Should we neuter Jack

[alligande]

If a dog/bitch is not fixed, won't it impact their interactions with other dogs(For example in a dog park)? Say a Bitch is in heat, she might cause a dog fight. An Intact male may be aggressive towards other dogs and mark, which might mean piss marks everywhere.

 

How is an average owner supposed to control these if he decides to take the advice and do not operate his dog.

I am currently in Spain, and most of the dogs we encounter are intact. Most evenings we join a group of dogs in the park and for the most part it is a very mannerly bunch, the dogs interact on their own or with thrown toys, and the owners are just regular pet owners, some with well trained dogs and others with ones who don't understand a single command. We have had a few encounters with snippy little dogs who just seem to hate the sight of Rievaulx, but they are just being yappy little beasts and one nasty GSD. We go because it is the only nice patch of grass within walking distance of the apartment and at night the police ignore the group of law breaking dogs... safety in numbers

What I have noticed is that being an intact male is a non-issue, with a long haired dog it is not obvious but with the multitude of short haired dogs its very obvious and no one bats an eyelid. I think some of the issues come from the tension at the end of the leash.

 

And I agree you don't take a bitch in season to the dog park.....

[highway61]

...Oddly enough, annecdotal experience seems to point to the idea that neutered males are often the aggressor toward intact ones.

 

I've heard the same from three different dog trainers bolstering their "get him neutered" advice. But do I live in the 'burbs where there are many interactions with other dogs so its certainly something to consider. I told one trainer I was taking Sammy to the dog park and her response was to shake her head and say " I would never take an intact dog to a dog park". Not that there have ever been any problems there, but we rarely go anyway.

[Maralynn]

 

I've heard the same from three different dog trainers bolstering their "get him neutered" advice. But do I live in the 'burbs where there are many interactions with other dogs so its certainly something to consider. I told one trainer I was taking Sammy to the dog park and her response was to shake her head and say " I would never take an intact dog to a dog park". Not that there have ever been any problems there, but we rarely go anyway.

While I know you're making an informed decision based on what's best for your dog in your situation, the trainer's reasoning behind that advice is a bit mind boggling to me. Neutering is often spoke of as a cure for behavioral issues but, if that is indeed the case, it sounds like it has the potential to create some.

[highway61]

....While I know you're making an informed decision based on what's best for your dog in your situation, the trainer's reasoning behind that advice is a bit mind boggling to me....

 

Really? Not saying its good advice but pretty common all the same in my own personal experience.

 

Of the three or four trainers who have told me this, they're pretty consistent. Scare tactic or not, they explain that the altered dogs sniff out the intact dog from blocks away and the intact dog is a target to the numerous majority of neutered dogs in an open setting. I've witnessed this to a minimal degree. One advised me staying out of the dog park and using the school yard where there are more familiar dogs to us which is the advice I have heeded.

[Maralynn]

I guess I worded that a bit wrong - it is valid reasoning because of the increased risk. But the issue should be solved by the other owners training and controlling their dogs. If I had a neutered dog that was agressive toward intact dogs, then I would understand it to be *my* issue to train/desensitize for. Not the owner of the other dog (so long as it was appropriate in it's behavior)

[Gloria Atwater]

Thanks for your advice and apologise again for the lack of detail and i appreciate your patients

I was concerned with wandering as he has little to no road sence at the moment and i'am sure jack could escape if he really wanted to.

........

I was trying to relate behaviour and testosterone if neutering could have advantages with un wanted behaviour or on the other hand if it could take away the spark with what makes Jack the already accepted companion he is.

 

My thought is that a lot depends on the individual dog. I rescued my old Jesse dog at 2 years old, still intact, and although he was a happy, good natured boy, he peed on everything in sight - including my leg! When I got him neutered, the behavior virtually vanished.

 

However, a friend of mine has two males dogs one neutered and one intact. The one she had neutered at age 2. He STILL pees on everything, acts territorial, hates my intact male dog and gets overprotective of her bitches when they are in heat.

 

Her other male is coming 6 years old and still intact. He's polite, non-confrontational, is not obsessive about marking/peeing, gets along fine with my intact male and doesn't bird-dog the females at all. (She kennels him when they are in heat, of course.)

 

With those two dogs, it's personalities, not testosterone that make them who they are.

 

As per wandering, yes, there is always the chance an intact male could escape if he senses a bitch in heat somewhere nearby. But I feel that if a dog is prone to wandering and fence jumping, he's going to do that whether he has testosterone or not. Certainly plenty of neutered strays are found wandering loose. It's our responsibility to make sure our dogs' area has a secure fence. Neutering is NOT proof against a dog escaping to roam the neighborhood.

 

In summary, owning an intact dog means we are responsible for the entire dog, including his sexuality. It's on us to train them to correct behaviors, be wise and thoughtful in our management of them, and assure they are housed in such a fashion that they are safe and secure. Neutering is never a replacement for good training and good upbringing.

 

~ Gloria

[GentleLake]

As per wandering, yes, there is always the chance an intact male could escape if he senses a bitch in heat somewhere nearby. But I feel that if a dog is prone to wandering and fence jumping, he's going to do that whether he has testosterone or not. Certainly plenty of neutered strays are found wandering loose. It's our responsibility to make sure our dogs' area has a secure fence. Neutering is NOT proof against a dog escaping to roam the neighborhood.

 

 

I had a mixed pointer/retriever years ago who was neutered at 9 months old (before I knew better). He had quite the wanderlust all his 14 remaining years.

 

I think with some dogs there may be a genetic component. His father was shot for roaming right before he was born.

[Liz P]

Neutering doesn't make a dog suddenly obedient, but it often makes them question command less. The simple fact of the matter is, some dogs do make much better pets if neutered. How many times do you hear of trial people neutering a male they decided not to breed and being much more happy with them once they are neutered? It happens quite a bit.

 

There are also situations in which neutering can be a big help with behavioral problems. I will use one of my own dogs as an example. He was attacked multiple times by loose pit bulls. This left him severely fear aggressive. Neutering him made him much less of a target to other male dogs. Being less of a target helped him relax and be less fearful. It also took away the sexual tension, making him more relaxed in general.

 

If you can't handle an intact dog, neuter it. Better neutered and happy in your home than dumped in a shelter because he is obnoxious. (This is the general you, not directed at the OP.)

[B Point]

Tio was slated to get neutered at around 12 months but then he fell lame. Now at 17 months and pretty much recovered we are deciding to wait a few more months if for nothing else but to give him a break. He will never see a dog park and when outside he sticks right with me...even off leash and other dogs around. That may change though as he further matures.

[Jackus McCrackus]

Thank you all for your help and advice;

 

There seems to be some debate on this topic in general, and without really reaching an absolute conclusion it has given me much food for thought.

"Jack will be neutered" i can say that with a-surety now, with it appearing to be the generally consciences for non breeders to do so, with the positives out weighting the negatives.

 

The question is now when? As advised from my vet (6 months) or from many other experts' breeders' & owners' speaking from personal experiences which seems to point at around (18 months).

 

The advantages for earlier neutering seem to be more towards unwanted behaviours when reaching maturity: e.g. spraying & roaming, as to waver from these traits before they become learnt behaviour.

 

The advantages of later neutering, appearing to be more towards growth and development.

 

I think we are going to put off from the vets advice on this instance, as I do agree that we shouldn't have it done for the wrong reasons and that being as a behaviour management remedy, instead more education "on our behalf" with further training should be the first option.

 

Kind regards: Paul

[D'Elle]

I would put off neutering or spaying a dog as long as I could, unless there were a good reason to do it earlier.

 

And yes, as someone pointed out, there can be good reasons not to neuter a dog: I have a friend whose standard poodle has a seizure disorder, and he has not been neutered because apparently the neutering can cause that to increase. But she is the most responsible of dog people and can handle the situation - her dog is never out of her control.

 

I think if I had a choice in the matter I would wait one and a half to two years to do it.

 

I am frustrated by the fact that, if you adopt a puppy from a shelter, they force you to spay or neuter before you take the puppy home, even if the pup is only 6 weeks old. This seems dangerous to me. I managed to get around it the last time I adopted a kitten, because he was ill when I got him, and I just kept telling the shelter that he was still ill for over a year!

 

Of course, the shelters and rescue groups feel they have to insist on it, and I understand their reasoning. They have no resources to chase after people and make sure they have done it a year later. But I do fear for the health of the animals who are done too early.

[Sue R]

Based on my admittedly limited experience and what I have read in some scientific studies, I would wait until the growth plates are closed, about 18 months of age.

 

I know a lot of folks with intact dogs and bitches, and a lot to do with their behavior is not just when (or if) they are neutered but more generally how they are handled and trained.

 

Best wishes with whatever you decide!

 

Thank you all for your help and advice;

 

There seems to be some debate on this topic in general, and without really reaching an absolute conclusion it has given me much food for thought.

"Jack will be neutered" i can say that with a-surety now, with it appearing to be the generally consciences for non breeders to do so, with the positives out weighting the negatives.

 

The question is now when? As advised from my vet (6 months) or from many other experts' breeders' & owners' speaking from personal experiences which seems to point at around (18 months).

 

The advantages for earlier neutering seem to be more towards unwanted behaviours when reaching maturity: e.g. spraying & roaming, as to waver from these traits before they become learnt behaviour.

 

The advantages of later neutering, appearing to be more towards growth and development.

 

I think we are going to put off from the vets advice on this instance, as I do agree that we shouldn't have it done for the wrong reasons and that being as a behaviour management remedy, instead more education "on our behalf" with further training should be the first option.

 

Kind regards: Paul

[juliepoudrier]

FWIW, I have cats who were pediatric neuters at the shelter. So far, several years later, I can see no adverse health effects. If course they are not dogs, but the lack of certain hormones should have a similar effect at any rate, and I haven't detected any difference between them and the cats I've had that were neutered later (though I have never waited for growth plates to close as I would with a dog).

 

J.

[Liz P]

Julie, I had the unfortunate experience of adopting a cat that developed necrotic femoral necks. This is believed to be a consequence of early neuter. He had to have a bilateral FHO. It was horrible to watch him in so much pain and a very expensive experience.

 

On a weekly basis I see male cats with FLUTD. Some of these cats will block and not be able to urinate. Smaller urethras are a consequence of being neutered early. I really wonder if a lot of them would not block had they been neutered later. At our clinic we try to wait to neuter male cats until closer to 6 months of age. Wait much longer and they start to spray in the house, which would result in them being dumped outside or in a shelter.

 

Balance these considerations with the massive cat overpopulation problem. People tend to not control the reproduction of their cats as well as they do their dogs. Cats also tend to reproduce quite efficiently in feral colonies. Kittens and cats needing homes are a dime a dozen in every part of the country I've lived in. From this standpoint, I won't argue with shelters neutering prior to adoption, even at 8 weeks old. I am certain that far more cats are euthanized because they are unwanted than there are cats euthanized because their owners can't afford treatment of diseases related to pediatric neuters.

 

The issue gets more complicated with dogs. I do think most dogs (in the hands of the average AMERICAN owner) are better off being neutered fairly young. For females this means prior to their first heat cycle and for males before a year of age. I have a risk vs benefit discussion with all my clients. Most still choose to neuter young. For the most part, the people who choose to wait are the more experience owners that are on top of training, behavior and responsible management.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree completely Liz. One of the questions I had before adopting the male kitten was whether he would have trouble later with a smaller than normal urethra. I guess that ends up being the luck of the draw, but I'm willing to accept that risk if it means fewer cats (especially) being allowed to reproduce.

 

J.

[Jackus McCrackus]

What do you mean when you say "put up a fight to get his way"?

More information is needed in order for us to give advice.

Neutering is not cruel.

Neutering doesn't have any negative health consequences, and all dogs should be spayed or neutered unless being used in a breeding program by someone who is an expert.

 

Seriously: You might want to try using punctuation in your posts. It is very hard to read what you are writing without any punctuation!

[GentleLake]

I agree with Liz, too.

 

The whole thing about pediatric spays is a bit of a sticky wicket, imo. It's certainly not ideal for the animals, but pet overpopulation is a serious problem in the US with so many dogs and cats being euthanized as a result. I can understand why shelters insist on spaying even pups and kittens prior to their being adopted, even though I don't like it.