Jump to content
BC Boards

Down from distance - for SAR training


INU
 Share

Recommended Posts

I dont remeber how I taught Happy her distance down, BUT I do know that I use a differnt word, because "down" also means come to me and lie down, as far as she knows, her command from a distance is "drop" I work with her in play a lot, for example when I throw a ball in a feild and Happy runs out to get it, half way there I will suddenly shout "DROP" and she hits the ground, same on the way back with the ball as well. all I remeber is some passerby being VERY impressed when she walked by and Happy, half way to her ball hit the ground as soon as the word "Drop" was out of my mouth lol Misty can do it to, but not nearly as well as Happy. however the thing with Happy is I have complete and total control over her w3ith my voice and I have for a couple years now, so I can repremend her without being anywhere near her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmm, I think I taught my first dog to down by saying the command, then if he tried to come back before doing it, saying NO and going and gently leading him back to where I said it and repeating it.

 

All the rest of my dogs learned to down on stock first, so that doesn't help. Maybe if you used a retrieve toy as a reward?

 

Is your down usually followed by a release? She could be confused as most releases happen from your feet. If so, try changing the command and making it clear that she is free to follow another command immediately without the release cue. Like, have her down however she'll do it, then send her after a ball or whatever the second her belly hits the ground. Pretty soon she'll anticipate that she's going away from you as soon as she downs and she'll (we hope) down the second she hears it. It's the closest you'll get to paralleling the way we train it on stock so I hope it works.

 

Eventually you can take away the toy and she'll drop whereever she is. Mine drop on command no matter where they are or what they are doing, regardless of whether there's stock around. It makes obedience people drool, let me tell you. Except the dogs tend to swivel their heads and wiggle around looking for those sheep. (c:

 

I've also heard people leashing their dogs up at a distance and giving them the command but I've never been crazy about that idea myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not enough info. What type of cadaver are you doing? Disaster/rubble pile stuff, or human remains detection? Did you start out lining up containers, or did you start out on plants right off the bat? Do you work her on lead at all, or is she off lead, working at a distance from you?

 

Also, I'm not sure why you couldn't click the down at the source, unless you used the clicker improperly before, as a cue to recall/alert. If you used it correctly, as a reinforcer for the behavior AFTER it occurred, then you should be able to use the clicker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We're working on building up down at a distance right now. The key for us is to increase the distance sloooowly. I ask for a stand or sit with the dog in front of me, then down and reward. Then I step back ONE FOOT and do it again until she will reliably go down one foot away from me without creeping. Then back up two feet, three feet, etc. Any creeping, whether as she goes down or afterwards, receives no response from me. I just ask her to sit or stand again, step a foot closer, and work at that distance until she's at least 80% reliable, then increase distance again.

 

Once you get the idea across, BCC's approach of running around and asking for sudden downs, then up and running again (as the reward) is great practice and great fun.

 

Re the clicker, it sounds like you are using the clicker as a cue, not in its conventional role as a conditioned reinforcer. If that's the case, and you don't want to change, just pick something else to use as your conditioned reinforcer. Some people like the word "yes", or you could use some other kind of sound, maybe an electronic beep or whistle. The reason people like to use the clicker is that it's such a discrete sound that you can use it to mark the exact instant the dog displays the behavior you are waiting for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inu,

N/P. I like hearing about other people's training methods. Your description of why the clicker makes her come back to you makes sense now that you've explained it. There are ways to avoid that, but I don't think that will help you in hindsight.

 

I've seen both the passive alert (down at the source) and recall/refind used for cadaver. Personally, I would like to use the passive alert when I start cadaver training, rather than the recall/refind that we use for live scent. The main reason is that I think each discipline (live vs. cadaver) should be as distinct from one another in the dog's mind as possible. These are two different "games". I would imagine there are as many different valid arguments for either way of doing things, though. One argument for the recall/refind is that if you already have a solid alert behavior, why train a completely new alert behavior when you can just teach the dog the alert they already know on an additional scent? I don't quite buy that one, though....it's just a devil's advocate thing. Another point is that if you do cadaver in a wilderness setting and your dog goes out of sight and does a passive alert, you'd never know! I would imagine that working cadaver, I'd be working smaller areas and keeping my dog closer than with live wilderness, though, so I'm not too worried about it.

 

Have you considered joining a SAR list and asking your SAR related questions there? There are a lot of people who have faced many of the same issues, many people with many years of practical experience, and many, many different points of view on how to do things.

 

That being said, I don't think you will confuse her by training her to down/stay at the scent source. I think it is completely doable to have two different alerts for two different disciplines. I would suggest doing your lineups with her on lead, and having her "drop" the moment she pinpoints the scent source. At first, click/treat immediately. Over time, build up the down/stay at the source by delaying a little longer each time before you click/treat her. Once she will down/stay with you right there, start having her search the line off lead while you hang back a few feet. When she drops, you GO TO HER and click/treat. I think that's where you made your error with the clicker, having her come to you for reward (but I don't think it's un-doable). Over time, you simply extend the pause between when she drops and when you go to her so that she learns to down/stay at the source until you come and click/treat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inu,

 

Don't forget that distance and duration are two different criteria. You should only increase one at a time, i.e. work at a particular distance and ask for progressively longer down-stays before rewarding, or vice versa.

 

Also, you typically have to build each criterion up slowly. Increase distance maybe a foot at a time. Increase duration maybe a HALF second at a time. How do you know when a half second has gone by? I count under my breath "1-banana" for each second, so a half second is "1-ba".

 

No one asked me, but here are some thoughts about how you are using the clicker for the refind behavior. The click should come at the END of the desired behavior, which is when Jazzy reaches you. Click should mean "you're done -- here's your reward." If you don't want the dog to add on an extra behavior after the click, you need to deliver the reward in place, where the behavior ended. For your refind, that means the click and the reward are delivered where you are. For your cadaver alert, the dog downs, waits patiently until you "notice", you walk to the dog, then click and reward in place.

 

One more point about the clicker. It is really only needed when the dog doesn't yet know what behavior you are looking for. The click tells the dog "THAT is what I was wanted you to do -- now you get a reward." Once the behavior is learned, the clicker should be faded out (but not the reward ).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When Ruger was begining Cadv. I too had him down with his head near the scent. When he would show some interest in the correct target I would put him in a down very close to it. Then I would give him a treat right next to the scent. He picked up quickly that he was to down when he found his "goobers" (his key word). They catch on really quick. Hope this helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...