Training Progress feedback requested

[ourwully]

Juno is 10 months now and her training is going well (I think) but there are still times when she loses focus and struggles. Meeting people/dogs and recalls with distractions are still issues. Should she be over these issues by 10 months or should I just keep on with the training.

 

With meeting people and dogs on our walks she lunges on the leash because she is so eager to greet them (over friendly). Usually, I just restrain her until they pass or I move her away from the person. With people I know I will have them wait until she calms but this is only partially successful because when I do let her go to see them she just gets excited again. Eventually she calms down but this takes time. No matter what I say she ignores me.

 

With recalls she is near perfect in our yard but if we are out of the yard and there is a distraction she ignores me unless I go the other way to leave and then she will come after me. She doesn't like to lose sight of me but she doesn't come directly to me either. Today in a closed tennis court I had her on a long line and her recalls weren't great. When I let her free in the court without the line, however, she came to me everytime even though the distances were often quite long.

 

My request for feedback is just to give me an idea if our progress is in the normal range. With time and maturity will Juno's focus improve or do you think we are lagging in this area? I am a first time BC owner so I am not really sure of the milestones.

 

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks

Bill

[Maxi]

No doubt everyone has their own opinions and expectations when training a dog.

 

For me, dog training is not a race with milestones and goals to be met by a specific time. it is a matter of time and calm, consistent patience and persistence and tryng not to get annoyed! I think what you describe is pretty normal.. Like human kids, every dog (and definitely every BC) is different. There may be a few absolute stars who seem to just 'get it ' first time but I don't think I've ever met one. Most pups are not like this. They will pick up some aspects of training very quickly and then struggle with something else. Sometimes it is a matter of finding another way of approaching the issue. A method that suits another dog and handler may not suit Juno or you.

 

Often it just is a matter of time until the dog matures sufficiently to understand what you are asking. However you also need to remember that at 10 months, Juno will be going though that adolescent stage, where she may well test you to the limit as she tries to determine what boundaries are acceptable and what she is allowed to get away with. You need to decide what are acceptable behaviours and which are not. You also need to try to ensure that your whole family are consistent in what you allow.

 

With regard to over- friendly greetings and not listening to a recall when there are distractions, these are both very common problems. Again, you will no doubt get lots of different advice. My suggestion, is try to see it from Juno's perspective. She is getting a 'reward' from both of these behaviours.

 

For Lead pulling to greet strangers then the act of continually pulling on the lead while standing behind her is actually exciting and encouraging her to tug more! There are several things you could attempt. For example stand in front of her to get her attention and physically block her from moving forward while giving a firm 'No'. Alternatively, just sit in the park with Juno at your side on a loose line. talk softly to her as people and other dogs go by quietly praising good calm behaviour and promptly correcting any enthusiastic attempt to greet others. Once she understands that calmness around others are praised/rewarded, then try to walk her on a loose lead around others and as soon as you see someone approaching start talking to Juno. Give a short sharp correction if she starts to pull on the lead and again calmly praise her when she is being good.

 

Similarly, with distractions, try to preempt these and get her focused on you before the 'distraction' wins out. However, you actually have the answer of how to get her back because you say when you turn and walk away, she follows. This is good, use it to your advantage.

 

Good luck and enjoy your training..however frustrating it can sometimes seem.

[Maxi]

I should have added when recalling your dog, you need to think carefully about what your body language and tone of voice are actually saying to her.

 

Without seeing you with your dog, it is impossible to say, but you may be inadvertently putting pressure on her by your stance, gestures and/or tone of voice. If your body language is very stiff, or you are gesticulating too much or your voice sounds angry, you could be making her feel uncomfortable. so she stays at a distance to avoid this pressure - which is also more fun because of the initial 'distraction'.

 

By turning to the side, lowering your eyes slightly, relaxing your shoulders and encouraging rather than demanding she come, you will release this pressure and she will feel comfortable about returning to your side.This may be another reason why Juno is more keen to come to you when you turn and walk away (other than the one you suggest).

 

Like much of dog training, it is a matter of getting your timing correct. When Juno starts to get distracted, you need to apply pressure. As soon as she starts to do what you want ( initially this may just be a quick glance or a couple of paces towards you), you need to release pressure on her.

[Bordercentrics]

Just keep on working at the training. It is her age. Results vary as far as age goes. My Ruby was 3 before I had her complete attention. We adopted her from a shelter when she was about a year, so it was two years of constant and consistent training, and one day I had her attention and she is my best trained dog to this day.

 

As far as getting a different behavior in certain situations, you not only have to stop the behavior you don't like, you also have to teach her what you DO like. Instead of controlling her with the leash and forcing her to stay in place with pressure, have you tried immediately asking for sit, downs, etc. as soon as you seen someone coming? That will keep her mind on something else that she should do. Follow with profuse praise, treats, whatever she responds to. You could also turn away when you see something or someone she will want to go to. Keep her either moving or thinking in those circumstances when she might succumb to excited distraction.

 

I have never had a dog whose recall was 100% at the age of 10 months. She is an adolescent, and you know what that means! I think most dogs are better off lead in certain circumstance because they can't rely on the leash/line to tell where you are and what you are doing. They have to pay attention to keep track of you.

 

For both your problems, Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed, specifically the Look at That exercise, would probably help.

 

Kathy Robbins

[ourwully]

Thanks Maxi and Bordercentric for the feedback and advice. As a beginner you always wonder if you are doing things right. Advice from long time owners is really invaluable because you are in a bit of a vacuum otherwise. A few months ago my

wife saw a 3 month old border collie in town who was perfectly behaved yet my Juno wouldn't even walk well on the leash at that time. It really made me wonder if I was on the right track.

 

I am using the Look at that Exercise quite a bit, especially for cars and bicycles but I will expand its use. I have read Leslie's book twice now and keep finding useful things in it. I am trying to generalize a lot of her stuff so I don't have to remember every specific thing.Your comments, Maxi, about the recall really make sense when I think about it. When she wasn't under pressure, her recall was much better. I will have to really pay attention to my body language.

 

Thanks again

I feel a lot better now and I have some new approches to try as well.

Bill

[Maxi]

 

As far as getting a different behavior in certain situations, you not only have to stop the behavior you don't like, you also have to teach her what you DO like. Instead of controlling her with the leash and forcing her to stay in place with pressure,

Just for the record, I don't apply pressure when my dog is doing what I want ..or starting to do what I want. I RELEASE IT by relaxing my body language, everting my eyes and using soothing, calm tones. If my dog is on the leash. I also make sure that this is loose. All these actions makes a dog feel comfortable and so they act as a powerful and highly effective reward.

 

I only apply pressure with my body language when my dog is doing the wrong thing.. I try to vary the amount of pressure I use depending on the situation and temperament and age of each dog. I also start very mildlly with just a warning glance and a softly growled 'hey'. This gives my dog an option to consider his actions and choose for himself what he wants to do. I only increase the pressure by staring and leaning and then moving into my dog's personal space if he doesn't respond to my initial warning.

 

I personally find that many novice handlers when trying to train a dog do not consider what their body language - or even the way that they just look at him - is actually saying.. The owner's frustration at the dog not returning will turn to annoyance and the dog will pick up this, so it's not surprising he refuses to respond to the recall.

[CMP]

Maybe my dogs are slower, but they get a 90-95% recall pretty quickly, usually by 4 months or so - but it takes nearly 1.5 years for them to graduate to 99.9% - I have yet to meet the dog who is 100%, 100% of the time, to be truthful.

 

Maxi gives good advice, I think: recalls MUST always be positive or the dog will avoid/delay. it can be hard, I know - it takes a lot of willpower to overcome frustration or, worse, disappointment or anger, and remove it from your voice. Sometimes I have to take a Gandalfian pause and remind myself that even though I have a right to be cranky (say she has gone over the "home" line despite being told to stay home which I KNOW she understands) I will make it exponentially worse if I try and recall her with any of that in my voice. Then I will have two failures to contend with ...

 

I train my puppies to deal with people and strangers from the ground, usually. I tend to squat or sit beside them and act like a human harness, talking gently the whole while, not allowing any forward lunging or motion. I find otherwise I have to pull and yank and I dislike that immensely. I train them to deal with vehicles, other dogs, children and adults the same way. I get down on their level and restrain them gently, explaining (by way of voice modulation, touch and praise/correction) the situation. I usually get a friend to help with "manners while meeting people" training.

 

Sounds to me like Juno is doing just fine. Good luck!

[ourwully]

Thanks for the additional advice. It is a lot to soak in but attention to body language/attitude is clearly very important. This morning I went back to the tennis court and instead of having Juno wait I just set her free and then called her randomly. She returned immediately every single time! It was very satisfying so I say thanks again for the advice re body language. Sadly, her walk to and from the court was poor. My wife came with me and I think the poor walking was again a result of body language/attitude. I think I was feeling the pressure from my wife to have Juno walk well and when she didn't my attitude went downhill along with Juno's walking. I think I must be the slow learner because I got the body language for the recall and then completely ignored it on the walk. I learned another thing today that I should have known. I have found that separating loose leash walking from heeling has been very effective for me. Today her walking was poor but her heeling was good. The other day her waiting was poor so when I combined it with recall they were both poor. In general, I will have to remind myself to separate training goals when combined ones aren't working. It is a lot to remember but very satisfying when things work out. Already Juno is such an amazing dog with a great disposition and she is getting better every day.

Thanks again

Bill

[ourwully]

Thanks CMP for the advice on working from the ground. I will definitely do this. I was also wondering if you could comment on my loose leash training. So far it has gone reasonably well. I praise her and treat her a lot if she is walking well but when she isn't I give the leash a short tug and say slow down or walk nice. Usually this works but if she is just sniffing out of control like today, I turn and walk the other way. She always walks perfectly the other way then I turn and keep going. Thinking about body language/attitude I think my body language suffers when I get into this cycle of forward, backward, forward etc. Do you have any suggestions or do you think I should just persist.

Thanks

Bill

[Maxi]

Juno sounds like a great dog, I'm sure you'll both have years of fun together

 

Many people do not realise what their body language is saying to a dog.

 

A good friend and his family came round this weekend. I popped inside for something and when I came out, I found my friend pointing at my dog and intensely staring at her in a similar fashion as Paul Hogan does with the Water Buffalo in Crocodile Dundee. My dog was submitting on her back, giving multiple facial gestures to indicate she wanted peace - if she could have wriggled away into the ground, she would have done. Despite this, my friend still continued staring and pointing at her. I was furious. Although my friend has had dogs all his life, he didn't think he was doing any wrong because he was about 10feet away, standing still and in his opinion he was not putting pressure on my dog. He just thought it was a neat trick.. To me and my dog, my friend was using his body and stare to 'shout' a command and then keep on 'yelling' and insisting even though my dog had responded appropriately.

 

Like learning all languages, understanding and controlling your body language takes time and effort. I certainly don't consider myself an expert and I'm sure I make multiple mistakes every day..., but hopefully now you are aware of how empathic Juno is to your inner energy, you can start to take advantage of this during your training.

 

As well as Juno reading your body stance and energy, she is also sending you signals. You describe how she was sniffing a great deal while you were having a stressful lead walk. Although there may well have been a very interesting set of smells, dogs will also sniff the ground if they are trying to show they are uncertain and want to avoid a situation. For example a young dog may do this when he starts learning to work sheep and he is feeling pressurised by either the sheep or the handler. When a sheepdog gives these signals, it's important to release pressure and encourage him to come forward.

 

So maybe in Juno's case when she sniffs a lot on the lead, rather than putting more pressure on her, you need to reduce it and give her a reassuring hug to calm her down before continuing on your walk.

[ourwully]

Maxi, this all makes sense. I really think this awareness will help Juno and I to enjoy eachother's company more. She really is a great dog. She is such a gentle soul and seems to be perpetually happy.

Cheers

Bill

[CMP]

I think I do leash training different than most people because I live in an environment where a leash is a rare thing for my dogs to have on them - I have to take them someplace in order to have a leash be necessary so I don't worry a lot about advanced leash training until they are older.

 

To answer you specifially about heel/loose leash:

 

1. I don't have a heel command and don't think one is necessary. I have a "come along" which is come walk with me in leash-length proximity and go where I go. I don't much care where they are in relation to me - ahead, behind, whatever. "Come along" has an implied "when I stop, you stop - when I go, you go" - eventually that becomes, when I stop you sit and stay, but that usually comes naturally, actually.

 

2. I train "closer" and "easy/slow" separately. When I want the dog to come close to me so I can put a leash on or feel it is important for a safety reason to have them go at a more cautious pace, etc. I give one of those two commands. In public it's "stay close" and the leash becomes somewhat unimportant.

 

 

So I really have the one command that has some variation controls built in to allow for any type of walking I might want to do. Bearing in mind that I virtually never take my dogs for walks - they come with me while I do things around the house/farm/yard. When I do take them for walks it is for them, not me, and I let them sniff and wander around and stop to eat flowers and whatever. I'm just there to make sure they don't eat deadly nightshade or run out into a street or be aggressive to a mastiff or some such. It's *their* walk.

 

For someone who lives in an urban environment, for whom leash walking is a really important part of their relationship with their dog, it would be quite different.

 

My dogs, over time, see leashes as instruments of mistrust and agree to them but you can tell they find them a little insulting :/

 

You'll be fine - you know why? Because you're doing all the right things. Don't worry about making mistakes - these dogs are very forgiving and eventually you two will work out the system that works for you. No book or system can account for your individuality so use them as guidelines but don't be afraid to use unconventional methods - the idea is for the result to be what you want - the how you got there is sort of irrelevent.

 

Good luck.

 

As a PS. - all three month olds are good on leashes, generally speaking, they are still infants, afraid of the world, and the leash is a line to "mama" or "papa". I guarantee that same three month old will be MUCH worse before it settles into its own type of good.

[ourwully]

Thanks for the encouragement CMP. Although I am asking a lot of questions on the forum I am just trying to do my best. I am really enjoying watching Juno's personality develop. I really like your two commands because at the end of the day all I want is a companion who will come when she is called and to stay close when she is called so that she stays safe. I live in an urban area but my house backs on to an extensive trail system so my long term goal is to have her walk with me off leash but come when she is called when she may be in danger or when she may be bothering others. My last dog was a wonderful husky but even after 14 years he couldn't be trusted off leash so it is really exciting to see Juno progressing so well.

Thanks again

Bill

[Lizabeth]

I am not in a wheelchair, however I do use a cane or something that I can push, like a walker at times, We have had issues with similar issues. Wanting her to wait for me to go past her has been a huge issue. I gave up telling her to stay in these situations, I rather have been telling her to wait. She knows we are going somewhere and knows she needs to be with me, so "Wait" seems to be working for us. I can walk around her, or in front of her while she is in a sit position.

 

It is one of the hardest things for my girl to do, as she so much wants to be rite next to me. I used positive reinforcements with her, saying "Waite" I tell her yes, and Waite as I manover around her. I understand the frustration you must be going through as their can be situations when it can become quite dangerous when you need your dog to stay put so that you can get past. For me it is doorways and stairs that are my biggest issues, I know this sounds silly but I started this 2 step stop with Gidget. She will go 2 steps and stop. We have worked it up to now she will go 2 or 3 steps and waite for me then I will say ok and she will go a again. She also will stop on command, its a slow slow process, I say its like getting in sync with each other. Learning each other, getting in sync with each other is a slow process, lots of love and positive reinforcements. I try to keep it fun, give her breaks, not over stress her or me in the process.

[ourwully]

Hi Lizabeth

My frustrations have lessened considerably lately. Watching my body language as suggested has really helped both me and Juno. There were times where things were spiralling out of control. She wouldn't do something, I would get frustrated and push more and then she would do less. Now I am taking a breather or changing the task and not getting uptight. It seems like a little thing but it seems to be working for me.

 

Your take a few steps and wait seems like a good command. I am pretty sure it will be two steps for me as well. Your Gidget seems a little further ahead than my Juno but we'll see how it goes.

 

Bill