BC breeders in CA, USA

[sharatk]

Thank you all for all the advices. Means a lot to me. I have started my research over an year ago to understand dog breeds. And To procure a puppy I am have already started to research breeders, which is like 6 months before I will take puppy home. So, yes I am waiting quite a bit. I am ok to give it a couple of more months if it comes to it.

 

I wanted puppy to be at home at that particular time, as I will be babysitting a toy poodle for a month. I will not have to worry about socialization for that month. After that time, once she will have her shots she can play with other dogs at the park. Also, for a year and half I have someone at home, so puppy will get 24 hour supervision in her puppy stages. After that I can hopefully leave her for 4 hours on weekdays (Or get a doggy day care).

I will try to make it to atleast a few sheepdog trials. Also I will visit farms here which imparts sheep herding lessons. Will try to talk to farmers who have these puppies for their own farms/ranches.

 

I have a few last questions, hopefully. The responsible breeders pointed by you guys in this thread. Do they register their puppies with ABCA. Will they guarantee the Sire and Dam's pedigree to ensure puppy's health, temperament and drive. Would they check puppy's hips and eyes before selling?

 

I read the paper on how BC showdogs are drifted away working dogs genetically. This is horrible what has been done to the breed. Is there a study showing how it has affected intelligence, agility, desire to please owners and health?

 

Now the toughest question. Say I do not find anybody with a puppy and have to betray my common sense and buy from a dual registered breeder (AKC+ABCA). I will start to visiting farms to meet puppy's parents and relatives. What do I look for in those places?

 

Thanks everyone for the wonderful support

[Eilshea]

Awwwww, don't do that, you've come this far, please don't do that.

 

You've spent the last few months doing some research, have decided this is your breed of choice, have found these boards and asked good questions. Please do not dispense with the advice you have been offered. There is more knowledge on these boards than any one person could amass in a lifetime, take full advantage of it.

 

I don't live in the United States but in the Highlands of Scotland. I'm around these working dogs every day of my life and live with two collies. If you have truly decided this is the breed of dog for you then support the people in your country who are doing everything they can to retain exactly what makes a border coliie a Border Collie. Please!

[mum24dog]

Anyone who claims to be able to guarantee a pup's health is lying.

 

Anyone who offers to give you a new pup in exchange for the first if it develops a health problem is relying on your being bonded to the pup and unwilling to surrender it to an uncertain future, maybe death.

 

Don't be a sucker - do your homework.

 

Pups can't be tested for the commonest eye conditions or hip dysplasia, the parents can. Genetic test for eyes and radiographic test for hips.

 

Hip scores of parents - I'm not sure what the breed average is now. It was 14 which is a total of the scores for both hips. The lower the score the better but you also need to see if the score is fairly even on both sides. A 7:7 would probably prove to be better than a 12:2 in the long run. There are no guarantees that both parents with low scores would throw all low scored pups but the chance of getting a well functioning dog is higher than in a pup with high scored parents.

 

Not all working breeders hip test their breeding stock, preferring to rely on their personal knowledge of their dogs and their offspring over many generations. And HD doesn't necessarily affect a dog's function. Our BC has it to a moderate extent - 8 1/2 years old and still competitive in the top grade of agility here in the UK. We'd never have known if he hadn't been xrayed following a mysterious temporary drop in performance that resolved itself.

 

Eyes - Genetic testing of breeding stock will tell you whether a pup can be affected by CEA. Parents both clear - all pups clear. One parent clear, one a carrier - no pups affected but some may be carriers. Carrier to carrier is a no-no and no one in their right mind would breed from an affected dog. A pup from 2 clear parents doesn't need to be tested again before being bred from.

 

No eye testing, no registration with the ISDS and I'm assuming it is the same with the ABCA.

 

(Hope I've got that right.)

 

If a breeder could guarantee temperament and drive there wouldn't be so many working failures. Again, careful breeding just stacks the odds of getting what you want in your favour.

 

But if you adopted an adolescent dog that needed a home you would be able to see what you were getting.

[juliepoudrier]

SHARATK,

In answer to your question about the breeders pointed to in this thread, yes, they register with ABCA.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by guaranteeing the parents' pedigree. Ethical breeders will register litters from registered parents and the pedigree should be an honest representation of the dogs in any litters' background. The whole purpose of a registry is to maintain records of pedigrees. Unless someone has falsified something along the way, one should expect that what the pedigree says is true. I am certain that the people recommended in this thread are honest people who would not falsify pedigrees.

 

Health guarantees are much trickier. Genetics aren't something we can guarantee. Genes are funny things. Mutations happen. Two dogs bred together could produce pups with genetically based issues that neither parent produced in any other cross (each to other dogs). Recessive traits (genes) appear unexpectedly. I don't think any puppy buyer can reasonably expect a breeder to guarantee against all things. The breeder can test for those issues that are known to occur in the breed and for which a test is avaiable, but even some of those tests (the subjective ones; that is, the ones that are testing a phenotypic manifestation, like dysplasia or deafness, rather than a genotype, like CEA) aren't going to guarantee a particular outcome in puppies.

 

For me, the main thing is to know and trust the breeder, know their dogs, do my research on any issues that might have arisen in past litters, and then just cross my fingers that I don't get the short straw in the genetic draw.

 

The working dog world is a little different than what Mum24dog describes above. People do return dogs (pups) for any number of reasons, so it's not completely unreasonable to expect a breeder to take back a dog (pup) that has a health issue. Some owners will indeed be attached to the "defective" pup and not want to return it; others will return a pup in a heartbeat. It's worth asking.

 

Working guarantees are just as tricky as guaranteeing genetic health. I could say with confidence that the pups from the litters I bred would want to work. Some were likely more talented than others, but it's hard to judge when you also have to consider the raising and training of those pups. I know of more than one that I think could have been something much better than what they are had they simply been in different hands. One exception to the whole "who raises/trains it" issue would be if you had an agreement with the breeder that they start the pup when the time comes. Otherwise, I wouldn't guarantee anything more than the likelihood that the adult would work (that is, I wouldn't guarantee the dog would be a world beater or that the dog would be excellent at a particular person's needs because training--the whole nurture vs. nature thing--is a huge component of how a working dog turns out ultimately).

 

In answer to your question about intelligence, working ability, etc., of AKC dogs, I can speak only anecdotally from my own experience. I think the conformation bred dogs are perfectly nice dogs. I believe they are intelligent. But if the ones that I've personally seen (and in some cases trained/worked) are any indication, the genetics that control exceptional stockworking ability are already being lost. Although I won't support AKC border collies for any reason, I couldn't honestly say to someone that an AKC dog wouldn't be a good pet. I would stay away from such dogs, and especially if I was hoping to find a good stock working dog.

 

JMO.

 

J.

[mum24dog]

I should have made clear that my comments about taking back pups were in regard to breeders such as those the OP referred to who have a more pet owner market.

[Liz P]

Did you ask the people I referred you to if they knew of anyone else in CA with pups?

 

"I wanted puppy to be at home at that particular time, as I will be babysitting a toy poodle for a month. I will not have to worry about socialization for that month. After that time, once she will have her shots she can play with other dogs at the park. Also, for a year and half I have someone at home, so puppy will get 24 hour supervision in her puppy stages. After that I can hopefully leave her for 4 hours on weekdays (Or get a doggy day care)."

 

Don't agree at all. You do not want two new dogs in the house at the same time (poodle plus your pup). That would be the worst time to take home a new family member. It would be better if you can focus your time and energy on your new family member.

 

Playing with one poodle at home is not adequate for socialization. Pups need to see lots of different people, dogs and places.

 

Pups do not need to wait until they finish their vaccines to leave home. If you follow the recommended vaccine schedule (booster every 4 weeks from 8 to 16 weeks old), your pup will have some protective immunity. Be smart and take the pup to low risk places like homes owned by trusted friends and family, puppy class, sheep dog trials, etc. Do not take your pup to public parks, dog parks, pet stores, etc.

 

24/7 supervision isn't actually ideal. Dogs that were never left alone as pups often develop severe separation anxiety. Do leave your pup alone in a kennel for a few hours at a time so it can get used to being alone. Getting your pup used to a crate and kennel will serve it well later in life (hospitalized at the vet, boarding, travel, etc).

[GentleLake]

^^ What she said.

 

I board a dog who's here anywhere from 4-6 (occasionally as long as 8 weeks at a time and then he goes home for a similar period of time before coming back again.

 

We've been doing this for a year or more now and it still takes Scooter at least 3 weeks to settle in here. The poodle will not be feeling secure and acting normally most of the time its with you. Adding a puppy to the mix will complicate matters, not that it can't be done.

 

But more important is that, as Liz says, your puppy needs to meet lots more dogs and other people during its formative months. One dogs at home is only going to expose it to that one dog, which it might get attached to and then it's gone (possibly setting it up for separation issues) and not help at all with meeting other dogs appropriately.

 

As for your being home for a while, it used to be thought that it was a good idea to be able to take some time to spend with a new dog or puppy.

 

Now it's believed that it's better to just acclimate it to your existing routine right from the start. If your schedule is going to be such that you're going to be home for a while, I'm not saying that you shouldn't get a pup then if that's when the right pup is available, but I am saying that you shouldn't necessarily get a pup then just because of that fact.

 

If you do, be prepared to do a lot of prep work so that the pup can adjust to your starting to be away from home for periods of time.

 

So, you have lots of time to find a well bred pup without settling for an ACK dog.

[sharatk]

Hi Liz,

 

I did.

None of them had one available at that time. Jennifer said they might breed one next year or she might be able to get me one when I am ready. But then again, things are not certain. She does not take deposit to reserve a spot. But I am hope things can work out.

 

I apologize for not being very clear when I meant 24 hours supervision. I mean there will be a human being in the house, but that certainly does not mean in the same area. I will crate train her from day one. Secondly that poodle is a miniature. Extremely happy and playful dog. Loves to run and play. We took him to a friends' who had a giant Newfoundland and the poodle was very convenient and became friends. He also very well behaved, so knowing the dog personally, I highly doubt it will be any problem for him.

 

Socialization wise, one dog is not enough, agreed. She will meet a lot new people and will go to a lot of new places. But dogs I know usually personally are a rambunctious lot. They are also medium to large size and love to wrestle. I am too paranoid to take my 2 months old puppy anywhere near them. Anyways, I will consult vet on when can I get the puppy meet other dogs.

 

I did some more reading. It seems to me that both AKC and ABCA registration are a farce. One might be more than the other, but essentially both are useless. AKC registered dog might be ugly and ABCA registered might not be able to herd. Both of they do not do any health checks before giving the registration. It seems best way to get a healthy puppy is to know people. I am starting to do my bit. This weekend I will go to LA to attend an agility trial. Agility trails, so it will be full of BCs and I hope I will see some dogs who I like. I can talk to owners and find some breeders who they might recommend. I will also go to sheepdog trials and trying to dig information of ranches who employ BCs.

[Debbie Meier]

I did some more reading. It seems to me that both AKC and ABCA registration are a farce.

Troll Alert....

[juliepoudrier]

Actually the OP is making a pretty valid point that ABCA registration doesn't guarantee a working dog just as AKC registration doesn't guarantee a conformation show prospect. That said, I find it sad that despite all the comments here the OP apparently sees nothing wrong with getting a sporter collie or one that has ABCA and AKC registration/pedigrees. It makes me think that the OP is really more concerned about expedience....

 

J.

[Liz P]

Yeah, this is about how I feel right now. Seems like so often I am wasting my time.

 

[sharatk]

Yesternight I came across this blog when researching how breeding for looks has hurt the breed in terms of stamina, intelligence and drive.

 

<REMOVED>

 

I hope that convinces you that I am not messing around. Nobody has that kind of time and energy to do so.

[Liz P]

For Dog's sake, take down that link and don't read that blog.

[Maralynn]

I agree that registries are merely for record keeping and that much more needs to be considered. And that there are tons of unscrupulous "breeders" who register with the ABCA. So this is what I look along with where the parents are registered with - working ability of the parents. Do they work sheep on a good to high level like Border Collies should? Remember, breeding for sheep working ability is what created the breed that could do anything. Sport bred dogs can be nice dogs but when you don't breed for working ability you start to loose part of what makes a BC a BC. Health of the parents - are they sound? I personally prefer that hips are tested but realize that isn't a guarantee. Temperament of the parents - Are they adaptable and neutral at least to new situations? They don't need to be Wal-mart greeters but I don't want to see fearful or agressive behavior. Then how do I feel about the breeder? Do they seem like a person with the dogs/breeds best interest at heart? Can I have an open conversation with them about their dogs? Health guarantees aren't a make or break for me because any signifficant health issue is likely to cost me more than the monetary value of the dog and I'm not going to return them after I've bonded with the dog. But if it's a refund of the purchase price without giving the dog up then that would be nice I guess.

[mum24dog]

It seems best way to get a healthy puppy is to know people. I am starting to do my bit. This weekend I will go to LA to attend an agility trial. Agility trails, so it will be full of BCs and I hope I will see some dogs who I like.

No, agility trials will be full of dogs that are good at agility (or not) and may look like BCs. Even here in the UK where a lot of agility collies are working bred I would never suggest a trial as a place to find a breeder. Too much chance of being seduced by the superficial attraction of a sport breeder.

 

I would normally rescue and our rescue BC competes in the top grade in agility with my daughter but for our next dog, for a multitude of personal reasons, I am considering buying a pup. I identified a working breeder who I would consider years ago in the event that the day might come when I might betray my conscience and buy rather than rescue.

[sharatk]

Ok that makes a lot of sense. I will limit my searches to ranches/farms and links that emerged from this thread.

 

Thanks all of you.

[mum24dog]

Good luck with your search.

 

I am not saying that it is impossible to find a good working breeder through contacts made at agility trials but if you aren't already in the agility loop it will be well nigh impossible.

 

Some working dogs stand out just by appearance but most look much like many sport bred dogs. In a non working situation it can be difficult to be sure which camp they come from or whether they are a bit of each. Success in agility isn't the way and you can't talk to everyone at a trial.

 

Not only that, I believe that true working bred dogs are pretty rare in agility in your neck of the woods.

[Blackdawgs]

The other issue is that people have different definations of "working". AKC people have their own defination

 

A few years ago, an agility person told me that her next Border Collie was going to be "working bred" and she gave me the name of a breeder that in her opinion produces good "working" dogs. It was an AKC breeder

[GentleLake]

^^ Yes!

 

You can't assume that because the litter is being raised on a farm or ranch that they're working bred dogs. The parents have to be actually working livestock proficiently to be considered working border collies.

 

And some (not most, but some) well bred working litters won't be raised on farms or ranches, even though their parents proficiently work livestock.

 

You do have to do your homework.

[workindogs]

Some agility and conformation folks will talk all day long about how their dogs "work" and are "proven workers", but if you ask more specific questions you might discover that they are talking about agility, playing ball or catching frisbees. For others it might mean that their dog was "instinct tested" which could mean the dog chased dog broke knee knocker sheep in a small pen....or maybe it has a "started" title.

[sharatk]

When I talk to them (If I do, now I am not too sure if I want to go there at all), I will of course ask the questions those were discussed in this thread.

 

I think now I can(and should) expand my search to cover WA state. Placed which aren't too far from Seattle. I have someone living there who can check puppies and breeders for me. Can someone please give me references for WA breeders as well.

 

Thank you all for wonderful support.

[amc]

http://www.wastockdoghandlers.org

 

Washinton Association of Stock Dog Handlers. Plenty of good info there.

 

Amy

[sharatk]

Hello All,

 

I am forced to resurrect this thread as I was able to make only a little progress so far in my quest to find a good ABCA breeder off South CA. I have been trying to do everything suggested in this thread like staying out from AKC guys and agility/sports competitions.

 

There are no UBCHA trails in this part of the world. There are a few closer to San Francisco though.

 

From what I got from this forum, I started to pester trainers at sheep herding training facilities. Was a remarkable experience, since one of the trainers let me work her dog and it was fun. I was amazed how much control the handlers have on the dogs and what right training can produce. I lurked there for more than one weekend.

 

It was going good, since the owner seeing my interest, did say that she can think of putting me on the list. Her dogs are very biddable, calm, love humans and run tirelessly. They I think go to USBCHA competitions and I guess they won a few titles here and there. Plus they were smooth fur and smaller bone structure. Ideal for South CA because of heat here. lesser weight on the dogs might mean lesser probability of bone related problems (Just my theory, could be wrong here). What could have gone wrong. But things are never so simple. My wife does not approve of smooth fur. She likes a bit of coat on the animal.

 

Which brings me here again. How do I find good ABCA breeders in Southern CA. The ones I can find off internet (I look for ranches) either do not reply or just tell me tersely "We sell only to working homes".

 

Can I get a few references from the forum again to contact people who are activity in herding community and would know about any good upcoming litters. If you do not want to advertise, please leave me a PM. If somebody from South CA, has a bit of time at hand and are willing to help me out, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

My first question, how do I find good breeders. Please kick me in right direction.

 

Thanks

[TEC]

Norm Close is in the Idaho panhandle, just a few miles from Spokane, WA. He does not have pups now, but has litters from time to time. He sometimes has trained dogs for sale. In the event a breeding is not planned, Norm or Vickie may know who to contact. Check-out their website: Handhills Border Collies.

 

They breed and train working dogs, and are active competitors. Norm does clinics and judges. -- Best wishes, TEC

[amc]

Get in touch with Bill Wilder, president of iHerd at http://www.iherd.org. He's putting on a USBCHA trial at Hidden Valley near Riverside January 2-5, 2015. You might offer to help with the trial - that's a fantastic way to get to know handlers and their dogs. Lots of top trialers will be at this new Southern California trial.

 

Good luck!

 

Amy