I need advice on this situation with Akitas and our BC

[CMP]

Sounds wise. The nipping would be the thing I would concentrate on as well.

 

Good luck.

[HJTRAS]

her nipping is a aggravating issue. you kind of get used to it but when you see she drew blood then you realize how un acceptable it really is. thing is she never is mean its just her instincts overdrive

[CptJack]

There are a lot of people who have border collies who seem to think that anything that might be herding instinct should never, ever be discouraged or corrected. I'm not saying you're one of those people. I just know a lot of people who seem to think anything related to herding instinct in a border collie is somehow sacrosanct. and getting into big trouble further down the line. So, I'm kind of responding to your remark about wanting to encourage her instincts.

 

Herding is nothing more or less than modified prey-drive. Unless it's directed at livestock, it's not even herding - it's just harassment and bad behavior. You're not going to squash those instincts out of her by not letting her be a jerk to people or dogs, I promise, or only letting that drive and desire be focused on appropriate things - be that really herding, or chasing a ball. All that's being encouraged by letting her nip at you is a nipping habit.

 

If I'm saying something you already know or am reading wrong, please don't be offended. I'm not trying to be patronizing or make assumptions and am just going on a little bit I've seen in this thread. I haven't been around long enough or consistently enough to know your story with her or anything about you or your dog.

All that other stuff aside: Nipping/Biting puppies are somehow the WORST. Molly's never been bad, but my GOD, the GSD mix was apparently made of teeth his first year.

[Maralynn]

There are a lot of people who have border collies who seem to think that anything that might be herding instinct should never, ever be discouraged or corrected. I'm not saying you're one of those people. I just know a lot of people who seem to think anything related to herding instinct in a border collie is somehow sacrosanct. and getting into big trouble further down the line. So, I'm kind of responding to your remark about wanting to encourage her instincts.

 

Herding is nothing more or less than modified prey-drive. Unless it's directed at livestock, it's not even herding - it's just harassment and bad behavior. You're not going to squash those instincts out of her by not letting her be a jerk to people or dogs, I promise, or only letting that drive and desire be focused on appropriate things - be that really herding, or chasing a ball. All that's being encouraged by letting her nip at you is a nipping habit.

 

 

This. Yes, Yes, YES.

[CptJack]

This. Yes, Yes, YES.

 

I'm hijacking but I always kind of wonder how this reasoning goes.

 

If their, say, JRT was chasing the cat they'd step in and worry about the dog eventually killing the cat. If the JRT was biting the kids every time the kids made high pitched noises, they wouldn't say 'but it's instinct, I want to encourage it' or believe they couldn't do anything about the behaviors. Likewise, they wouldn't worry about making it vanish completely by channeling it into appropriate activities.

 

Not every expression of instinct and drive is desirable, useful, or safe.

 

How herding became the magical exception I have no idea, but it's damaging to both dogs and people.

[HJTRAS]

suppressed instincts usually ends up in worse problem. you cannot say stop your breed for what they are born to do. Then challenge them to your desires. Your making the fine line of what they instinctively do and what you want them to do. It ends badly for most owners.

[CptJack]

Hey. How do you think Border Collies chasing and harassing the chickens goes over on a working farm? How many of those open level trial dogs do you think constantly nip at their handler, or goes after the other dogs out there? Do you think those dogs have less instinct than yours? Or maybe they just magically grew out of it on their own?

 

I'm not a novice dog owner. I didn't say anything about suppressing instinct, just not allowing a dog to be a brat.

 

I've got a border collie about the same age as yours. Guess what she's not allowed to do? Put her teeth on human skin, but a jerk to other dogs or harass the cats. Or chase cars. She'd really like to chase cars. That's herding instinct, too! If by herding you mean prey-drive and the desire to chase and bite things, which is all you seem to be using it to mean.

 

I've got a two year old German Shepherd/LGD mix. Guess how much he's allowed to turn that guarding instinct into acting threatening toward people? How about how often I let him turn the tending instincts roll into acting like a fence to block the cats and kids in? Or bark his fool head off all night long? Because that's all instinct, too.

 

I've got a Rat Terrier. He actively works as a squirrel dog and at clearing barns of rodents? How often do you think I let him tree the cat, or kill our small pets? He's 8. Guess how much of a problem not letting him do those things has been to his 'career' as a hunting dog or killing rats? NONE.

Or, oh wait, I know. How often do you think I let any of the dogs hump me? That's instinct. Or mark in the house? Also instinct. They're DOGS. They live with PEOPLE. They are completely capable of living by your rules and applying those instincts in the manner you tell them to and provide for them, without putting your and their own safety at risk.

 

No one who is unwilling to channel the instinct a dog has into behaviors that aren't destructive and dangerous - ie: drawing blood on people - has any business owning any kind of dog at all. You are going to end up with a law suit and/or your dog put down when she draws blood on somebody that isn't you. That's a huge disservice to your dog and to everyone around you.

Instinct is no excuse not to train or to let your dog be a rude, ill mannered BRAT. Get the dog a ball and a flirt pole. I'd say to get her on stock but if she's been allowed to run wild and apply her own rules and ideas about what is and isn't to be 'herded' and how, I doubt any person who values their stock would let her near them.

You are not 'helping' your dog become better, you are ruining her.

 

Again: My working bred puppy is younger than yours. She has not put teeth on human skin since she was 10 weeks old. She has not been allowed to chase the cats or be rude to our other dogs, ever. She has PLENTY of instinct, but she's learning how to USE IT and exercise self-control so she doesn't end up dead.

[RemsMom]

When I told people I was getting a Border Collie for my daughter most of the time I was told, "Border Collies always nip at heels. There is nothing you can do."

 

The odd thing was that I knew a couple of Border Collies and they never nipped.

 

When Nattie was very young nipping was one of the few things that I gave her a firm correction for. Now, at seven months, she has stopped nipping but sometimes will get excited (when my daughter is running around in the yard with her) and will act like she wants to nip. I have told my daughter that if Nattie even acts like she is going to nip you to give a firm "NO" and stand like a statue. All fun stops. Most of the time when my puppy makes a bad choice (jumping on people, getting on the furniture) we use a "Sorry" or "Off" in a very easy going way. I like positive training and I prefer telling my dog through my words and actions that she has made a poor choice and needs to do something else. But sometimes she needs a bit of scolding.

 

And sometimes when she gets a little bossy toward the GSD or the cats she also gets a firm correction. My GSD is 90lbs. and could really hurt Nattie. My cats could really be hurt by Nattie if I don't control her. My GSD and my cats deserve to live a peaceful life and should not have to protect themselves from my puppy.

 

At her worst Nattie only snagged clothing (and that is something I consider 100% unacceptable). If Nattie ever drew blood I would be seriously worried.

[Maralynn]

My working bred pup doesn't stalk or nip ankles in play either. He's tried a few times when he was younger but my my female BC immediately told him that it wasn't acceptable and he switched play style to something appropriate. When he tried it with me, I stopped all play and told him what I wanted, he responded and and we went on. Ditto on humping. He tries it at times when he gets over-excited but I redirect/have him down and settle or she tells him not to and he switches to something else. He gets to use his brain power and drives for search work and training time with me and he's incredibly happy and well adjusted. On the flip side, my second BC had never learned self control and when I got him at 1.5 y/o he was cat obsessed to the point where he was fixated on stalking and biting them. He wasn't happy, his brain was in over drive and he couldn't think or relax when the idea of a cat was even suggested. He'd get tense, wound up and fixated to the point where he'd block everything else out. Allowing him to continue practicing the behavior wasn't an option as he was big enough to kill a cat. It took years of work for him to learn to be calm and think around cats (and in the process he also learned appropriate outlets for his drive) and he was a much happier, more relaxed dog when he grasped the concept of self-control.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

In the past twenty years I've my intact dogs and bitches 1,2 and 4 in dog parks in Seattle, San Fransisco, Oakland, Charlotte NC, New York City and beaches in Glocester, Cape Cod,Wales,Ontario, Calais Fr, and in friends homes with more-or-less mannerly OB (Other breeeds) and dog friendly (and not so friendly) motels without one dog fight. I have bellowed at other dogs from time to time - mostly at those who thought my intact male wasn't a real dog. Sometimes the bellowees owners were offended. Sorry.

 

I don't see any particular reason adult dogs should play -let alone play with dogs I don't know. Yes, playing dogs are "cute" - they are also one miscue away from a fight and they can exercise in other ways. Most adult Border Collies don't need to play -play's what some people expect all dopey-puppy dogs should do; thinking that while the dogs are playing they can gossip with other dog owners or admire the sunset - just when owners need to be most attentive.

 

I take my dogs to the dog park/beach so they can run and poop off leash. I've had dogs I didn't need to watch intently and dogs I never took my eyes off.

 

My Border Collies get along with my Maremma guard dogs and dogs that visit our home (whatever breed) by ignoring them - works for the visiting dogs too.

 

If I thought my dogs would be attacked in a particular venue, I'd go somewhere else or, if there was no alternative, I'd carry a cane.

 

Pay attention.

 

Donald McCaig

[Root Beer]

suppressed instincts usually ends up in worse problem. you cannot say stop your breed for what they are born to do. Then challenge them to your desires. Your making the fine line of what they instinctively do and what you want them to do. It ends badly for most owners.

 

Suppressed instincts . . . yes, can end up with a major problem. But training a dog to exercise self-control and to know when to choose to override them can be a very, VERY good thing.

 

Example: Dean was originally a car chaser. If we were walking down the road with him on leash and a car passed, he lunged and would try to chase it.

 

We did a goodly amount of diligent work playing the Look at That Game from Control Unleashed, first in an ordinary room full of dogs and people who weren't doing much, then in a room with dogs who were moving a little, finally in a room where dogs were doing Agility - and when he got to the point where he could hang out and watch dogs do Agility, I was able to use the game to show him that choosing to stay in his right mind and ignore cars was much better than trying to chase them.

 

He is going on 9 years old now and we frequently take him off leash in the unfenced part of our yard and he gets to go down by the road. If a car comes by, he completely ignores it. We don't even have to tell him to. It's not even a thing anymore.

 

A lot of self control training entails teaching the dog to make choices that go against instinct. The goal is not to suppress the instinct, but to teach the dog when it is appropriate to follow it and when it is not. Dean gets to do plenty of chasing - flying balls, chasing the other dogs as they play, etc. But I can also trust him on roads and at Agility trials because he has successfully learned that other behavior is expected in those contexts.

 

I would not advocate suppression of instinct. But teaching a dog in what contexts it is appropriate to go for it, and in what contexts self-control is needed . . . I consider that basic manners training, actually.

[CptJack]

Also that.

Thud is welcome to guard the house and car, and to be protective of us (including the other dogs) in the face of strange dogs. He's also welcome to keep moving balls out of a soccer net, and chase other dogs.

The RT squirrel hunts and clears rats out of barns for people.

 

Molly chases balls and toys and other dogs -without her teeth- and when invited and as part of games ME. When she's older she'll have a wider variety of outlets

 

None of it's SUPPRESSING their instinct. They have outlets. They can all mark to their hearts content outside and in the woods. They have opportunities to use their instincts. That doesn't mean harassing (or killing) the cat, making people bleed, starting dog fights, or chasing cars.

 

And I agree that it's just basic manners. If it was a beagle who was doing this stuff would anyone say 'it's just instinct, don't stop them'? I doubt it. A lot. Maybe, but somehow it's almost always the herders people decide shouldn't be taught any self control.

It makes me NUTS.

[CMP]

I know that some things I can suppress outright (nipping, herding people, chasing cars, etc.) without any problem because none of the working dogs are permitted, of course, to do any of those things and they still manage to ... you know ... herd.

 

With other things I try and find acceptable alternatives - simply because it makes me smile to see them happy. Molly does fabulous outruns, for instance ... around the wheelbarrow. She's has a natural tendency to head and fetch and I taught her to drive so now she does her little outrun, comes back around and "helps" me move the wheelbarrow in the direction I am going. But we're pretty clear that it is the wheelbarrow we are working, I am not being worked. Once, it slipped from my hands and went trundling (sort of slowly, weirdly) down the hill. I thought I was in for a vet visit as she was determined she could stop it by force of will. She barked at it, plunked in front of it, ran at it and tried to grip it. She was MAD and barked at it even after it stopped, issuing a very clear challenge ... "Next time, wheelbarrow, I am going to bite your tire right off, you got that?"

 

Hah - yes, they all think I am somewhat ridiculous around here. Do I care much? No, not really :/

[rushdoggie]

I don't see any particular reason adult dogs should play -let alone play with dogs I don't know. Yes, playing dogs are "cute" - they are also one miscue away from a fight and they can exercise in other ways. Most adult Border Collies don't need to play -play's what some people expect all dopey-puppy dogs should do; thinking that while the dogs are playing they can gossip with other dog owners or admire the sunset - just when owners need to be most attentive.

 

While I don't hold such an extreme version of that view by any means, I am actually quite amazed how many people think their dog is defective if he or she isn't into playing with strangers dogs.

 

Most adult dogs I have owned had a few friend dogs, and may have occasionally played with their housemates, but are happiest to just be parallel to each other in a relaxed way. The puppy playfulness wore off around age 3.

 

I regularly have people who attend pet dog training classes and tell me their dog must be poorly socialized because they don't want to play with dogs at the dog park, or their neighbors dog. Somehow, somewhere the message got out that all dogs must love play. I think it was about the time that dog parks shifted from "places you can legally let your dog off leash to play ball or walk with you" to "places where dogs go to play with another" and therefore its not expected your off leash dog be under any kind of control ("what do you mean, 'please call my dog off?' this is a Dog Park!?") and if you dog would prefer to not get body slammed and pestered by other dogs then he s no longer welcome there.

[urge to herd]

Wow - quite the discussion about play, instincts, no play, suppression of instincts is evil and dangerous . . .

 

All adult beings that live in any sort of communal situation Learn The Rules about what is acceptable and not. Humans, dogs, sheep and cattle in herds, geese in flocks, - all of them. The young are given great latitude, except when it's dangerous. Nobody with a brain in their head lets a toddler follow a bouncing ball into the street because it's the child's instinct to follow bright and moving objects, and it's dangerous to suppress it. Not teaching a puppy the rules of living with humans is pretty much the same idea.

 

Since humans have domesticated canids, it is our responsibility to Teach Them The Rules. No to do so is dangerous for the dog and the humans. Check out the statistics for the reasons people give their dogs to shelters - poor behavior is high on the list.

 

Play - Gibbs is my 5th dog since I left my parents home. He is the only one that loves to play with other dogs, even at the age of 7. He seems disappointed when he isn't allowed to greet other dogs, and will romp around quite a bit with a well-behaved friend if allowed.

 

So much depends on the individual dog, individual human and particular situation. We gotta take some variables into account. At the same time, harassment of other living beings is never a good idea.

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

[Maralynn]

While I'm not a fan of dog parks and don't seek out social interation for my dogs with other dogs, I neither encourage or discourage play between my own dogs. If it makes them happy, then why not? My first two dogs weren't into playing with each other. My current two are. But doing stuff with me always trumps playing with each other and my youngster is perfectly happy ignoring random dogs.

[HJTRAS]

Interesting conversation with a lot of well thought out responses. Thank you

[MrSnappy]

Suggesting adults dogs should *not* play is as ridiculously extreme as insisting that they should. My 14.5 year old dog regularly invites 5 year old Dexter to play. In fact, he's gotten a lot more playful as he's aged. The terriers are a roiling herring ball of play every day and they'll also play with the IGs almost daily. Most of my dogs will not play with dogs they don't know, but Wootie will sometimes engage a dog at the dog park. It took TWooie years to understand that an invitation to play from his housemates was not a threat, and now he will routinely engage a few of them as well. His play face looks exactly like his mad face, so they are sometimes confused, but they are all learning to read him. And at least once a day they all play their own game where everyone chases Dexter around and around. It never ends in fighting and there are ten dogs here.

 

Watching TWooie learn to let his hair down, so to speak, and engage with other dogs in a way that is not defensive is one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen. I'm glad to have witnessed it. My dogs don't have to play, but they choose to play, all through adulthood. I don't think they are particularly unusual in that regard.

 

RDM

[Tommy Coyote]

My dogs all play. Zeke and Tommy do not play with each other. They both play with Joey. Sometimes, tho, I catch all 3 of them running circles around the yard. I really like for the dogs to play. They get so much better exercise from that they ever would from just going on a walk.

[CMP]

Crazy mix here... some play a lot, some a little, a few hardly at all and one or two virtually never.

 

I find the retired working dogs the least playful but the most tolerant of being played on. Those dogs have a different idea of fun, generally speaking, and the way for them to be happy involves going with them one on one up into the hills. They run and chase things and swim and lie in the sun on warm rocks.

 

I actually find my 6month BC to be the least playful, in the traditional sense, of any puppy I have ever had. She will outright make snappy noises at anyone who baby talks to her.

[CptJack]

My dogs are (obviously) mostly not border collies.

 

The Rat Terrier (8) doesn't play with other dogs - or play at all, though he gets very joyful and wiggly when he runs, or when he's hunting.

The Boston Terrier (almost 8) is CRAZY playful and wants nothing more than to play, all the time. She's a clown and a goof.

 

Kylie 2.5, the chi mix, only plays chase games with our dogs. Strange dogs and physical contact in play are absolute nos.

 

Thud 2 is a playing maniac. He and Bug get along well.

 

Molly 6 months enjoys playing with Bug and/or Thud a LOT but she either despises or is afraid of (one or the other depending on dog) any dog she doesn't live with.

 

I kinda think Molly's going to join Jack and Kylie in not reall playing with age and maturity though. Bug and Thud will always be goofballs.

[GentleLake]

I think some of the comments are a bit sad. The more you socialize any dog the more likely they are to get along with others. If your son's akitas are very friendly dogs...then dont let stereotypical nonsense get in the way.

 

I realize I'm a couple days late on this, but Skunk, you're new here and I expect don't realize there's a history here.

 

HJTRAS has posted here a few times before about the difficulties he's having among his own dogs, and he's got good reason to be cautious adding new dogs to the mix, especially such large ones.

[CMP]

^^

 

Also many people (true in my case for all except the service dogs) don't care how well their dogs get along with other dogs so long as they are not aggressive. I don't much care. I don't take my dogs very often into public places (again, except the service dogs) so all I care about is that they are mannerly, not aggressive, climatized well enough to be not traumatized if not comfortable.

 

I think "socialization" has become the new black. Yes, I agree it is important - but it's a very human concept.

 

For people who compete, who live in an urban area, who travel with their animals, etc. it is important for the animal to be comfortable - but socializing the dog is best done, in my experience, one on one with yourself.

 

I expect it's a matter of what you do with your dog, what you want out of the relationship you have with your dog, where you live and your life circumstances. Everyone will have a different take on it.

 

My dogs do not go to dog parks except once or twice as part of the puppy "socialization" process, but generally I do not let them play with the other dogs very much because I do not always trust other dog owners. I do not think my dogs would tell you they felt sad about this if you were to ask and they could talk

[simba]

My dogs don't often play with other dogs they don't 'know', I would like them to ignore other dogs as much as possible while out and about, maybe politely greet them. Of course that's the aim and not the reality. But I do think it is right to emphasize socialization as much as possible. Just perhaps a different take on it than what's sometimes meant by the term.

 

I want them to be able to encounter many unusual and everyday situations without freaking out or being scared or misbehaving- for me that's what it's all about. Like having a child who is able to go out to places without crying at the mere sight of dogs, because they haven't seen them before.

[CptJack]

 

I think "socialization" has become the new black. Yes, I agree it is important - but it's a very human concept.

 

For people who compete, who live in an urban area, who travel with their animals, etc. it is important for the animal to be comfortable - but socializing the dog is best done, in my experience, one on one with yourself.

 

Yup.

 

Biggest mistake I made with Kylie was encouraging her, a shy and aloof puppy, to go up to strangers and let herself be pet in exchange for a treat. She did not learn that strange people meant she'd get food. She learned that if strange people tried to give her food, they were going to then try and grab her.

 

Backed up when she was about 6, 8 months old and started working with her NEAR people doing things with ME that she liked. She was a lot better than that and is now the most bomb proof dog we own, though in most situations she ignores people not family.

 

That 'everyone pet the puppy and feed it!' nonsense had her flipping on her back against my ankles screaming, or growling at them.