Puppy hip question

[CSW]

The ortho vet figured the measurement based on the xrays. He showed me what he measured on the xrays and how he measured them and the math (I am a teacher). He went over each xray with me and then explained the examination he did on her using a model of a canine hip joint. I cannot remember the medical terms he used, but it was during the sedated physical examination that he found the right hip to have some laxity. He did explain there could be a slight difference in DI numbers if we sent the PennHIP xrays in, but he did not think it would answer our question on her situation. It costs more to send them in and while that may be important for data collection, there does not appear to have any benefit to the owner, since Star is to be spayed anyway. I am only waiting until she has grown more as my understanding is it is better to wait. I simply want what is best for her. We would have them sent in if we thought it would yield any more significant info. We took the xrays for diagnostic purposes. I am also still waiting for her ABCA registration # which is asked for when you send them in. If you truely think I should send them in, I can call the clinic after I receive her registration and look into sending them in. The important thing is the xrays did not reveal a reason for the ocassional, shortlived, lameness, so he did not recommend surgery at this time, only a joint supplement and a revisit in about 3 months after she has grown more. She is 23 weeks old now, 32 pounds, slim, participating in puppy classes, active, and going on walks twice a day. I plan to continue obedience with her. I value your opinions which is why I joined this forum and thank-you for the suggestions and shared information.

[Gideon's girl]

Ask the vet about exercises to keep her hip muscles strong.

[Journey]

Submitting the films is *your* choice. However, if you are going to spend the money *just for data* then I'd recommend you submit to Cornell. Otherwise, buy a new toy for her

[Liz P]

Actually, PennHIP requires the submission of all rads taken so that their data is not skewed by pre selection (a problem that plagues OFA).

 

Did the vet take views that included vertical bars used to subluxate the hips?

[CSW]

Liz,

 

If I recall correctly, he did show me an xray with the bars and he said he did subluxate them. He also used 2 medical terms when he showed me what he did during the sedated exam with the hip model that I cannot recall. My impression is that is how he found one hip to have "some laxity," with the exam. I had expected bad news that would require surgery, so I was happy and I remember saying, "Her hips are good" and he replied, "They are fair." Before the xray, he was not sure about the knees. After the sedated exam and xrays he said the knees were fine. He also was careful to say he did not recommend surgery "at this time" and wanted to see her in about 3 months. Remember this is an occasional lameness problem that resolves within minutes, so he has not seen her lame. I am unfamiliar with all the canine Xray terminology. My guidelines to him that day, just before Star was sedated, was I wanted whatever xrays he thought were needed, but I plan to have her spayed, regardless of the results. I mentioned PennHip to him (he did not bring it up) as it had been suggested to me on this forum to take Star to a PennHIP certified Ortho Vet, which he is. On the actual invoice it says 5 xray digital SA/view. It does not say PennHIP. I don't know anything about sending xrays to Cornell. Folks like yourself with a great deal of BC experience must find novices like me laughable. Star is my 2nd Border Collie. Choco was my first and he was neutered at 18 months and lived until one day after his 17th birthday, so I have some BC experience, though limited.

[juliepoudrier]

I'm curious, Liz, how can PennHip require anything? Maybe if you want an official PennHip score you would be required to submit, but that's the only way they could enforce that, and if one isn't planning to breed and is just trying diagnostics to solve a lameness issue and not for breeding purposes, then I don't see why it's incumbent for the owner to pay extra money to send the rads in and have an official PennHip score made. Is there something I'm missing? Clearly whatever "scoring" the ortho vet did is not official, but I imagine that a good ortho vet, especially one who is approved to do radiographs for PennHip measurements, would be able to come up with numbers that are reasonably close.

 

I third checking for Lyme (and other TBDs). The tests are mostly relatively cheap and at least you'll know.

 

J.

[Liz P]

Julie, I am not sure how they enforce the policy. I had the opportunity to get PennHIP certified for free but wasn't able to get the time off work. The notice was too short. I remember there was some sort of agreement that if you took the views, you sent them in. They didn't want any sort of pre screening so that their population numbers were accurate.

[juliepoudrier]

Ah, so the vets doing the rads have to agree to send them in. Interesting. I wonder how good compliance is.

 

J.

[Liz P]

If my memory is correct, when I had it done on my own dogs I also had to sign an agreement that stated I understood the views would be submitted, no matter how good or bad they looked.

 

I allowed some of my dogs to be used for PennHIP training and no agreement was signed, but I also didn't get an official certificate either. I can tell people their scores, but I can't show them the score sheets because they don't belong to me.

[CSW]

There was no form for me to sign. The only thing I signed was the credit card charge:) The understanding prior to the exam was all xrays were for diagnostic purposes. I have ordered Dasuquin with MSM soft chews for Star from Drs Smith and Foster. Vet thought she was at risk for arthritis in one hip and recommended putting her on a joint supplement. Choco had been on Cosequin DS for many years, at least 4 or 5. The Dasuquin with MSM sounds like a better product. The vet did not promote a product but said this was a good one when I asked him about the Dasuquin w/MSM. I did not see anything on an internet search that contradicted giving it to a puppy of her age. She is on Wellness Healthy Puppy Formula, 2 1/2 cups a day (spread over 2 meals) which is less than the package recommends. She would eat more if allowed. In addition, she does get healthy treats for basic obedience training, etc.

[Journey]

Just a side note....I'd get her off the *puppy* food right away.

[CSW]

Star had her check with the ortho vet today. He is pretty sure it is a muscle issue now. Joints are fine as are ligaments and tendons. The interment and short lived lameness had stopped mid October and did not return until the bitter cold in January (-30 wind chills). Of course than she was only out for the bare necessities and in a coat. The lameness then cleared again since it warmed up with one exception, sometimes after finishing a BM it will return. He found that interesting and did check her anal glands and one was full. He did find some muscle soreness upon exam with the Gastrocnemius muscle and her hamstrings were tight again. He has me starting 2 stretches with her for those two areas. In addition, he tested her for all tick borne diseases and blood parasites and she was clean. He also said to continue the controlled exercise (vs playing and running to extreme which she would do if allowed). We will see him again in 6 months. She only weighed in at 32 pounds (at 10 months), so I asked him about her weight and he said she was perfect, exactly what he likes to see. We are continuing our training in Jump Start Obedience, though after this current session she will be ready for some thing more challenging.