When to go to the post

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

At a trial a novice was talking about being at the post to watch the sheep set because the dog can see movement and will know where the sheep are.

 

I said, "That's half right."

 

Yes, let your dog see the sheep spotted but back, in front of the judge/scribe's stock trailer/tent, not at the post.

 

Trials are - you'll know by now - unpredictable: sheep goin' every-which-a-way and, as much as possible you'll want to eliminate variables.

 

Trial hosts will hasten you to the post because they've got a lot of dogs to run. But so long as you're on the field you can ignore that pressure to watch the sheep set.

 

What if you're already at the post and there's a muxup? Your young dog gets to watch chaos and distant hollering. Sometimes, getting reset takes a while. Meantime, you're keyed up and your dog is ready to go. Sure, you can leave the post and go back to stand with the judge & scribe but that's novel too.

 

At Sturgis Nursery 1, my trial partner was first up and dutifully walked out to the post while the announcer announced and stood there for 5 minutes while sheep were set and reset and reset. By the time he sent his dog, he was toast.

 

Donald McCaig

[Smalahundur]

I have always been fascinated by this "setting" of sheep at foreign trials.

It must be (relatively ) comfortable to send your dog out to such a set group.

 

At all the trials I have seen here (and the one I took part in) the handler stands ready with his dog at the post. Then a horse trailer gets driven onto the course, from which your sheep are released, and you better send your dog quickly, before they realize they are in the great outdoors...

 

If I understand you correctly then you can (but are not obliged to) wait until your sheep are stationary and ready before you walk to the post.

[lookback]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

At a trial a novice was talking about being at the post to watch the sheep set because the dog can see movement and will know where the sheep are.

 

That's a coincidence - I posted a blog about this yesterday!

http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/farm-dog-vs-trials-dog/

There's a (not great quality) video clip too if you're interested.

Andy

[lookback]

At Sturgis Nursery 1, my trial partner was first up and dutifully walked out to the post while the announcer announced and stood there for 5 minutes while sheep were set and reset and reset. By the time he sent his dog, he was toast.

 

Surely this depends on the temperament of the dog? Some will be excited to see the sheep being handled at the top of the course, others will be relaxed. (I know which I prefer). Obviously, great care should be taken with the former, but calmer dogs can stand at the post and watch without a problem - especially if this has been part of their training.

 

If the dog's going to get wound-up by watching the sheep being moved at the top while it's at the post, it's going to get just as wound-up by watching from a mere ten or twenty yards further back by the judge's vehicle or tent etc.

 

I advise trainers to give their dog as much experience in new fields, with new sheep and new work situations as possible. This includes learning to watch calmly while someone else works the sheep.

 

In an ideal world, the sheep would walk to the peg and stay there, but this isn't an ideal world, so the best must be made of each situation - and sometimes we get it wrong. (All of us do).

Andy

[Smalahundur]

Thanks for that link Andy, food for thought, (and amusing too).

 

Edit, with "amusing" I was referring to your writing style, not the botched up outrun...

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

Mr. Andy wrote "If the dog's going to get wound-up by watching the sheep being moved at the top while it's at the post, it's going to get just as wound-up by watching from a mere ten or twenty yards further back by the judge's vehicle or tent etc."

 

Nope. Because the novice handler won't get so wound up.

 

Donald McCaig

[lookback]

Edit, with "amusing" I was referring to your writing style, not the botched up outrun...

 

Well, the outrun's amusing now of course, but it wasn't at the time!

[juliepoudrier]

As a person who does a lot of set out, I have to respectfully disagree. Some (but not all by any means) sheep will settle at the post and just stand there. Others have a "life expectancy," say 30 seconds to a minute or so, depending on the sheep, whether the lead sheep has her own agenda, time of day, weather, etc. Nothing is more frustrating to the set out person to have gotten the sheep quietly down the field and on the set out spot, also quietly, only to have to wait, and wait, and wait for a handler to come to the post. Next thing you know, the handler moseys on out, the sheep have had enough and decide to head for the hills, and the set out person (the dog, actually) has to bust ass to get sheep back and settled in place. And once the sheep have gotten antsy, they rarely settle well again. So while the handler sees a mess at the top, the set out person sees sheep who were nicely settled and got tired of waiting. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose.

 

J.

[Laurae]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

Mr. Andy wrote "If the dog's going to get wound-up by watching the sheep being moved at the top while it's at the post, it's going to get just as wound-up by watching from a mere ten or twenty yards further back by the judge's vehicle or tent etc."

 

Nope. Because the novice handler won't get so wound up.

 

Donald McCaig

 

But you were talking about your friend running in the Nursery finals. So probably not quite a novice out at their first trial.

[lookback]

As a person who does a lot of set out, I have to respectfully disagree.

 

Let me make one thing crystal clear - I have every sympathy with those at the top of the field who let the sheep out and attempt to settle them at the peg.

 

I too have done it so many times, and I been on the receiving end of abuse from frustrated competitors (who seem to think we get paid for doing it) when the setting out didn't meet their particular exacting standard.

 

Just as Julie suggests, it can be a thankless, frustrating task to say the least - and that's why in our tutorial on sheepdog trials, I advise the competitor to consider the poor folks at the top of the field before they hang on for ages waiting for "perfection at the peg".

 

Unnecessary delay before sending your dog rarely gets you a better run, it just makes life difficult for everyone - judge, organisers and those letting the sheep out too.

 

In the run mentioned in my blog though, the sheep never did settle for a moment and were trotting purposefully to the left at the time I foolishly sent the dog (to the right). She crossed over and by the time I'd successfully redirected her, they were some distance away.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

With due appreciation for the important work spotters do, the handler is out to get the best run he can and his/her run starts when he sends his dog. I have heard judge's tell dilly-dallyers to "Send your dog!" maybe twice in years of trialing.

 

Sometimes the sheep are very hard to hold and the judge or course director will suggest the dog be sent when they're anywhere near the post. First day at one field at the 08 World Trial the sheep were so flighty they put a second spotter with a dog at the fetch panels because spotters on top couldn't hold them and without the fetch spotter they bolted straight down the course the moment they saw a dog at the post. You sent soon as you could and prayed.

 

At many of our eastern trials, sheep are set on corn and the handler has to decide whether it's best to lift them before they're fully commited to the grain or later when they are oblivious to the lifting sheepdog.

 

So, yes. One's strategy varies by circumstances. As a rule of thumb however, it is better for the novice to watch sheep set in front of the judge's tent, walk briskly to the post with the dog on the side he/she intends to send it, down the dog more or less near the post and slightly behind. Then, send it.

 

Donald McCaig

[juliepoudrier]

Laura,

I think Donald was talking about two different situations: the first was giving advice to a novice handler and the second was an example from a nursery run at Sturgis to back up his belief as to why a novice might not want to go out to the post at the earliest possible moment.

 

Andy,

My response was directed to Donald's opinion and not to your follow up. I should have been more clear. I understood from your description that no one was holding the sheep in place at the set out spot for your run, but if they were then I'm surprised they didn't stop the sheep drifting off (apparently at something more than a walk).

 

To be clear, I DO get paid to set out, although the pay doesn't do much more than cover expenses with maybe a little left over if the host has the space to house me (still it's my choice, and I could choose not to, so take my opinion for exactly what it's worth). That doesn't change the fact that if I am setting the sheep consistently for 10+ hours on multiple days in order for the handlers to have the fairest set out possible, then the handlers should make an effort to get out on the field sooner rather than later. I do recognize that the handler wants to maximize his/her chances of doing well, but my opinion is that waiting often results in sheep that are less settled (the exception being those that are set on feed, though I have seen handlers so slow to get to the post that the sheep finish what's in front of them and then still get antsy). This is just my opinion, of course, and it is colored by the fact that I am the one who is out in it for the entire day(s) vs the 10 or 11 minutes that an open handler might be on the field.

 

No offense intended to anyone--just stating my feeling about set out as someone who does the job on a regular basis.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

Sometimes the person going to the post is delayed by those clearing the field of the previous group. While open dogs are supposed to be able to distinguish between the sheep on top and those heading to the exhaust, I have seen plenty of times sheep thought to be going in the exhaust turn at the last minute and head back onto the field. I prefer to wait until I think the exhaust sheep are going off the field before I head to the post.

 

As someone who has does his fair share of setting sheep I'm not sure which I dislike more; waiting for a handler to send while the sheep have been standing there for a long time or having the dog show up before I get the sheep settled near the set-out point (and then latter to be chided for a poor job setting).

 

 

BTW Julie, thank you for a nice job this weekend. We'll have to dicuss the dead people Nell saw on Saturday.

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Mark,

I can still honestly say that your dogs have some of the nicest outruns of any I ever see! I got photos of some of them, but haven't had a chance to check to see if any came out (using phone and point-and-shoot pocket sized camera).

 

Yeah, sending early can be a problem too, but that really only bothers me in the novice classes because everything is so close that sending an inexperienced dog out when the set out dog/person are still fiddling around just seems a recipe for disaster and not good for the young dog.

 

I always figure that a more experienced dog being sent early is being sent because its handler thinks it won't be able to lift the sheep if they're not moving. It just bothers me a little bit because I feel like I've interfered if I'm still moving the sheep, because that means my dog is still working them too. But then again, it's the handlers choice to send early, so I figure they have their reasons and are willing to risk my inadvertent interference when the dog arrives before it's expected!

 

ETA: While on pet peeves, I'll add exhaust help who aren't able to exhaust sheep in a timely manner. I know there will always be the occasional set that just causes trouble at the exhaust, but at trials where exhaust is taking way too long, the course director probably needs to find a better team to exhaust.

 

J.

[lookback]

Sometimes the person going to the post is delayed by those clearing the field of the previous group.

 

Here in the UK it's accepted you don't walk to the post or even as far as the judge's vehicle (or trailer etc) until the sheep from the previous run are safely in the exhaust pen.

 

It's also understood over here that once you've sent the dog, you've accepted those sheep wherever they are and whatever they're doing at the time. To later complain about them is out of order. If you sent the dog, those sheep are your problem.

 

As far as I'm aware, people don't normally get paid here for setting out sheep. Quite often the course director will ask someone who's already run, or someone who isn't running until much later to do the job - and sometimes, they're employees or friends of the organisers.

Andy

[lookback]

While on pet peeves, I'll add exhaust help who aren't able to exhaust sheep in a timely manner. I know there will always be the occasional set that just causes trouble at the exhaust, but at trials where exhaust is taking way too long, the course director probably needs to find a better team to exhaust.

 

Wow! Over here in all but national and international trials each competitor is responsible for taking their own bunch of sheep off the field after their run. Occasionally, the course director will ask someone to assist and sometimes someone volunteers to do it - to give their young dog experience of working in a new place with new people around etc.

Andy

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Mr. Andy,

 

In the States, at almost every open trial big and little. one exhausts the following handler's sheep. For our novice classes, exhaust dogs do the job. It's informal - at last weekend's trial my 2 year old open dog had no brains left when he came off the course so I asked the handler-before-me to exhaust the handler-after-me's sheep as well as mine.

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

Andy,

 

We frequently run with hot temps and high humidity (by your standards). We find it better for the dogs to exhaust the next run after the dog has had a chance to cool off.

 

Last Saturday we ran at 91F (32.7C) and 71% RH; we've run under hotter conditions like our 2010 National Finals where the temps were close to 100F (37C).

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

Andy,

Here in the U.S. sometimes set out is paid and sometimes not. Some hosts feel that paid set out provides consistency for the handlers who have traveled long distances and incurred associated expenses to do so; that is, they feel it's the fairest way to run it for the handlers.

 

Others use volunteers because it saves on expenses. There are bound to be inconsistencies from handler to handler, and sometimes it's difficult to find enough good volunteers, but the handlers competing know this going in, usually, and if the volunteers are good they shouldn't have any real effect on the outcome of the trial.

 

The other advantage to paid set out is that we are there for the whole trial, no matter what the weather (e.g., like what Mark described for the trial this past weekend), how the sheep are behaving, or how long the drive is to get home. Those are all factors that can affect the availability of volunteers.

 

And then there's the whole question of whether the volunteer gains an advantage by setting sheep if they have to use a dog they will run later that day.

 

Pretty much, though, the trial host just uses what works best for their trial situation.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

As someone who also gets paid to do setout (on the opposite coast from Julie), I will add that I have two pet peeves: one is the handler dawdling before sending the dog for all the reasons Julie mentioned, and the second is the handler sending the dog too soon (again, for the same reason Julie mentions). But out here, because we are running so many dogs in a day, the course director/trial host will usually ask me to be bringing the next set out well before the current set is off field. Most often, the handler is still at the pen when I am asked to start bringing the next set out. So more often than not, the sheep are set or are almost there when the next handler approaches the post. It's pretty easy to tell if they are set--if I am still moving and my dog is engaging the sheep, they are not yet set. If I am standing off to the side with my dog lying down, they are ready to go. As for people sending too soon--as soon as I see the dog is sent, I back off and no longer try to get the sheep to the correct spot. I will keep them from completely leaving the field, but will not otherwise keep messing with them. If the handler wants them early, they can have them--wherever they may end up. For exhaust here, we usually ask the handler to remain at the exhaust pen to assist exhausting the following run's sheep.

A

[Smalahundur]

Here in Iceland trialing does not have the professional level it has in the US or UK. That also has its charm.

Nobody gets paid, running in a trial is usually free, and when you win the "National" you get a trophy and bag of dog food.

[juliepoudrier]

Same here Anna. Unless I have a good reason NOT to bring the next set out, I generally am holding the next set a little way away from the set out spot so I can move them into position while the previous set is being exhausted, so as not to waste any time. As with trials out west, this is usually necessary in order to get through all the runs, which is another reason why dawdling handlers irk me, since the time spent taking one's time getting to the post is likely time I will be asked to make up later....

 

J.

[Alchemist]

I was recently chatting with another novice handler (perhaps the same one Mr. McCaig mentions? it's not that big a world!), who is being mentored by someone with impeccable credentials. She told me that her mentor had recommended that she send her dog while the sheep were still being taken to the setout spot by the setout person/dog. The explanation she provided me was that her dog would spot the sheep more easily if they were still moving.

 

I thought it was different from the advice I'd been given, so I checked with my mentor. She told me that (1) it was rude to keep the setout crew waiting (and made their jobs a lot more difficult, confirming what Julie and others have already stated); (2) it could be counterproductive to send your dog too early - once you send your dog, even if the sheep bolt at that moment, you have accepted that packet of sheep, and you can't count on being allowed a re-run.

 

Instead she recommended that as soon as I checked in with the judge and the scribe, and saw that the setout person was moving sheep into position, I immediately proceed to the post. If I walked along the projection of the fetch line, it'd give the dog a clue as to where to expect the sheep. Send the dog the instant the sheep appear settled, and cross your fingers (and trust your dog!).

 

The other thing she recommended was that handlers should approach the judge as soon as the sheep were close to the exhaust area - don't wait for the prior handler to leave the field! The corollary to that is, yes, it's nice to give your dog a well-deserved pat - but it's more considerate for everyone else to leave the field as soon as your run is completed.

 

 

At a trial a novice was talking about being at the post to watch the sheep set because the dog can see movement and will know where the sheep are.

[TEC]

Instead she recommended that as soon as I checked in with the judge and the scribe, and saw that the setout person was moving sheep into position, I immediately proceed to the post. If I walked along the projection of the fetch line, it'd give the dog a clue as to where to expect the sheep. Send the dog the instant the sheep appear settled, and cross your fingers (and trust your dog!) (Emphasis added)

 

Excellent advice, particularly in bold above. Dogs' eyesight is fuzzy at distances, but they spot motion very well. Allowing the dog to view movement to set-out location, as well as walking a few steps on extension of the fetch line, dog alongside, provide valuable information.

 

I once waited patiently at the post for about three minutes (seemed like ten to me), while portions of the packet (which was to be placed just a few feet from the set-out pen) wandered in and out the pen's open gate. More than once the proper number of sheep appeared. I was ready to send Josie just as soon as the gate was closed, which did eventually happen after numerous additional ticks of the clock. I sat on the ground near the post, and petted my dog to calm her. As I recall Josie's outrun and lift were surprisingly good for any circumstances. I never did have visual contact with a set-out person or dog -- just sheep wandering out and back through the gate. To this day I wonder what happened, but did not look into it or ask any questions.

 

A nice lady handler at a Vancouver Island SDT I ran in began to wrap her sheep at the post, at which point they promptly headed for the open exhaust pen gate located very close, just a little to the right of the judge's tent. Other handlers had been given an opportunity to pull errant sheep away from that pen. She asked for and was not given a re-run. Tears.

 

Those were anomalies, for sure. If there is a common theme, possibly it's the gates. Exhaust and set-out pens usually have gates, and those who have jobs at those locations can save a lot of heartache by simply keeping a close eye on them. Julie, perhaps you could come to the NW and give a seminar/clinic. I have seen many excellent set-outs and exhausts, and respect the work that goes into them. -- TEC

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

I was taught, many years ago, to walk directly toward intended sheep, no matter how far away, to cue the dog. I will continue to do this and will teach others to do so, but I'm not at all sure it's a strong cue.

 

Since June was so mannerly under the tent, I used to bring her out early until I realied that while she was schmoozing, she was determining where the sheep were (without my help). She gathered several white barns, a setout person's white pickup truck and once, a group of children in a nearby playground playing volleyball. My walk at 'em cue? Forget it.

 

At Steve Wetmore's wonderful Vermont trial, sheep are spotted invisibly on a forested hill across a creek with a meadow perpendicular to the fetch line on the left. Fly ignored the previous fetch and all my cues to bolt perpendicular down that meadow because IT LOOKED LIKE THE TRIAL COURSE SHE WAS USED TO.

 

Maybe I ought to lay out a trail of bread crumbs the night before.

 

Donald McCaig