All Hell Broke loose tonight

[HJTRAS]

Ziggy the female BC has been testing her place in our pack of 4. Well Our big lab mix 130 lb male. Decided today he would put her in her place and he attacked her " he did this in the past. I posted about it." Well this went in a different direction Ziggy submits but she squealed and then our other female Dezi rotti mix heard the squeal. She ran in and broke it up. All parties are ok but we now have the females side by side. My wife took control of the skirmish. The little male terrier runs for cover scared out of his mind. Ziggy is not one to lay low. she has been staring at Dublin her aggressor. Dublin new he did wrong and is currently in his bad dog spot. But I am afraid that a rivalry is underway. So We are on alert.

[Gloria Atwater]

Well, you did speak of this when you came to these boards and we did warn you very strongly to be careful. It's your job to ensure this does not happen. That big dog - whom you've said can be aggressive - could kill or maim her in a heartbeat. Never think this can't happen to you.

And never think that Dublin "knew he did wrong." He only knows he displeased you. This does not mean he's changed his attitude towards Ziggy one bit. Do not let her stare at him, because that is a direct challenge and can build his resentment and antagonism towards her. Do not allow her to tease or torment him, or stare at him or even haunt or shadow him. All these things are rude behaviors on her part that could easily trigger him to attack her once more.

I say again, never assume tragedy can't happen in your household. It can. They are animals and they don't think with human values. Be careful. Be vigilant. Be smart.

Best wishes.

~ Gloria

[GentleLake]

^^ Couldn't have said it better.

[Maralynn]

Sigh. Please take to heart what Gloria has written. I'm glad your dogs are fine now, you (they) might not be as lucky next time.

[RemsMom]

I will chime in too and say listen to Gloria. I have the most easy going German Shepherd and he loves small dogs. However, he sometimes gets annoyed with the puppy antics. I don't think he would ever hurt Nattie but I am very careful to watch and not let her bother him. I never forget that he is powerful enough to kill her.

[teresaserrano]

You know your dogs best. Do not allow any harrassing or provocation, even slight almost unnoticeable things, on both parts. Don´t let them together unsupervised. They have to clearly understand what rules they are suposed to follow and you must make sure they follow them always.

 

Some years ago I had 2 females, a young one and an old blind one. The pup, who was bigger, just wanted to be friends, but the old dog had no tolerance and started a quarrel at every opportunity. As the pup grew, she started to answer in kind. I enforced strict rules where they stayed in their beds when inside and weren't allowed to bother the other one in any way, and the problem got solved.

 

One important thing is follow through. If one dog is, say, staring the other down and you want him on his bed and looking the other way, don't settle for half of it, don't give up till the dog is showing understanding of what you expect him to do and is really doing it.

[dsmbc]

yes, what everyone else said! it will only get worse.

[simba]

What happened before he attacked her? Or was it just the ongoing staring?

[GentleLake]

I was thinking about what Gloria said about your 130 lb. dog being capable of killing or maiming your smaller dog.

 

That's definitely true, but I'd like to add that even though Ziggy is smaller now, and will always be smaller, when she gets older she'll be capable of doing a lot of damage herself. I've seen border collies in fights with other dogs and they have a tendency to dart in and bite, then they're out before the bigger, slower dog can react. And if they're determined to fight, they'll do this over and over again. If they're truly being aggressive, the bite can be more like a slash.

 

I had a border collie once, about 35 lbs. who did.not.like the big Lab across the street. This is exactly how she'd fight. It wasn't pretty, but from a dog's point of view, it was very effective. (Needless to say, we made sure she was always confined or supervised so there were no repeat episodes.)

[HJTRAS]

I agree with Gloria and I did miss the signs. Dublin was acting frustrated all day and I even mentioned it to my wife.

Dublin is not allowed toys because he becomes possessive of them. But he snuck a rock in the house and I assume Ziggy tried to take it from him. Dublin is in his bad dog spot and I am making sure Ziggy doesn't mess with him. Dezi has been like a mother to Ziggy and she has been keeping her eye on Ziggy following her around. Thank You for your help.

[Tommy Coyote]

You never want to underestimate how awful a dog fight can get. Dogs in fight mode will try and tear each other to pieces. And you also really want to careful not to get your hands down where they can get bitten. You can really get hurt in a dog fight.

 

I was in a house one time where there were 6 dogs that were normally all out together without a problem. I don't know what set it off but 5 of the dogs jumped the old dog. We were able to get them backed off but those dogs would have torn that old dog to pieces.

 

The woman that had those dogs didn't pay close enough attention to who was irritating who. And that stress will build and build and then one day some seemingly insignificant thing will set it off. And those kinds of dog fights can be really bad.

 

Then she kenneled two of dogs together and they got into it and one dog had to have 17 stitches. She would just throw them all in there together and hope for the best.

[Maxi]

The others all give very good advice. I would just add a couple of extra bits.

 

Firstly, a bitch can become much more moody and aggressive and easier to be provoked when she is coming into season.

.

Secondly,a dog in pain can also act unpredictably. Recently, my younger bitch (16 month old) started grumbling and attempting to stare out my other dogs. I put her firmly in her place, but wondered at this complete alteration in her personality ( she was definitely not coming into season).. That night she started to have bloody diarrhoea. . Once she was treated, she regained her sweet, playful nature. So I can only guess she was having gut cramps and was blaming the other dogs for the pain, but I'm certainly still keeping a close eye on her and the others just in case.

 

As Gloria and the others say, you need to know your dogs, be fully aware of the earliest signals even if it is' just' a stare from across the room and don,t allow them to even consider provoking each other..

[Shetlander]

Dublin is in his bad dog spot

What does this mean, exactly?

[Maralynn]

I've been thinking about this and wondering why are you sure that Dublin is the aggressor? One of your earlier posts mentioned "herding" behavior by Ziggy directed at your other dogs. If this is still going on it very well could have played into this incident.

[sandysfarm]

You know, dog management is funny; we tend to run our households based on what we know currently about dogs, and not because we absorb anecdotal information very well. Then something, usually unpleasant, happens, and our skillset gets updated because of the personal experience. Years ago, and on a requested consult, I described the precautions that a brand new greyhound owner "should" be taking as he walked his hound on a public trail that he and the dog enjoyed very much. The (very nice) owner said it was all ok; he would watch the dog (sort of ). That guy had developed a whole back story about why his dog stared at dogs, puppies and even little kids - he was lonely for company and was still nervous of new people, yada yada. Until one day, same trail, LEASHED, the dog grabbed a 25 lb poodle by the neck, banged it up and down on the ground until it was dead and then tore off its ear, which he proceeded to chew. At which point, that owner had quite a bit more experience than a lot of his peers....not to put too fine a point on it.

[HJTRAS]

Dublin's bad dog spot is a corner away from us and the other dogs. He only goes to that spot if he does something bad. So we call it his bad dog spot. Ziggy is very readable because she gives that long stare so we know to change her attention.. Dublin just reacts. But as I said his behavior that day was off.

[Tommy Coyote]

Sandysfarm: Dogs aren't people. Underneath all that civilized stuff still lives a predator that is capable of doing a whole lot of damage. You just have to be really careful not to set up a situation that might set the genii loose from the bottle.

 

I know several people with shitzus who have only one eye because they have lost an eye in a fight. That's if they were lucky and survived the attack.

 

I always kind of wondered about greyhounds. I don't think I would trust one around a cat or really any smaller animal.

[Gideon's girl]

I had a 14 lb terrier/ACD mix that suddenly started a fight with my placid 70 lb GSD, both fixed females. They had lived together peacefully for 7 years before that. Even though my GSD didn't start anything, she was certainly able to finish it. I was NEVER able to allow them to be together after that. When one dog is that much bigger than the other, even one single bite can do a lot of damage.

[Tommy Coyote]

That same thing happened to my boss. He had a great dane and a chi and they were best buddies. Until something happened over the food bowl. That dane just reached down and killed the chi. Just that fast.

[GentleLake]

Again, as I posed recently in another thread, there's the issue of predatory drift. It's most common when there's a significant size difference between dogs (it has also been cited when infants are involved).

 

Here are some articles on the topic:

 

http://www.alldogsgy...redatory-driftq

 

http://becomeaprofes...redatory-drift/

 

http://ezinearticles...-It!&id=7775031

 

http://biscuitacres....predatory-drift

 

I used to help my friend, who's a vet, in her clinic when she was short staffed. I've seen situations like the ones described in the last few posts -- a larger dog attacking a smaller dog, sometimes dogs who have lived together for years. It's not pretty.

[Tommy Coyote]

I used to take care of two dogs that would just occasionally get into an awful fight. One was a springer and was the larger and more aggressive dog. The poor little underdog was an English cocker.

 

I used to watch those dogs interact and that springer would just pick, pick, pick at that smaller dog. Just kind of nasty little, irritating stuff. And that irritation would build and build. And then, seemingly over nothing, that little dog would just lose it and turn and fight. It got pretty serious when that happened and the little dog was hurt several times. Their owners didn't have a clue about dog behavior.

 

It was kind of like a little kid that is bullied over and over and then he just hits a point where he can't take it any more and turns and fights.

 

But I have also seen dogs just take one look at each other and just instantly hate each other. I think those must have to do with dominance. Those dogs just know by looking at each other that the other dog is the competition in the hierarchy.

 

Dog behavior is really complicated. And they communicate with each other in ways that we can't feel or see. An aggressive move of the tail, a curled lip, a flick of an ear. We miss most of it.

[Alchemist]

I've known dogs (terriers) that have killed each other. Literally killed each other. Please don't take dog-dog aggression lightly. To do so is to court tragedy.

[CMP]

I find the Border Collies are most often the guilty party in my pack - if there is a skirmish, which is very rare. The Berners would run a country mile to avoid a confrontation, the hounds could care less about any of that nonsense as long as no one wakes them up or makes their sunny spot shady and the Rotties are more the grip and hold types - they won't fight back generally, will just perform what seems like damage control.

 

It's the Border Collies that cause most of the trouble - running in for little ninja attacks on sleeping dogs, stealing things and running off (being uncatchable helps), knowing where the scatter treats are going to land better than anyone else, being able to open doors and what not ... they don't want to fight - but they sure want to agitate.

 

I have never had one of my dogs kills another one but I have had three cat deaths due to escalating aggression - all killed by Border Collies - from minor disagreements to full on bullying, the progression is somewhat predictable to me now (poor cats) and I am very careful with Border Collie puppies and cats these days.

[Tommy Coyote]

My old dog Ellie loved to fight. If a skirmish got started she would just dive right in.

[HJTRAS]

Ziggy is a female going on 7 months she really is a great dog has potty issues don't want to talk about that "GRR". Her herding instincts are immense and she is not shy about using them.

She understands our other female and allows the discipline. But the males she has no problem being aggressive I think it took her off guard when Dublin reacted and bit . but she has been very cautious since and has Dublin in the corner of her eye at all times. She is very food aggressive to the point we have to feed her in the crate and put her in the crate when we eat.

We have 2 cats I think somewhere in the house. When she spots them she is more curious than anything. I can see the aggressive nature and working on it. It helps having a dominate female dog in the house to try and keep the peace.