure, by the way.

 

My two cents and then some.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Mum24dog,

Brindle is just another version of a tri color dog. I have a friend whose dog was brindled just where the tan would show on the legs of a black tri dog. Elsewhere he looked like a regular B&W border collie. His parents came over from Australia with a shipment of goats back when it was still possible to ship in ruminants. I never saw pictures of them so have no idea if my friend's dog was an anomaly or whether his parent(s) were also brindled.

 

There is someone who used to post here and I think still reads here, under the name BrndlBC, who has brindles. I've never paid close attention, but they do pop up. That's not a bad thing. But of course there are also now people who deliberately breed for it, which places them in my mind squarely in the camp with the candy color breeders.

 

P.S. Your #7 could be the dog in my avatar, if she were red. Love that look!

 

J.