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Rescue Pups Vs. Breeder Pups


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That's it in a nutshell.

 

Yep. I have a fairly large house and property but honestly? The only real estate the dogs care about inside is the 10 square feet around my ankles. Not like I"m sitting in the living room and they're frolicking in the kitchen.

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I always cringe when I read something along the lines of someone wanting to rehome their Border Collie (or other dog) to a farm where the dog will "have room to run". As if a good life for a dog would be to be running about unsupervised and unmanaged. Sure, it's nice for a dog to have room to run under supervision, and room to sniff, pee, and do other doggy pursuits, but interaction with their owner and reasonable activity (mental and physical) is what makes a dog's life good.

 

Of course, for those with what it takes, working with their owner and livestock make a dog's life great!

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Just to get back to the topic of breeder vs rescue and puppy vs something else, I don't quite get the structure argument. If you're evaluating the structure of a puppy you can do that whether the puppy is purebred or a mix, no?

 

And puppy structure evaluation only goes so far, it seems to me. Granted, you should be able to pick up obvious faults, but growing puppies (just like growing foals) change over time and what you see at 8 weeks might not be what you end up with at 8 months or 18 months.

 

Likewise, one could certainly examine the structure of a young adult and know not only whether that structure is suitable (dog is done growing) but also know if the dog has the temperament and athletic ability (or whatever) that you're looking for.

 

I see all sorts of rescue border collies competing in agility. Some are known border collies (as far as it can be known) and some may be mixes. But if they have the build, temperament, capability, and drive, the fact that they are a mix or pure doesn't seem to ultimately be a huge factor.

 

If someone wants a puppy, they needn't make excuses for getting one, but I really don't get the whole argument that getting a puppy somehow gives one a better chance of having the perfect structure for a particular sport.

 

JMO.

 

J.

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Just to get back to the topic of breeder vs rescue and puppy vs something else, I don't quite get the structure argument. If you're evaluating the structure of a puppy you can do that whether the puppy is purebred or a mix, no?

 

And puppy structure evaluation only goes so far, it seems to me. Granted, you should be able to pick up obvious faults, but growing puppies (just like growing foals) change over time and what you see at 8 weeks might not be what you end up with at 8 months or 18 months.

 

I am not sure that you were aiming this at my comment but in case you were, no you can't always get a good evaluation on structure but a well bred litter with 2 parents with compatible structure and soundness is more likely to give you a dog with good structure.

 

Sometimes a mix can have really odd proportions if the breeds they are mixed from are very different in body type.

 

Ex: I know a Rottweiler/corgi mix (yes, really, an oops litter between 2 neighbor dogs), and he is a funny boy, but he is wonky in shape, with easty-westy feet, and shoulders that make me cringe. I would never ask him to do any significant jumping.

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I am not sure that you were aiming this at my comment but in case you were, no you can't always get a good evaluation on structure but a well bred litter with 2 parents with compatible structure and soundness is more likely to give you a dog with good structure.

 

Sometimes a mix can have really odd proportions if the breeds they are mixed from are very different in body type.

 

I can really understand this, the concept of "compatible" structures in the parents being more likely to provide suitable structure in the offspring. I think we've all seen the result of some weird, unintended pairings!

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I think if you stick to rather naturally built, hardy, and athletic dog breeds you can stack the odds of finding a nice rescue. My new rescue boy (terrier x herder? not sure) is not built perfectly but he's far more athletic than any dog I've had. He came flying out of my tree a couple days ago and now has decided climbing is just his pass time. This dog has a stable stable temperament and so far has been a joy to train. He's up for anything I put at him, learns exceptionally quickly. Will he be the greatest most competitive dog in the world? Probably not but I really don't see why so far that he can't be a dog I can compete with at a local level. I don't have the money to trial every weekend or the equipment and room to train every day at home. I think he'll be perfect. If you were more set on a BC (I just wanted small/medium, athletic, and people oriented) then the local BC rescues are great at placing dogs. I know a lot of rescue BC or BC mix agility and flyball and disc dogs.

 

I'm not saying it will work for EVERY agility competitor but I do wish more people who are casually competitive would consider it. There does seem to be a prevailing idea that you need a BC and a BC bred to the nines to compete.

 

I have a dog from a breeder and well known agility lines (not a border collie) that has so many health problems she had to quit at 5 years old and now cannot do most dog things either. My old sport bred dog who has since passed (sheltie) had a temperament that would have made him not be able to handle anything about competition. He was incredibly fearful and timid. It's a crapshoot either way. I have to say my shelter dog so far has the most bombproof and solid temperament of any dog I've owned. I'll get back to you in a couple years and let you know how the agility goes...

 

Sometimes I think agility folk are splitting hairs about non important things... But I've been told I'm not competitive enough so I don't get it. I'm ok with that. ;)

 

Back to lurkerdom....

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There does seem to be a prevailing idea that you need a BC and a BC bred to the nines to compete.

 

......

 

Sometimes I think agility folk are splitting hairs about non important things... But I've been told I'm not competitive enough so I don't get it. I'm ok with that. ;)

 

 

I have a rescue mongrel that I got at 7 months who has been extremely successful - would have been more so if she hadn't been such a moody little madam. I probably wouldn't have looked twice at her as a pup as I would have had no idea what she would turn into,

 

And our rescue collie is still competing against the best in the country at nearly 9 and with HD. We got him at 8 months and his temperament has, to say the least, not been of the best. Good agility dog though.

 

My hound mix could have been good too if he hadn't had the wits scared out of him by a GSD when young. He didn't have good bounce back.

 

So no, you don't need a specially bred dog to compete but I will be much more picky in the future whether I am considering rescuing or buying from a breeder.

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Going back to the question of not knowing what you are getting with a rescue pup, a couple of people have asked me what breed my 14 wo b/w bc pup is. That surprised me because people round here know what bcs look like but actually I suppose if he weren't mine I might be tempted to double check too. The way he looks now he could turn into a lurcher or even a staffie mix ( if I didn't know he was a full bc ).

 

Of course the uncertainty may be of no concern to a prospective adopter and that's great.

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People, even agility people and other BC people, had no idea what Molly was and thought she was a lab or pit mix until she was about 16-18 weeks old. Lately there's no doubt that she's mostly BC - and she is a mix though I fail to see any ACD in that dog at all. It's kind of amusing, to be honest.

 

But only because I have her. If she'd been in a shelter and adopted out a lab mix someone would've been in for a rude awakening.

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One cool thing about working-bred pups/dogs is that there is no appearance standard so they can vary a lot. I have a petite bitch; an average dog (one pretty easily identified as a Border Collie except by show people); and Dan, who is certainly built "lurcher-style" and is a tri-color in addition.

 

Many people either look at them and simply see "black and white" so they assume they are all the same, and others see the difference in size and shape and assume they are all different but just similar in color.

 

People who are not "into" animals are interesting - I had a very non-animal friend who peeked in our barn at my dairy goats one day and asked, "How do you tell them apart?" Well, one was petite and black with little brown spots all over; one was medium-sized black with Irish markings; one was larger and black and white, with a big white band around her middle (like a Belted Galloway); one was smaller and blonde all over; another was smaller and light brown with blond spots; and so on. Simply said, no two were colored the same. But to her eyes, they were all just "goats" and looked alike.

 

I've had people who were only familiar with Border Collies through the breed ring or Westminster show absolutely insist my dogs were Border Collie mixes and could not be purebreds because they did not look just like the cookie-cutter variety of show dog that is heavily-coated, stout in stature, shorter-legged, heavy-boned, with tipped ears and a blunt head - the kind that win at shows.

 

Again, I diverge...

 

Going back to the question of not knowing what you are getting with a rescue pup, a couple of people have asked me what breed my 14 wo b/w bc pup is. That surprised me because people round here know what bcs look like but actually I suppose if he weren't mine I might be tempted to double check too. The way he looks now he could turn into a lurcher or even a staffie mix ( if I didn't know he was a full bc ).

 

Of course the uncertainty may be of no concern to a prospective adopter and that's great.

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Someone posted on FB a purebred young male that looks just like a male version of your Molly except that his ears (just as large) are fully pricked.

 

People, even agility people and other BC people, had no idea what Molly was and thought she was a lab or pit mix until she was about 16-18 weeks old. Lately there's no doubt that she's mostly BC - and she is a mix though I fail to see any ACD in that dog at all. It's kind of amusing, to be honest.

 

But only because I have her. If she'd been in a shelter and adopted out a lab mix someone would've been in for a rude awakening.

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This is my Great Dane mix puppy. He is a lot taller than a Border Collie, short coated and has huge feet plus extra toes on his back legs. The breeder obviously ripped me off because he was supposed to be a purebred Border Collie. :rolleyes:

 

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2014-09-11144402_zps2e7df065.png

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If someone wants a puppy, they needn't make excuses for getting one, but I really don't get the whole argument that getting a puppy somehow gives one a better chance of having the perfect structure for a particular sport.

 

I think Julie is really onto something here.

 

The question is does the OP really want a puppy?

 

If the answer is "yes" then I think finding a reputable breeder is her best course of action, as there might not be a way to verify the health or temperament of the parents of a rescue litter.

 

If the OP's priority is what her adult dog will be like and how it will fit into her life (agility, outdoor adventure, etc.) then I think finding a young adolescent dog through rescue is a more reliable way to go. She would have a better indicator of soundness, drive and temperament and would know the dog she's going to share the next decade + of her life with.

 

But as Julie said, some people just want a puppy and they shouldn't have to feel bad about making that choice.

 

Just my two cents...

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I understand perfectly well that some people want puppies. I am not trying to say anything about getting a puppy from a responsible breeder being less PC or immoral. What I am saying is that I've seen plenty of BCs that were raised in cities end up in rescue because the city just became too overwhelming. Buying or adopting a young adult will allow the selection of a dog that is stable and happy in such an environment.

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I do agree that if you're going to be anywhere with lots of foot traffic and cars that a young adult who has proven it can do it is a good idea. There's an idea that you can socialize a puppy to accept any environment and I really don't think that's true. Within reason, and socialization is great, but frankly Molly's so motion and noise sensitive that living somewhere with cars/bikes/people zipping by all the time and constant noise she'd be a nutcase.

 

Someone posted on FB a purebred young male that looks just like a male version of your Molly except that his ears (just as large) are fully pricked.

 

She could be purebred. We know mom is. We know dad is half BC. We were told his other half (his dad) was ACD, but there's no real way to verify that. Honestly, though, at 3/4 BC I was expecting a dog who looked and acted like a BC and got it, so I'm pretty happy all around, regardless.

 

I'm just happy that every time I deal with people I'm not being argued with about her predominant breed. It still happens because she's got a lot of black and a smooth coat, but at least some people occasionally back off with that explanation instead of actively trying to argue with me.


Though frankly I've had enough of it to have been trained to respond to "Pretty dog, what is she?" with "Molly."

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I understand perfectly well that some people want puppies. I am not trying to say anything about getting a puppy from a responsible breeder being less PC or immoral. What I am saying is that I've seen plenty of BCs that were raised in cities end up in rescue because the city just became too overwhelming. Buying or adopting a young adult will allow the selection of a dog that is stable and happy in such an environment.

 

Sorry Liz if it sounded like I was coming at the people who suggested rescue. Heck, *I* suggested rescue in my first few posts. I think it's a great way to know exactly what you are getting.

 

I really wanted the experience of raising a puppy when I got my first dog but honestly I don't think I'll ever have to do it again. Sure puppies are super cute but they are a pain in the a$s and take a tremendous amount of time, effort and energy. Needless to say, I discovered puppies are not really my thing. :P I enjoyed adolescence a LOT more then puppyhood and would probably rescue if I were to get another dog down the road. But who can say, that could change depending on my personal situation...

 

Anyways, didn't want to give the impression I was flaming those who have advised the OP to look into rescue 'cause if that were the case I'd be flaming myself as well. ;) It just sounds like the OP specifically wants a puppy and if that's her priority then a good breeder might be the best way to go.

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Sometimes I think agility folk are splitting hairs about non important things... But I've been told I'm not competitive enough so I don't get it. I'm ok with that. ;)

 

I think its sometimes a function of your experiences as well...my beloved Papillon Harley had back issues and later in life someone knowledgeable showed me some issues with his structure that an untrained eye might not see that likely contributed to his early onset arthritis and I'm sure years on pounding with agility didn't help either.

 

So then you start eyeballing things more critically.

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I guess I got the best of both worlds, as my rescue puppy has two registered working parents; one of them is a littermate to a "big deal" Canadian dog. The litter was an oopsie. Agility people told me when he was a puppy that he was "too straight" to be good for anything. He is actually lovely in almost every way, and a beautiful jumper. His agility failings are, I'm sure, mostly mine. He's a big beautiful smart crazy athletic boy and I couldn't be happier, even though I sometimes want to throttle him and make him just LIE DOWN ALREADY.

 

But back to shelters labeling breeds ... I've come to the conclusion over the years of working in shelter and rescue that there are people who are good at identifying breeds or breed possibilities and people who are not. Both love animals, but some people have the knack and some people just can't do it. I fall into the former camp, but that does not mean I'm not stumped on occasion and as I have to label the dog as *something* there's a good possibility that I'm going to be snatching at faeries when I do it. The bully breeds give me fits, because I still for the life of me can't figure out what a "pit bull" is, like when I get two dogs from the same home and one is 85lbs with a head twice the size of mine and the other is 35lbs soaking wet and the owner says they are both pitties.

 

The pit bull rescues will accuse shelters of labeling anything with a tree trunk for a head a pit bull. Much like BC people get all persnickety when anything black and white gets called a BC or BC mix. I've even had other shelters try to give me black and white dogs that are anything but BCs and are confused when I tell them no thank you.

 

I've gotten pretty good at reading border collies, even puppies, as good sport potential. It doesn't have anything to do with structure though, it's something a little more ethereal than that. They will not all be good candidates.

 

I made a mistake and got Italian Greyhounds. I read all about them, I did my research, and I still didn't realize until i got them that they are not the breed for me. If I got a border collie that behaved like an IG, I would be unhappy. So I get why people want a breed that behaves like the breed it's supposed to be and why they'd go to a breeder to get just that. But if you're lucky enough to find a rescue that knows what they are doing, a rescue is more than adequate for most people's needs. I just read about a lovely looking BC on facebook being rehomed by an all-breed rescue and they described "heel nipping as being in the breed's DNA" and "LOLed" about the dog "herding buses" among other cringe-worthy descriptors. The dog sounds like a nightmare to me, and in a rescue that knew wtf they were talking about, there'd be a greater chance the dog would be matched up with someone who would get what they wanted, rather then just getting a border collie that acts like Satan :(

 

RDM

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I have always gotten rescues, though not puppies, and have never had a problem with them wanting to do my chosen sports/activities. I think with older dogs you can better tell what their personality is like and how active they will be. I've never had a problem with structure being an issue with my rescued BCs or my rescued mixes.

 

I've known more than a few people who carefullyselected a breeder and their pups did not pan our to be what was expected. I think puppies are always going to be somewhat of a crap shoot. Yes, they are more likely to be like their parents and related offspring, but there's always the possibility that they won't.

 

If you have some good criteria that you're looking for a 6 month or older rescue can be just as sure a bet as a well bred pup.

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I'm sure experience matters. My poor experiences with purebred breeders are a lot of why I now have a shelter dog. I feel a bit jaded at this point every time I hear people espousing how predictable a 'well bred' dog is compared to a shelter dog. Mine have not been very healthy or temperamentally sound. Maybe it would have been better in a real working breed but most agility people I'm around are getting sports or show bred dogs. My dogs were sport and show bred of various breeds. My dog I recently retired has a lot of famous sport relatives in her breed... AKC national champions, world team members, MACHs and such. She has a lot of health and temperament problems. My terribly shy dog had two MACH littermates and many more relatives with high level titles.

 

At any rate, I do agility once a week and trial one weekend a month usually so I'm not sure unless the dog has horrific structure if it will even matter if he's a bit too straight here or too long in the croup. But if you were training daily and competing every weekend then yeah it'd probably be more important. When I see people saying they want to get into agility most just want to take a few classes, and maybe compete.

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I have 11 dogs in my house right now, all rescues. One is a Regional Champion ... such a forgiving boy he is :) Only a couple of them play my sport of choice - some are now retired, some just aren't up to it and some I don't want to work with to the degree I would have to in order to get them playing at any competitive level. But I have been playing for a long time, and if I were not at all serious about playing agility, just about any one of them would be fine to fart around with. Except the Iggies. Stupid skinny little things ;-)

 

RDM

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