JoshuaLG Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 I'm looking into getting some BCs but have a few questions for those who have some experience with them. I probably won't be showing them but I do want to train them to do tricks and even to herd. My question is, since I don't have any sheep or cattle for them to herd, will training/playing with them through out the day be enough to keep them healthy and prevent them from becoming bored? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 The thing to know about border collies is that their *brains* are the busiest part of them. It's not running 10 miles a day or playing frisbee for hours on end that they need. It's your time and attention, good training and healthy amounts of personal interaction. Border collies get bored when their brains have nothing to do, not because their person didn't throw the ball long enough.So, if you have ample time to devote to a dog, the willingness to learn what you don't know, the ability to realize that you're dealing with an animal possessing a 300-year old instinct to work at SOMETHING - even if it's just helping you pick up the paper and turn out lights - and the patience to deal with the fact that sometimes they can out think you ... you'll probably be okay. Tricks and games are great ways to interact with a border collie. So are little jobs or tasks such as picking things up.But they also need to learn quiet time and the ability to relax and just chill. You don't have to interact with them all day long. Just every day for a decent amount of time. They are, as I tell people, a full time dog, not a backyard pet.Hope this helps! Since you mention showing, a small thing to remember about this forum: we are not friends of the AKC. ;Also, I just reread and noticed you said you were looking into getting "some BCs." Until you learn more about the breed, I wouldn't rush to have more than one! If there are any sheepdog trials in your area, go to some, watch and learn about border collies in their native condition.Welcome to the forum!~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Thanks for the welcome and reply Gloria, Do you know if they would be good around chickens? I raise them and keep them separate from where I plan to keep the BC. I'm only wondering because occasionally one gets loose and if it should happen to wander through into the dog yard I'm not sure if the dog would attack it. What kind of accommodations would the dog(s) need? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 You said this website is not friends with the AKC, why is this? About showing, I'm really not planning on it as it is too expensive to travel around the country, and I don't have the time for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Search the AKC in the search bar above. Or, if you get a chance, look up on youtube and look for both the AKC dog shows (particularly border collies), and the videos of trials like Soldier Hollow, and look at the difference in the dogs and the different things that both groups are looking for in dogs. AKC mandates breeding of dogs to an appearance standard only, co-opts breeds when most of the fanciers are against it, and uses its registrations from puppy mills to subsidize its money-losing shows. They have an incentive to get as many pet shop puppies registered (and sold to the public) as possible (see the links for how they try to do that). It also mandates that dogs bred under its aegis are bred within a closed registry (i.e. progressively inbred over time to keep them 'pure', no new blood allowed). This means that, by definition, it is (a) bad for working dogs and ( bad for dogs in general. Breeding dogs to an appearance rather than an ability standard will, over time, remove that ability. Some dog fanciers will argue this, but think about it- they would never dream of breeding purely for ability and then expecting that dog to win in a show ring, because it wouldn't have been bred for the right ear set, eye expression etc and so wouldn't have it. Same principle in reverse. The border collie was bred for ability, created for ability, so if you breed for something else the position on this board is that you're not really breeding border collies. It's like saying you're breeding for golden retrievers, but you want to breed for golden retrievers which are black and 20lb. You're not breeding for golden retrievers any more, you have created something else and should call it by a different name. The AKC, and the whole system of closed-registries-and-dog-shows in general, promotes exaggeration, selection for purely appearance (which will be usually at the cost of health and always at the cost of working ability) and inbreeding. You can see that in the dogs produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 So really looks aren't that important so long as it has good herding instincts. Another thing I don't like in the AKC is the so called "necessary" docking of tails in many breeds (and of course the ears too) Do you know where the ABCA stands on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 When I asked where the ABCA stood, I was asking what their view was on how the AKC runs things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Well, an indicator from the ABCA is that they will de-register any dog that earns an AKC Conformation Champion Title. That is how strongly they feel about breeding for physical type, rather than function.Looks are absolutely NOT a criteria for the working border collie. If you were to go to a sheepdog trial, especially a big national one, you'd see every physical type possible, from small, smooth and whippet-like to big, blocky and wooly, from pointy ears to airplane ears to ears like hound dogs, from long slender muzzles to heavier, blunter ones, from brown eyes to golden to blue, from freckles to piebald to almost black or nearly white, from low and stylish at work to plain and upright. All that really matters is that the dog can work.For the stance of this forum, you can read the Welcome post, here:http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showannouncement=1&f=7And for an overview of the border collie and the AKC, you can read this:http://www.bordercollie.org/culture/culture.htmlHope this helps, and please feel free to ask any questions you may have. We are passionate about our dogs and their breeding and future, but we do wish to inform and educate newcomers to the breed. Best regards,Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Thanks for the links, are their any good books on BCs? Alright, since you asked for questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Thanks for the links, are their any good books on BCs? Alright, since you asked for questions .... How trainable are they? Are they good around big families? (9 people in our home) Are they aggressive? Would they be okay in an average doghouse or would they need special housing? Do they tolerate heat? (Our Summers are 85-110 not to mention the humidity) And in case we are gone for the day and nobody can exercise them, would they be okay? Thanks They are very trainable. The real question is, how good a trainer are you, and what do you want your dog to learn? Remember, being the world's smartest dog means that even when you're not teaching them something, they may be learning something on their own. Raised correctly, a border collie can be fine in an average household. In other words, they should be shown correct behavior in the home and all people in the house should follow the same rules of behavior with the dog. No having Ma scold the dog for begging while Pa slips him scraps under the table, and no Aunt Mavis scolding him for jumping on her clean clothes while Uncle Buster coaxes the dog to jump up. The humans must be educated along with the dog. Per big families ... it depends on the family and the dog. Bear in mind that as working/herding dogs, border collies can be sensitive to noise, movement and activity. They can be reactive to it, especially if they feel overwhelmed by it, and that reactivity can range from hiding someplace to snapping at people. I would not recommend a border collie for a large, boisterous, busy household - unless that household is very dog savvy. Per aggression, no, border collies are not known for aggression. However, they are not as mellow as golden retrievers or labs, so sometimes they can be a little wary of strangers. They can get in trouble for nipping children if the children trigger a chase reaction or get grabby with the dog. Plus, sometimes border collies don't like to be grabbed or hugged, and sometimes they get snappy with very forward, pushy dogs like labs, rottweilers or boxers, even if those dogs mean to be friendly. Per heat and humidity, bear in mind that border collies were bred in the highlands of Scotland, England and Wales. These dog are not tropical dogs and often have heavy coats. If you live where it is very hot and humid, the dog will need good shade, the ability to stay cool and shelter from radiant heat or direct sun. In other words, he may not fare well living out in the yard when it's 110 with 80% humidity. Per exercise, a properly raised and kept border collie is fine with being left home alone from time to time. Many people work 8 hour jobs and come home to work and train their dogs after. When a pup is young, it helps to have someone come home in the middle of the day to potty and play with it. Bear in mind that while a border collie is bred to travel and work 10 to 30 miles per day, it's not endless hours of running, play or frisbee that they require most. If we raise a border collie to play and run constantly and be busy endlessly, then that's what they'll expect all the time. What they really need are activities that satisfy their minds and engage their desire to partner with you. A bored border collie is a problem border collie, and walks around the block just don't cut it. He needs to be a central part of your life, so that the periods where he does have to stay home and be bored are just occasional things. Hope this helps! ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I am moving this topic to the General Border Collie Discussion forum, as this Ask an Expert forum is only for questions about training and using dogs for livestock work, and those questions are meant to be answered only by our "expert-in-residence," who currently is Amanda Milliken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 If you haven't done so already, PLEASE read the "Read this First" section pinned at the top of this forum (and every other forum on this board). Then go to the tabs across the top of this bulletin board and read through some of the articles under the "BC Cultuer" tab. Doing both those things will get you a long way toward answering many of the questions you have regarding the philosophy of this board (with respect to AKC and breeding for other than work) and border collies in general. Border collies can be trained to do a lot of things, including working poultry. As with anything else, it would be your responsibility to teach your border collie that chickens are not to be chased/killed. Some dogs have a greater prey drive than others, but teaching them not to kill small animals is a good idea no matter what. Up until a recent move, my border collies, indoor/outdoor cats, and free range chickens all shared the same space peacefully. But a "Peaceable Kingdom" is achieved through training. How a dog (any dog, including a border collie) would fare in a household of nine depends entirely on those 9 people. It could be complete confusion and chaos for the dog (which probably wouldn't turn out well for the dog) or it could work out just fine. How that goes is up to you and the other people living there. I'm not sure why you would even bring up AKC or showing on this forum. If you had read through some of the threads (as anyone new to a forum should do) or read the "Read This First" welcome/introduction topic, you would know that the AKC and especially conformation showing are seriously frowned on here. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 How trainable are they? The dog can be trained to do pretty much anything with enough time and a good trainer. Being the smartest dog does have a major downfall for some inexperienced trainers: they thrive on consistancy, so make sure in training you use the same command with the same hand signal or they may think you are training a new command. Some are even sensitive to tone of voice and the command. Sometimes they will even outsmart the human. If you aren't prepared for that a less clever dog breed may be the one for you.So the real question is how good a trainer are you? Are they good around big families? (9 people in our home) If you either raise one around a lot of people they should be ok. However that's more people the primary owner, whoever that may be, needs to teach how to interact with the dogs, because like i said they thrive on consistancy. Also one person needs to be the primary owner, because the dog will bond with one person better than just being 'everyone's' dog. They will look to that person for guidance during confusion a lot of times. Both of my dogs are primarily 'my' dogs, but they still listen to and love my DH. You may also want to consider rescuing an older dog with its personality formed, because puppies are ever changing and though it could be a good family dog at eight weeks old at a year it could be terrified of everything because of it. My Lily would have done horribly in a large family because of her fear issues. Are they aggressive? Not typically, but some are or can be. If there are young children in the house beware the BC will likely try to herd them and nip at them while they run. Another reason to comsider adopting an adult dog known to be great with young children. Would they be okay in an average doghouse or would they need special housing? They should be fine in any dog house, however I have to ask would the dog be outside all the time? Do they tolerate heat? (Our Summers are 85-110 not to mention the humidity) Again they would be fine for average amounts of time, but I wouldn't reccomend them be out in the heat for long periods of time without a good well built shelter with adequate shade. And in case we are gone for the day and nobody can exercise them, would they be okay? For eight hours or so (the average work day) yes, but more then that I would say you are going to come home to either your your or house torn up out of boredom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemsMom Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Read "The Dog Wars" by Donald McCaig. http://www.infopet.co.uk/pages/3140a.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Welcome to the forum! The very best thing that you can do to educate yourself about border collies is to read these forums. Read everything!! Start by reading the sticky notes ("Read This First") that Eileen has posted at the top of each forum to educate yourself about the philosophy of this site and of border collie people. Read THE DOG WARS. Read every single forum thread that you can. Read it every day. This site is an amazing wealth of information, and many experts contribute to it. In addition to the experts there are a whole lot of people like me who have border collies and are constantly learning about them, and who post experiences and questions here. Do your research, and do it thoroughly, and do it for, I would say, a minimum of six months before you even start to look for a dog. You may find out you don't really want a border collie, or you may decide it is the dog for you. but do the research first! You have fortunately found the very best place online to do that, right here. Others have addressed your questions very well, so I will only add that I live in a place where it is over 100 degrees more often than not for three months out of the year. My border collies do fine in the heat if left outdoors, but they have shade, a place to dig down into cool dirt under a shed, and lots of water. (I want to mention that they are not left outside all the time; only sometimes if I am to be gone for a few hours). They are also acclimated to this climate. If you raise a young dog in a hot climate, the dog will acclimate. If you took a 5 year old dog from Maine and brought him here to southern AZ, the dog would probably suffer. Also, a border collie should not be left outside all the time, but should have a place in the home with the family, as should any other companion dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Thank you all for the replies, does anyone know where I can find an ABCA breeder directory? How well do they do in the winter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Thank you all for the replies, does anyone know where I can find an ABCA breeder directory? How well do they do in the winter? Do you plan on keeping the dog outside 24/7? Some of your previous questions make me wonder if you are just looking for a backyard dog (which everyone has their opinion on). Winter shouldn't be a concern if the dog is going to live with you and your family. Border collies can still go for long walks, hikes and playful romps in cold and snowy weather. Keeping a dog outside all year with just a dog house, is not my idea of fun for the average border collie. Unless you plan to provide better living provisions and still supplying daily training, exercising and stimulation to the dog. Border collies crave doing something with their owners, working, training, playing, whatever that may be. For breeders, if you mention the town/city or general area you live in, many regulars on this board will be able to direct you in the right direction and offer names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Thank you all for the replies, does anyone know where I can find an ABCA breeder directory? How well do they do in the winter? There is no ABCA breeder directory, but as Waffles said, if you name what state/region you are in, people may be able to recommend some good breeders within a few hours of you. As for winter, you mentioned earlier that you live in a hot, humid climate so I'd presume your winters to be wet. As with any dog, a border collie needs good shelter in ALL seasons, whether it's hot or cold. They should have a dry, clean, sheltered place away from heat or cold and wet, but with access to the outside where they can potty and stay tidy. That said, I do advise against keeping a pet border collie out in a kennel. Working dogs often have kennels, but their kennel is where they go to rest and relax after a good day out. However, a pet BC who is kept outside in a kennel is a recipe for the development of neurotic, undesirable behaviors such as barking, digging, spinning, climbing and other obsessive, repetitive actions. As I said earlier, a border collie is a full-time dog who must be part of your everyday lifestyle. They do not fare well as pets in the back yard who only get a little play and a walk each day. Cheers ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 It sounds as if I might have to look for a different breed since there aren't any herd animals yet for them to round up. My main reasons for wanting border collies were because they are a high energy breed, or in other words a dog that wouldn't tire out after hours of playing (I have 6 siblings who would help with that), and a herding dog to train for our future farm. But like I said, since I don't have any animals to keep them busy, will playtime/training be enough to keep them occupied, or keep them happy? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Would the ABCA be against someone that bred for agility and appearances? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 I'm not siding with the AKC, just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemsMom Posted September 23, 2014 Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 If you produce puppies for anything but the intended purpose of the breed you have lost the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted September 23, 2014 Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Hi Joshua, are you the one that would be responsible for the dog? are you looking for a family dog? What are *your* plans for a dog? Border Collies like routine, they like like to know what is expected of them. They need a person to belong too more than they need to be worn out. Several of the things yu mention in your posts a Border Collie could be fine with, but the combination of all of them makes me think that you would be better off with a different breed right now. For instance, a BC could be fine living outside if it had regular work and a job. A BC could be fine in a large family setting IF it had one person who proactively made sure it's needs were met. It could be fine around chickens IF it was managed/trained properly (and that would proabably mean physical barriers) But when you start stacking several things together, then it makes me think that you should proabably wait until you have a farm and training mentor before getting a BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaLG Posted September 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Yes, I would be the main person responsible. There is a lot for me to think about and it may be for the better that I choose a different breed until I get on a farm. Thank you all for helping in answering my questions. I will definitely be returning to this site if I get some. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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