Click, Click, Click ... Claaaaaaaaaaaaack.

[Root Beer]

I've been transitioning from a clicker to a mouth click. I seem to always have the mouth with me It's as much of a job to learn to use the mouth click as the clicker - it's actually a very precise movement, with exacting placement of tongue, lips, and jaws. And I'm still automatically trying to press the clicker, even though it's not in my hands.

 

I do both. I started using the tongue click when I started working with Tessa. The clicker was overwhelming for her at first, so I started with a tongue click instead.

 

I will never forget the day I clicked a clicker and she understood it. We had been working with the tongue click for a couple of months. I tried the clicker again and I could see in her eyes that she got it. It was like we suddenly spoke the same language and were were mutually delighted.

 

I still use the tongue click if I don't have a clicker on me, or if I am working in an environment where a clicker would be inappropriate (like off on the sidelines at a competition - I can click my tongue just enough so Tessa can hear it but nobody else can). But I have found that she is a lot more motivated by the actual click, so if I am working on something that is challenging for her, I set things up so I can use the clicker.

 

But the tongue click definitely works well when we need it.

[Sekah]

I barely dig my clickers out of the bottom of my dog bags these days. Most of what I do with my dogs these days allows a verbal marker to suffice. Though, I remember a time a few years ago when I couldn't find a clicker and wanted to work on Cohen's handstand. "No problem", I thought to myself, "I'll just use 'yes' instead."

 

After about two miserable, awkward minutes I couldn't take it anymore. I stopped and went digging around my apartment for a clicker. I found one, breathed a sigh of relief and got back to making actual progress.

 

 

The speed and precision of a clicker really can't be matched by verbal markers. Most of the time that precision isn't really required, but it certainly helps.

[alligande]

I am another that does not use a clicker, but uses a verbal marker instead (I use yes) as others have said it is not as accurate but I always have it with me and I am really not looking for precision behavior, if I was training freestyle like Kristine then I would be using one, but for the few silly pet tricks I teach voice works.

The most important thing to remember is the clicker is just marking the behavior it is not the reward, you can click and pet, you and click and praise, obviously most use food as it is quick and the meaning is very clear to the dog and you can do lots of fast repetitions. The marker is just letting the dog know that it is doing something right and a reward is coming.

[rushdoggie]

When I do use a clicker vs a verbal marker, this type and set up is my choice. The wrist coil keeps the clicker there so I don't worry I will drop it (and can in fact just let go if I need to) and the clicker with the external button means I can press it against the heel of my hand to click vs. having to put my finger inside the box. I have also set it on the carpet and used my bare toes to click when I wanted two hands.

 

Its what I set my pet dog students up with and it seems to work well for most people.

 

[mum24dog]

Just me but I prefer a clicker nestled in my palm without a wrist band. It just becomes an extension of my hand.

 

I've always just used a standard box clicker but as I'm getting a pup this time I'm going to try the quieter I-click which seems to be what you are using.

[Lizabeth]

I have found that the clicker is really nice to use when were on walks, I have it figured out how to hold the clicker and the leash looped around my wrist, I have been using the clicker as a positive reinforcement when shes walking so good, which keeps her doing so with out the need for that cookie. She seems to get a sense of self confidence, I tell you some times when i tell her how good shes doing she will turn her head look at me wanting to hear that click! So I think she kinda likes it too.

 

I saw some vids on Youtube about a clicker trained BC named Nana, that dog is something else!

[CMP]

Obviously you don't *need* it and many people train fine without it (Chaser, the dog that knows 1000 words comes to mind).

This got me thinking.

 

(Always a potential sleepfest, I know)

 

Chaser's bag of tricks are not physical. Yes, she does some physical things, but her thing is brain games. That requires a sort of base understanding and freestyle communication that probably would not work with a clicker.

 

Extreme rescue dogs who have to be okay with helicopter drops and weird stuff like that, good alone for extended periods in mountain areas, etc. cannot be trained by any rote method. They cannot be conditioned to performance, much like a sheepdog. They need to be able to make decisions and choices and training is undertaken with this independence in mind.

 

Chaser's training was similar except it was mental.

 

Hence comes the distinction between a biddable dog and an obedient one. A clicker fosters obedience where methods generally used by working dog trainers do not. My rescue dogs do the basic stuff, of course, but they cannot be counted upon to partake in any tricks or games and won't always go the route you tell them to if they sense a better one - but they do get where you told them to go.

 

Interesting.

 

So, I suppose the synopsis of this very unscientific conclusion is that training with a clicker is an excellent method for basic obedience in all dogs with all purposes and for certain types of performance goals (sports) but may not be suitable for other goals (rescue, herding, police).

 

Makes sense.

[rushdoggie]

I am not sure what you mean here by "brain games," but a clicker encourages a dog to think, to offer to problem solve (because there's no downside to guessing other than no click). I'm not sure what your "brain games" are or why they would be something you can't communicate with a clicker.

Extreme rescue dogs who have to be okay with helicopter drops and weird stuff like that, good alone for extended periods in mountain areas, etc. cannot be trained by any rote method. They cannot be conditioned to performance, much like a sheepdog. They need to be able to make decisions and choices and training is undertaken with this independence in mind.

Chaser's training was similar except it was mental.

Hence comes the distinction between a biddable dog and an obedient one. A clicker fosters obedience

 

No, a clicker is a marker for communication purposes. It does not foster obedience any more or less than any other training method per se. You wouldn't use it to train a dog to tolerate a helicopter drop because thats not really a training thing, is it? But you could certainly use it to teach a dog to load into a helicopter or crate or something that you were training.

 

So, I suppose the synopsis of this very unscientific conclusion is that training with a clicker is an excellent method for basic obedience in all dogs with all purposes and for certain types of performance goals (sports) but may not be suitable for other goals (rescue, herding,

 

I would not agree with that...yes on most aspects of herding (because the sheep add a complexity to the equation that would make marking certain things a challenge to simply mark with a click because I can't see things like the dogs do). But not on the rest.

[alligande]

Just something to add to your thoughts clicker training does not work well for agility beyond the basics because it is to accurate, when a dog takes a jump are you rewarding the take off, clearing the bar, the landing, the turn, etc I think you get the point... So agility trainers use toys and play as rewards so the dog knows it did an all-around good job, if you clicked and treated which part of the complex procedure are you rewarding.

[Root Beer]

No, a clicker is a marker for communication purposes. It does not foster obedience any more or less than any other training method per se.

 

Yes - this!!

 

I think I've mentioned this before, but it always stuck with me. I was having trouble one evening at Agility executing a piece of handling at exactly the right time. I was always either too early or too late and my dog wasn't getting the sequence.

 

I finally got fed up with the instructor saying "late" at me, so I stopped, handed her a clicker, and told her to click at exactly the second where I should execute the handling.

 

She did that one time and after that I got it right every time I tried.

 

Granted, that's not quite how we typically use it with dogs, but it served the same purpose. The click was able to communicate something to me clearly, precisely, and at the exact second that I needed the information.

 

That wouldn't foster obedience. I could still choose to handle later if I thought the instructor was completely wrong. I could choose another way to handle the sequence altogether. But hearing the click in the right place gave me the info I needed to get it right if I so chose (which I did!).

 

If I use a clicker to train a dog to sit, that doesn't make the dog obedient. It makes him skilled. Obedience comes with internal motivation and fluency, which is a heck of a lot easier to find with a biddable dog!!

[gcv-border]

 

 

So, I suppose the synopsis of this very unscientific conclusion is that training with a clicker is an excellent method for basic obedience in all dogs with all purposes and for certain types of performance goals (sports) but may not be suitable for other goals (rescue, herding, police).

 

Makes sense.

IMHO, for the most part, I agree with the above, but I still wouldn't throw out the clicker for teaching certain skills in the rescue, herding and police dogs. As I said in post #12, the clicker is just another tool in the toolbox - and just because it hasn't been traditionally used for the three purposes cited above, doesn't mean that one should not consider it.

 

I know a woman who has been involved in SAR for over 30 years. She has tracked with bloodhounds, has owned other dog breeds (BC mix, Viszla, others?) which she has trained for tracking, air scenting, cadaver work, historical remains detection, invasive weed detection and ??? She has been both nationally and internationally certified. Is also an evaluator for certifying SAR dogs, and has trained, and continues to train, several local SAR teams in air scent, cadaver work, urban search, water search. And hmmm, I am sure there are other accomplishments.

 

Does she use a clicker? Not usually, but at times she has used one, and will also instruct her students how to use one when necessary. She is very inventive in her training methods.

[Maralynn]

This got me thinking.

 

(Always a potential sleepfest, I know)

 

Chaser's bag of tricks are not physical. Yes, she does some physical things, but her thing is brain games. That requires a sort of base understanding and freestyle communication that probably would not work with a clicker.

 

Extreme rescue dogs who have to be okay with helicopter drops and weird stuff like that, good alone for extended periods in mountain areas, etc. cannot be trained by any rote method. They cannot be conditioned to performance, much like a sheepdog. They need to be able to make decisions and choices and training is undertaken with this independence in mind.

 

Chaser's training was similar except it was mental.

 

Hence comes the distinction between a biddable dog and an obedient one. A clicker fosters obedience where methods generally used by working dog trainers do not. My rescue dogs do the basic stuff, of course, but they cannot be counted upon to partake in any tricks or games and won't always go the route you tell them to if they sense a better one - but they do get where you told them to go.

 

Interesting.

 

So, I suppose the synopsis of this very unscientific conclusion is that training with a clicker is an excellent method for basic obedience in all dogs with all purposes and for certain types of performance goals (sports) but may not be suitable for other goals (rescue, herding, police).

 

Makes sense.

IMO, A clicker fosters independence, confidence and a dog who is actively a part of it's own training, not mechanically obedient. It's confident and comfortable trying new things. As far as not training a SAR dog with a clicker, well, I can reiterate that I'm using a clicker with my SAR prospect pup. But it's not just me - my team mate who is training his 6th FEMA disaster SAR dog started his pup out with a clicker, too.

[Maralynn]

I will add that not everything is taught using a clicker (I'm using it about 50% of the time) but it is certainly a tool that I'm using

[CMP]

This is the best thread.

 

I love it when smart people disagree politely Best learning environment that exists.

 

I think we mostly all use "clickers" - some of us just use the mechanical kind, others use the verbal kind.

 

In that regard, yes, they act like any other tool.

 

And in all things where rote learning is acceptable the clicker works as well as any other kind of marker. MARKERS are not used so much in advanced "vocational" training because you can't mark a decision or the application of an instinct/sense in the same way. Much like they can't be used, as noted, in advanced agility training.

 

I think that will be the conclusion I take away.

 

Great discussion.

[Maralynn]

I certainly agree that you don't teach instinct with a marker system. You're tapping a dog's innate skills. With something like stockwork, you have a whole different communication system. Lots of pressure and release, correction timing, molding the instincts in a managed setting while they learn.

 

But markers can be used to shape HOW a dog uses it's instincts in some situations.

 

Often times with detection work it's simply rewarding at the source so in the dog's mind scent = reward so there isn't really a need for marking anything. I've seen several different methods of doing this and the methods are tweaked according to the end desire. But sometimes, like with my team mates puppy that is in training for cadaver disaster work, markers are used to tell condition the pup from the get go that the source will equal the reward. It's a simple way of telling the dog that the source=reward if you don't have a more complex set up or train on your own at times. Pup naturally walks over to cadaver source, gets a click for it, starts to connect the dots that "this is what I'm rewarded for finding". You can then use the clicker to shape the indication at the source.

 

 

For me, along with training the search portion of SAR, I have some basic obedience, agility, and directional training that my dog needs to be certified with my team. I use the clicker quite a bit with that. For the search and alert portions I use source = reward (the "victim" has the toy/food) and let the dog figure the puzzle out using their own abilities. But I will sometimes incorporate marker words (that they already have the foundation for) if I think my dog needs a helping hand in training.

[Stanzi_and_Molly]

My new BC male is noise sensitive. I have two clickers. He seems to really hate the noise, even if cheese is associated with the sound. Should I continue trying the clicker?

[alligande]

My new BC male is noise sensitive. I have two clickers. He seems to really hate the noise, even if cheese is associated with the sound. Should I continue trying the clicker?

This is why I don't use a clicker, my late Brody came to me hating all click sounds, clickers, pens, voice, the lot, he would run and hide at the first click. A number of people on this board suggested I continue to counter condition him to the sound, but we had so much to work on in terms of relationship building that it did not seem that important an issue compared to others, so I moved onto using a "yes" worked for us. The only issue we had was certain classes could be to much for him with the clicks going on, so I learned to be careful about what seminars I took him to.

[mum24dog]

I have found that the clicker is really nice to use when were on walks, I have it figured out how to hold the clicker and the leash looped around my wrist, I have been using the clicker as a positive reinforcement when shes walking so good, which keeps her doing so with out the need for that cookie. She seems to get a sense of self confidence, I tell you some times when i tell her how good shes doing she will turn her head look at me wanting to hear that click! So I think she kinda likes it too.

 

I saw some vids on Youtube about a clicker trained BC named Nana, that dog is something else!

 

 

If I understand you correctly, you are clicking without treating. By doing so you are throwing away the power of the clicker.

 

The clicker is not a reward, it is a signal that a reward is to follow. If no reward follows then the clicker loses its meaning.

 

Seek out a good clicker trainer to show you and explain how to get the best results.

[Root Beer]

My new BC male is noise sensitive. I have two clickers. He seems to really hate the noise, even if cheese is associated with the sound. Should I continue trying the clicker?

 

My choice would be to do so, but that is because I know firsthand the potential benefits of seeing it through.

 

However, I would move very slowly - starting with a tongue click and working with that for a very long time, moving to the softest i clicker I could find only when it is clear that the dog loves working with the tongue click, and gradually transitioning to a clicker that is not as soft. I may never progress to a box clicker - it is not technically necessary.

 

I would also start with something more potent than cheese.

 

Personally I would only choose to abandon the clicker if a slow desensitization process, using high value treats, failed in the long run.

[GentleLake]

What Mum24dog says is correct. The clicker without a reward is meaningless to the dog, and to a noise sensitive dog could be torture.

 

You have to pair the clicker to a reward. Food is what's used most often, but it doesn't have to be that if the dog isn't food motivated. The dog first has to be taught what the clicker means.

 

This is why I suggested in another thread that you seek out a good positive reinforcement trainer so that you can learn the proper techniques.

 

I also agree with Root Beer that you may want to try a quieter marker such as Yes! or a soft tongue click for this dog at first so you're not stressing him with a sound he's afraid of. I once had a dog who was terrified of clickers, and I had to use another marker . . . but I charged the verbal marker like people charge clickers first, meaning that I just sat with her and said Yes! and gave her a very tasty treat over and over again until she knew that my saying Yes! meant she was going to get a treat. Once the dog knows that, you mark the desired behavior and then can follow up with the treat a moment later if it's not already ready in your hand.

 

Good luck.

[mum24dog]

I would dispute in part the idea that clicker training can't be used in agility. In the thread on contacts in the Obedience etc section Diana A demonstrates very clearly how it can work very well for specific behaviours like contacts.

 

I find a clicker invaluable for clearing up those moments of confusion when the dog thinks it knows best.

 

But not for everything, I agree. I use it much less in agility than in obedience training.

[Root Beer]

I would dispute that, as well. Although, after the initial introduction to the equipment and handling on the flat, I use the clicker less in Agility than I do in Freestyle (where I use it very, very heavily), I do use it for some advanced level skills. Obstacle recognition and discrimination, contacts, back sides . . .

 

If my dog is stuck on a concept, chances are I will incorporate a clicker to help clarify it.

 

But because obstacle performance is always the same (we never have the dog back up the dogwalk, circle weave poles, duck under jumps, etc.), I use the clicker much, much less than I do in other sports. If I am introducing or tweaking an advanced skill, though, I may well use a clicker for a time.

[Laurelin]

I still use the tongue click if I don't have a clicker on me, or if I am working in an environment where a clicker would be inappropriate (like off on the sidelines at a competition - I can click my tongue just enough so Tessa can hear it but nobody else can). But I have found that she is a lot more motivated by the actual click, so if I am working on something that is challenging for her, I set things up so I can use the clicker.

 

But the tongue click definitely works well when we need it.

 

I have noticed that with my dogs. If something in particular is stumping us and the dogs are losing motivation the sure-fire way to get the dog more interested in the training is to pull out the clicker. Just doing that alone can make the dog go from a ho-hum attitude about training to really wanting to work.

 

It is such a simple thing but it makes a lot of difference. My dogs really understand the clicker game and once the dog does I think it makes things so much easier.

[Root Beer]

Sometimes the same thing works when Dean is going off into stressy-land. If I get out the clicker and start to click/treat correct responses (which can be as simple as voluntary orienting to initially get him back), his brain snaps back to normal. Doesn't work if he's too close to (or over) threshold, but if I catch it when he first starts to go there, it works beautifully. Just asking for behaviors and feeding him doesn't work as well. Toys can, but toys will jolly him out of it only until they go away. The clicker can really move him past his concerns.

[Laurelin]

How I start clickers is by shaping with an object generally. Generally I sit down with treats and clicker and toys in hand and pull out an object and put it in front of the dog. Then I click for any interaction the dog has with the object. I generally don't load the clicker like a lot of people do. I find most dogs will go to sniff the object and they pick up really fast what the idea of the game is. I can teach a target to the object or look at the object very fast then branch off from there.

 

We use clickers in agility. Even now after a couple years of training. Not on every run but if the dogs are having problems. With a clicker savvy dog it can really clear up the confusion and as I said before it also seems to bring up her motivation level. I do interchange 'yes' with the click but the click is still more rewarding to her.

 

I started using the clicker when I got my older papillon. Prior to her I had taught quite a few tricks and basic manners to my dogs. But she was the first dog I really did anything more specific with. She knows a lot more tricks than my past dogs have and also obviously does agility. It's been a great tool to have. We were obviously doing ok without the clicker but it brings precision and better communication in my opinion.