Miztiki Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 It's been several years since I've trained a dog and want to get some good books to remind me. The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training is on it's way. It has an excellent basic obedience section (not all of which I agree with) and was a basis for training my GSD Taz. I had excellent results. I'm looking for a few good books on basic obedience, focusing on on-leash and then off-leash training. Boy already knows stuff like sit, down, wait, stay and has made real progress here on the short and long leashes (but forgets when we go elsewhere). Today we began our first "surprise direction change" on the lunge line. MY BACK IS KILLING ME. THANK GOD FOR VICODIN. Anyway, what books do you recommend for him? I did buy a prong collar before I brought him home but have not seen the need to use it yet. He's very smart and biddable and seems to pick up new commands easily. I'm NOT a clicker person. "Good Boy" is as clicky as I will get. I'm not a treat person either, except as an aid when introducing a new command. I expect my dogs to obey me because I said so. Boyden is not very food motivated anyway, so that works out well! (Man, he's a really, really great dog, like he was made to my specifications. I really like him!) Anyway, forgive me if I'm rambling. What books do you recommend for a dog like him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borderco1 Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 I, myself, would not support anything put out by Koehler , I find his training way out of line, and yes there are parts that work but there is a lot that is just straight abuse. But some good training books I actually liked. Barbara Sykes "Understanding Border collies". Not too much of a training book although it does have a lot of training advice. Suzanne Clothier and Patricia B. McConnell I have read and enjoyed, both I consider far better trainers than anything Koehler puts out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 If the last time you started a dog was when Koehler was in vogue, you have a lot of catching up to do! How about finding a local dog club that does obedience classes and checking out the current methods, or just googling for some of the other "positive approach" trainers. Pinch collars and harsh corrections are pretty archaeic, outdated methods. I find that the relationship you have with the dog will determine whether he chooses to follow your commands or blow you off - not brute force and physical punishment. Clicker training (which I do use for obedience purposes) is not the only current method of behavior training - as one of my favorite trainers says, "positive is not permissive!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 typing w/1 hand here, broke glass, koehler has it's place, mickey (BC) -1985- only needed verbal correction, taz (GSD) -1996- needed more, both obeyed perfectly. have not used prong on boyden. he responds well w/soft approach. that is why i want a variety of training methods bcuz no 1 method works 4 every dog. I find that the relationship you have with the dog will determine whether he chooses to follow your commands or blow you offagree 100%! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Certain breeds can handle certain levels of correction (this is a generalization) I can hollar and scream at the german shepherd and it doesn't faze her but if I raise my voice at Bounce he just shuts down and ignores me. If I were to shout at Tex at this point, he'd fall apart and cry like a hurt puppy. Tex marked the house a few times during the first couple of days. I completely ignored it and my family couldn't understand why. I am influenced by an agility teacher I had who would not allow me to say "NO" or anything negative to my dog, no matter how frustrated I got. If she caught me saying "No" she'd take away permission to talk at all. I still suck at agility but I really enjoy it and my yorkieX and I developed a much closer bond. Given Tex's history, I can only precede slowly and work on getting his trust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanna in OR Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Don't Shoot the Dog (Karen Pryor) The Other End of the Leash (Patricia McConnell) Culture Clash (Jean Donaldsen) Not recipe books, but most helpful in my opinion. Deanna in OR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted February 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Thanks for the book recommendations! I've contacted my local library and will look them over so that I know which ones to buy. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Miztiki, whether you came by it naturally or were helped out by books or both, your posts have made it obvious that you are WAY above average as a trainer. I've really admired the training approaches you've taken with Boyden. I think you might find Kevin Behan's Natural Dog Training very interesting. I've mentioned it on the boards before -- it's not a standard training book, but I'd be surprised if you need a standard training book. It's a thought-provoking book. Oh, I forgot to say -- you need a high tolerance for New-Agey language to get through this book (just the way you need a high tolerance for condescension to get through the Jean Donaldson book), but it's worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisK Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Hi, These are two books that I enjoyed reading, made me think about myself and my relationship with my 'pups' but are not exactly 'how to' training books: Suzanne Clothier - Bones Would Rain from the Sky Dr. Stanley Coren - How to Speak Dog Both are in my collection, along with 'Clicking with your Dog'...which I've lent to someone :eek: and must get back! I would agree with Eileen...you seem to have a great relationship with Boyden...and in such a SHORT time...good for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted February 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Gosh... That really means alot to me. In all honestly I've only read one dog book in my life, and that happened to be Koehler's when I got my GSD pup. My old Mickey taught me most of what I know. I've only had three dogs in my life, including Boyden, and they were all very good dogs. I got Mick as a pup 20 years ago and she was PTS nearly 5 years ago. She really was near perfect and I miss her an awful lot. I got Taz the GSD as a pup 9 years ago but she had demodectic mange that was not responding to treatment, so she was PTS at 10 months old. She was so impressive... such potential... Boyden was already a good dog when I got him so I can't take any credit for that. His previous owners, wherever they may be, did a very good job with him. I've been blessed with good dogs. I don't know how I would do with some of the issues others on this board face. I've never had to deal with howling, aggression, obsessions, submissive urination, etc. But thank you for your kind words. I'm near tears! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley-dog Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Your experience with dogs, and intuition and willingness to put yourself in your dogs paws are your most important training tools. As bounce mentioned, different dogs respond differently to various methods and strengths of training. While one method will work OK for almost all dogs, you'll eventually find the method that works BEST for you and your dog. I don't know who the highly popular and trendy trainers are now, but the general situation is the same in horse training. You find out all that you can from books and clinics and different trainers and personal experience, then you use what works for you and your particular horse. Parelli, Lyons, and Roberts are not Gods. They have simply chosen one approach that works well with nearly all horses and compiled it into a 'program'. But you can do the same with your own experience and intuition. Even with dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 You said a mouthful there, Riley! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I love Carol Lea Benjamin's books for outlining approaches to correction and reward for us ordinary mortals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Rebecca, I too love Carol Lea Benjamin's approach. It's so common sense-----and we have come so far from the hang 'em up, jerk 'em around method of dog training to methods much more enlightened in their approach. The days of fear based dog training are, hopefully, gone. Koehler is a thing of the past. Let's leave him and his methods there, in the past, where they belong. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted February 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 I wrote down all of the books and authors you all suggested, made the trip to Houston (no bookstores here!) and got a couple. Their dog section is really crappy! :mad: I got "The Intelligence of Dogs" by Stanley Coren. I also got "Mother Knows Best" by Carol Lea Benjamin. I will keep my eye out for the other books on the internet. If anyone here has a copy they would like to sell, please get in touch with me! Thanks again for the recommendations! p.s. Nevermind, I just bought all but two on Amazon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anne Posted February 14, 2005 Report Share Posted February 14, 2005 You mentioned you are not a treat person except when introducing a new idea. Food treats are only 1 way of praising your dog for a "good job". You can reward them by verbal praise, lovin, their favorite toy, or simply something that the dog loves. Food is also good if your dog starts to backtrack on something he/she has been doing well with. You can start with food and wean more quickly if you don't prefer to use it. I always keep something in my pocket, just incase I need a little more than "me", to get his attention. I have trained many a dog, some with serious attention issues, and I believe the way to a dogs brain, is through his/her stomach. It also helps if they are a bit hungry for training sessions. I do have to say, it seems squeaky toys and tennis balls work better with Phoenix than food, since play is his obsession!! THE NOSE...KNOWS ! You have a lot of good book suggestions, should be great reading. Good luck, JoeAnne Phoenix, Mirra, Sitka & crew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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