Has anyone here ever had a 'dumb' Border Collie?

[Betsy]

I mean actually not intelligent. Since they're known for being the smartest of all the breeds (so says the newsletter article I just received from my vet) I just wondered if anyone had ever owned or encountered a BC that was NOT smart. I'm afraid to say, "You know like a (insert another dog breed here) dog", because someone will surely take offense to whichever breed I pick.

 

Honestly, there are times I wonder about my 8-month-old BC, thinking he's either really, really smart, or really, really dumb, with the way he acts/responds sometimes. So far I'm chocking it up to be a stubborn teenager!

[CMP]

Yep. Plenty of them, too. I have met WAY WAY WAY more smart ones, but it's a continuum.

 

They are the smartest breed, generally speaking, but not every BC is smarter than every other dog.

 

Smartest dog I ever met was not even a BC.

 

 

 

Edited to say: I read the title as "Has Anyone Here Ever MET a 'Dumb' Border Collie".

[Sue R]

One of the most trainable and willing dogs I have ever had was really not very bright (a byb Airedale). She had biddability down to a science and was so easily trained that everyone thought she was *so smart*. At the same time, Ed had a coonhound of common ancestry, who was not very trainable or willing but who was very, very smart (in dog smarts). Everyone thought she was *dumb* but that is the last thing she was. Anything she was willing to learn or that suited her, she learned fast!

 

So, smarts (in a dog fashion) and biddability/trainability are not the same thing. Border Collies in general, tend to be both smart and trainable, but I am sure there are dogs that populate both ends of the spectrum for each characteristic.

 

And teenage Border Collies? All bets are off for some of them at certain ages!

 

PS - To answer the question, I don't think I've ever met one that was not pretty smart but I've met some that were not as easily trained!

[CMP]

Yeah - "by and large" BC are the smartest dogs with which I am familiar. By and large, they are the most trainable. By and large they are the most biddable. By and large they have the most kinesthetic intelligence.

 

You know that they say about exceptions

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

This nonsense was started some years ago by a writer who came to that conclusion by surveying AKC obedience competitors.. There may or not be dumb Border Collies; there are a surfeit of dumb writers.

 

Donald McCaig

[mum24dog]

Yes, we have one that isn't the sharpest knife in the box. Problem solving isn't his thing at all.

 

We also have a pup that seems totally dense at times when he point blank doesn't respond to a cue that has been proofed 100% elsewhere but it isn't lack of intelligence, it's lack of experience in learning and a tendency to compartmentalise experiences. Set him a problem and he's already better at figuring it out than the nearly 9 year old.

 

It's important to understand that many collies (as in BCs) are very literal minded and while generalising training to other situations is necessary for many other dogs, collies may need it to the nth degree.

 

I do X here in this particular spot and in this way but nowhere else. Another time and another place is something completely different.

 

Like Sue, my lurcher was the least biddable but smartest dog I have had though. Smart is knowing how to get what you want. The pup may turn out to be smart but it will be in a different way.

[rushdoggie]

Dear Doggers,

 

This nonsense was started some years ago by a writer who came to that conclusion by surveying AKC obedience competitors.. There may or not be dumb Border Collies; there are a surfeit of dumb writers.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Haha...yep

 

Same guy thought Sibes were dumb. Clearly he had never actually lived with one!

[Root Beer]

Dean, who is very intelligent and creative, is actually quite dumb in some regards.

 

He simply cannot, even after many years, figure out how to use his nose to locate a toy if he isn't paying attention and doesn't see where I throw it. Speedy was a master at it and even Bandit already does it. Dean was lost in those months before we got Bandit, and I actually tried to teach him some verbal directional to help him find those toys, and he did OK with that, but is doing much better now that he has Bandit to point them out to him.

 

Funny thing is - he can be running along, catch the scent of a toy in the grass, and will stop to pick it up (so I know he does have a keen sense of smell and he can identify specific scents). But if he doesn't have the scent to begin with, he simply does not try using his nose to pick one up!

 

I've even tried to teach him with search games, but he finds those games extremely frustrating and will usually just resort to barking.

 

It's just an area where he is completely deficient. That said, I wouldn't call him dumb. I have never seen a dog in my life who can mimic like he does. He mimics dogs, mimics people - it is truly amazing to behold at times. He does great at solving problems and puzzles that don't involve finding lost toys . . . .

 

But often when we are playing ball in the yard, I end up calling him Dean Dog Doofenschmirtz . . . Especially when I have to go point the toy out to him . . . yet again!

[mum24dog]

Are we talking about Stanley Coren?

 

His dog intelligence tests are nonsense.

 

A dog is clever if it can get a towel off its head quickly - apparently.

 

How about the opposite view that we ask our dogs to do all sorts of dumb things with no meaning to the dog so it just sits there convinced covering its head with a towel is just one more of them and decides to humour us by just playing along?

[Eileen Stein]

It's important to understand that many collies (as in BCs) are very literal minded and while generalising training to other situations is necessary for many other dogs, collies may need it to the nth degree.

 

I have to say I've found the exact opposite. Generalizing from experience is something I think border collies excel at. That's one of the assets that makes them such great problem-solvers. Just because they can obsess over a certain place where something once happened long ago doesn't mean they're not good at generalizing.

[Maxi]

Surely goods Sheepdogs (BCs) have to be good at generalising. Obviously experience and training help, but it's rare that any situation with sheep is exactly the same. Penning would be a good example of this, as is working with different breeds of sheep..

 

. and yes to go back to the OP's query, not all BCs are equally talented..but that doesn't mean that they won't excel at something else.

As the others say, it really depends on how you define "Smart" and "dumb" (I guess IQ tests for humans could be counted similarly. Some non-Western cultures tend to do poorly at these tests, it doen't make these people dumb)

[teresaserrano]

Tess is my first bc so very limited experience here, but I do find she's not bad at generalizing. A novel place does need a bit of work in commands that she knows in some other place, but she's quite young so commands aren't truly mechanized anyway. Taking that into account, I find she doesn't have problems with generalizing. She can use a known concept in a new way with ease.

[Maralynn]

Sensitive dogs can read too much into a situation or have sensory overload and shut down and appear "dumb" when they are in fact incredibly intelligent. My Missy was considered to be difficult with no desire to work in her first home when in fact she was incredibly intuative and learned things fast. Her first owner was just heavy handed and she had shut down.

[gcv-border]

Generalizing: I would have to agree that I am quite happy with my dogs generalizing within the scope of agility. If there is a jump - single bar, double, triple, panel, broad - with or without wings (and the wings can be see-through or entire), I expect them to jump it - at home or at any agility trial (grass, turf, screenings). I ascribe to the TTFJ philosophy - "Take The Friggin' Jump". If I point you at it, take it. And they do.

 

OTOH, I have friends who will go to great lengths to proof every different combination of jump, wing, environment and footing that they can think of. And some of their dogs can still be thrown for a loop if they come across something novel. In fact, my first agility instructor buys all sorts of different jumps so that her dogs can train on anything that may be encountered at a trial.

 

I am sure there are other areas of their life in which they are good at generalizing, and areas where they are not so great, but I haven't paid too much attention.

[5Bordercollies]

Xena, my oldest bitch is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. At six she still struggles to master "down" while most of the others learned that after about two tries. She is however a very sharp watchdog, very little gets past that little dog. I've heard from several people that some BC's have trouble generalizing, personally haven't had that problem.

[Sue R]

Like Sue, my lurcher was the least biddable but smartest dog I have had though. Smart is knowing how to get what you want. The pup may turn out to be smart but it will be in a different way.

You summed it up perfectly! "Smart is knowing how to get what you want." That describes our Nutmeg (the coonhound) precisely. And also the other coonhound we owned, who was just as smart and just as unbiddable.

[GentleLake]

In defense of Stanly Coren (and I'm not really setting out to defend him [or his breed list by intelligence] here but to point out a flaw in the Coren bashing element here and elsewhere), most people grabbed onto his list but never bothered to read the book or the explanation of how he defined "intelligence."

 

It's honestly not the word I would have used for his evaluation, and he himself discussed the word's problematic nature. Coren took many things into account when arriving at his ranking, including trainability and biddability. He explains that dogs like Siberian Huskies are indeed quite smart, but don't fall as high in his ranking because they're not as easily trainable or as reliable at following cues as other breeds that ranked higher.

 

But people were quick to misunderstand and over simplify the list, and thus the rise of the border collie's popularity. It was an unfortunate choice of words, whether you agree with him or not.

 

ETA:

As the others say, it really depends on how you define "Smart" and "dumb" (I guess IQ tests for humans could be counted similarly. Some non-Western cultures tend to do poorly at these tests, it doen't make these people dumb)

 

 

Exactly! And when people aren't understanding (or more accurately, are misusing) how a term is being defined and used, it can lead to all sorts of misperceptions.

[D'Elle]

I have to say I've found the exact opposite. Generalizing from experience is something I think border collies excel at. That's one of the assets that makes them such great problem-solvers. Just because they can obsess over a certain place where something once happened long ago doesn't mean they're not good at generalizing.

 

I agree with this. In general, dogs don't seem to excel at generalizing. That is, if they know a behavior perfectly in the living room they may have no idea what you want if you ask for it in the kitchen, let alone outdoors, and it has to be trained in various locations before it "takes" to the level of being known wherever you are. In my experience with training many different dogs, the border collies I have worked with generalize better than other breeds do in that they either learn this faster or don't even need to be taught to generalize the behavior. This makes them so much faster to train. They also learn how to learn much faster than other breeds IMO.

Not that this is limited to BCs, of course. My little terrier mix, once taught a new behavior, immediately knows it and will perform it no matter where we are, or what distractions there may be around him. But he may be exceptional - I do not know, not having had a little terrier mix before.

[CptJack]

'Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.' - Albert Einstein.

 

I feel like this applies.

 

Molly - Yeah, she's highly trainable. She doesn't take many repetitions to have a command down, she's able to associate to a verbal cue very, very, quickly. She's great at generalization - once she knows it, she knows it everywhere. Even better, once she knows it, she knows it at any distance - I've had to work with most of my other dogs to realize sit means put your but down, where you are, not come to me and sit directly in front of me.

 

Meanwhile, I often jokingly say my rat terrier is dumb as a box of rocks. By conventional understanding of intelligence, that's true enough. He doesn't learn new commands particularly quickly (and by that I mean learning them is slow, painful, progress). Once he has them he has them forever, anywhere, but man getting him there is a chore. He doesn't really problem solve in day-to-day life, either. He's willing to go with the flow about 95% of the time. He doesn't CARE about food or toys or praise or treats or training or if a blanket is on his head.

 

HOWEVER, you put him in a barn that needs to be cleared of rodents or out in the woods after squirrels and that dog will pull some stunts that makes it real clear, real fast, that he is perfectly good at using his brain in impressive ways, problem solving, intuiting, and thinking ahead. Because he cares about what he's doing.

 

My other 3 dogs are more like Molly to varying degrees. They're biddable. They're interested in pleasing me (to greater and lesser degrees - the GSD/Pyr pushes that line, the Chi-mix would turn herself into a pretzel because she loves me, and the Boston just wants it to be fun) and they're interested in training and learning and working with me.

 

The RT? He is a sweet, snuggly, good dog. He'd be more trainable without having been shut completely down for the first five years of his life, but he's just not all that interested in doing for me for the sake of doing it. When he turns on, though, and cares about the task at hand? He is a sight to behold.

[CMP]

The Berners are not an intelligent breed. They are a wise one, though. Throw a ball at them and they will duck, look hurt and avoid you for a week. Need a furry head to lay on your shoulder? One appears with a ball. They will sit, stay, lie down and come. And that's about it.

 

The Scotties are like CptJack describes her terrier. Seems a little thick but throw those little buggers in a field and watch the gopher is disappear like a trick at a carnival. They will not do anything particularly easily but once they decide it is a thing they will obey, they always do. I laugh out loud to think of a Scottie working with a handler like a Collie with a Shepherd.

 

The Hounds have their own inscrutable intelligence which flows from the natural world and they march to their own drummers. I don't worry about training hounds. They don't need training except basic manners. Mother Nature gave them all they need. Are they biddable? Who knows.

 

The Rotties are highly intelligent and highly trainable. I find them more easily trained for rote activity than any other breed. They are intelligent but not creative in my experience.

 

The Border Collies are highly intelligent and less trainable than the Rotties - but much more biddable. They are creative. They are the most fun and the closest thing I have ever found (in a canine) to a true companion/partner.

 

Intelligence is a bugaboo in a dark closet. It's relative. It's usually irrelevent in degrees. It can't really be quantified on a universal level so it can't be measured, one against the other. Let me put it this way - I wouldn't leave a young Border Collie minding the baby - I would a Berner. I wouldn't put a Border Collie in a field full of gophers and I wouldn't leave a Scottie in a field full of sheep.

[Gideon's girl]

I started with GSDs back when the popular training method was "tell them once and help them be right." It worked well on GSDs. When I got my Saluki, I trained it like a GSD. For quite a number of years, I had the top scoring Saluki in obedience, only because I was almost the only person in the whole country who was dumb enough to think Salukis could be trained, and my Saluki was dumb enough to be trained. That was right when "The List" came out. Salukis were about second from the bottom, right next to Afghan Hounds. I just laughed, until I got a Dachshund. That was the single most untrainable dog I have ever had...and the smartest. She ALWAYS figured out how to get what she wanted, and it was NEVER what I wanted.

[Laurelin]

Our BC/farm collie (? not sure) was pretty average. The dumbest dog I've had though was a sheltie, also supposed to be a smart breed according to the lists. I've had several shelties and while this one was very unintelligent (but sweet!) my other we had at the same time was exceptionally bright. But the male, I swear he did not have 2 brain cells to rub together. He could not problem solve, could not read dogs and people, was not bidabble. Did not understand anything.

 

My cattle dog/terrier mix right now is not nearly as smart as my younger papillon- or at least the intelligence is very different. My older papillon is biddable and average intelligence. My cattle dog x is exceptionally trainable- great work ethic and good at reading me too. He blows every dog I've had out of the water as far as how well he learns both commands and patterns. His sits in 2 days were snappier and better in distractions than my other dogs' after years of training... But he lacks a lot of problem solving skills. Even things like Kongs he just struggles with. He excels at following my direction and learning patterns. He is one of those dogs that makes you look like an awesome trainer. My younger papillon though can problem solve like no dog I've had before. She is a really creative thinker. She WILL get what she wants and she is not going to give up till she gets it. She is the dog constantly making me wonder how intelligent dogs really are.

 

Dogs are individuals. I don't put much stock in the intelligence lists.

[Shetlander]

I think dogs in general are smart and all my dogs have been above average, LOL. My two smartest dogs have been the Border Collie and Border Collie mix. But honestly, I have found all my dogs very clever, including the Lhasas which are not considered to be a "smart" breed.

[Sue R]

I took a poll among my three dogs (and the two cats volunteered opinions). They all decided that while college-educated adult women may in general be "intelligent", they are not always "smart". Several of them were willing to offer that with a sample size of just one, they could conclude that said college-educated adult woman wasn't always very smart or very intelligent, and was sometimes pretty dumb.

 

Maybe I should have not conducted a poll at all...at least not getting answers from a total of five intelligent and smart (with regards to their species), brutally honest animals.

 

PS - People who don't know sheep, for instance, often call them "dumb" but what they are is smart in terms of what sheep need to know and do, usually. A lot of it all is point of view.

[Root Beer]

 

PS - People who don't know sheep, for instance, often call them "dumb" but what they are is smart in terms of what sheep need to know and do, usually. A lot of it all is point of view.

 

LOL!!! I don't consider sheep to be dumb. That's why I keep a fence between myself and sheep at all times.