Jump to content
BC Boards

Your recall protocols explained in detail


Recommended Posts

Hi everyone! Ok, my 9 mo. old is in full teenage swing now. Very agile, smart and excitable. Her recall is positively terrible. I take full responsibility for this since I just overused the "come" command (and any notion that she needs to return to me) without reinforcing it. As it stands, she will certainly come back to me...when she feels that its in her best interests, but when it isn't she'll positively ignore me. Not good! While she is a wonderful pup otherwise, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be able to call her off if she was really excited.

 

So, I need to go back to square one, determine a new recall command and get her properly trained up. I work SO SO hard not to keep blabbing my mouth and repeating "come! come!" but it's like a reflex. She's 9 months old, very well behaved otherwise and is trained on the clicker. I would like to stay with the clicker if possible.

 

Can you detail your approach to recall in this case given she's already developed a sense that she can ignore the command? How do you begin? How do you enforce the command if she ignores? Thanks so much! At this point, most of the rest of her training seems so unimportant compared to this, so it's my top priority right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I could train myself out of absent-mindedly using the dog's recall command and then not enforcing it, my dog would have the best recall ever.

 

I am considering changing it to something I would never, ever say and then ONLY using it during training or when I need her to come back. "Young people these days!" "Racist swearwords!" "I LOVE THE AKC"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to use "return" with Speedy as a recall. It wasn't something I had a tendency to just say mindlessly.

 

For training recall, I start with whiplashes - many with super high value reinforcer no distractions. If I can get my husband to work with me we practice calling the dog back and forth with the new word.

 

From no distraction we go to low distraction to moderate distraction to real life. I find that if I do enough of the whiplashes at no/low distraction, I don't need to spend much time at all working at higher distraction levels - the response is ingrained.

 

At some point I fade the food and use more praise to reinforce, or permission for an environmental reinforcer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use the dog's name and "Come" for a formal recall. I never let her get away with a sloppy return. But, when I just want the dog to meander over, or what ever, I say "c'mere." The later "command" indicates a less demanding attitude on my part. If the dog refuses a formal recall I will walk her down and end the day's work/fun/what ever. It rarely happens.

 

My biggest training/proofing tool is to recall the dog and immediately give her a "Free." She has to come - but she gets to go back to whatever she was doing after.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My biggest training/proofing tool is to recall the dog and immediately give her a "Free." She has to come - but she gets to go back to whatever she was doing after.

This worked exceptionally well training her to "drop." She would drop on command and immediately get the toy back.

 

So I assume the normal training approach applies: start small with low distraction and move up gradually? At the moment she gets a fair amount of off leash time, mainly surrounding the ball. When the ball is present she's 100% attentive of me so I'm not very concerned with her recall. Should I be limiting her time off leash during this period?

 

As much detail as possible is great! Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like Root Beer I use a whiplash head turn, and spend a lot of time with it gradually working to more distracting environments. I find that doing this makes the dog orienting to me almost a reflex that they can't help. I graduate to playing "back and forth" then recalling from fairly safe enclosed environments.

 

I reward recalls every time...sometimes with a treat, sometimes with a pet or other stuff. Like Geonni, I like to reward a recall with a release to run off again. I find the dogs don't get into the "if I come when I am called all the fun ends" mindset. I also call them, require a quick sit or down, and then release. I want them eager to hang around when I call, and in real life I might call them and ask for a stay while another dog or person passes so we want to practice that.

 

I like to occasionally jackpot a good recall by racing in the house or to the car and doling out a massive handful of high value foods, or for my dogs who adore toys, by whipping out and using their most favorite-est toy. My BC loves tugging on his fabric frisbee, and I can't do it much due to a bum shoulder, but I will brace myself and let him have a good 30 second tug with it. My big Papillon loves to get his frisbees tossed in quick succession with no requirement for him to bring them back (which is usually in place).

 

And I also like long lines...they let me *not* call when I am pretty sure they won't come, reinforce a come if I say it and prevent them from thinking they can get away. I attach them to back hook harnesses.

 

I train to "Come Here!" or a whistle for informal recalls. Whistles carry and the dogs seem to tune into them better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you using the long line?

 

I have to say I'm a long line convert. My dog is by no means 100% off lead but it's good for showing the dog that you want a quick response, and for increasing their sense of your control at a distance.

I did use it for a while. She was very good with it and barely needed any enforcement. It's when the line isn't there that I have the issue. If the command was ignored did you simply reel the dog in?

 

Also can someone define what "whiplashes" are?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not a good dog trainer so take all of my advice with caution and a pinch of salt, but I found it was useful (with my older dog) to just 'remind' her that she had to come and that means 'now' not 'in your own time'. She would be really interested in something and would then get an 'oh yeah, still have to obey when this happens' moment when I tugged. I haven't had to reel her in yet, but I can see that that would be useful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whiplash Head turn is an exercise in the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. McDevitt refers to this name game as the Whiplash Turn Game, because of the result of your dog, upon hearing his name, whipping around to look at you so fast he receives whiplash. You start the practice in your home where you will toss a treat and just as your dog is about finished chewing it you say “Fido!” invitingly and the dog whips around and looks at you, you then give him a cookie. Then you toss the food again, invitingly say name, and when the dog looks at youreward. This game is a good one to play while using a clicker or a verbal marker like ‘Yes”. You would use the behavior marker as soon as you see the dog's neck turn toward you, click or yes and then reward. At first the dog only needs to look at you but ideally the dog would come towards you and sit looking at you.

 

He becomes conditioned then when you say his name he should start moving toward you for good things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whiplash Head turn is an exercise in the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. McDevitt refers to this name game as the Whiplash Turn Game, because of the result of your dog, upon hearing his name, whipping around to look at you so fast he receives whiplash. You start the practice in your home where you will toss a treat and just as your dog is about finished chewing it you say “Fido!” invitingly and the dog whips around and looks at you, you then give him a cookie. Then you toss the food again, invitingly say name, and when the dog looks at youreward. This game is a good one to play while using a clicker or a verbal marker like ‘Yes”. You would use the behavior marker as soon as you see the dog's neck turn toward you, click or yes and then reward. At first the dog only needs to look at you but ideally the dog would come towards you and sit looking at you.

 

He becomes conditioned then when you say his name he should start moving toward you for good things.

Oh, ok that makes sense. Ironic too since I just ordered Control Unleashed today! I will get started with Brix right away! I'm going back to some of the more basic stuff anyway. She's so darn smart I got her into more advanced tricks but started to overlook the basics. I'm going back to basic hand-touch exercises to get her used to coming to me and I will certainly incorporate whiplashes in! Thank you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used a combination, the whiplash turn, pass the puppy: where my husband and I would do restrained recalls, one of us would hold him and the other would be bouncing up and down and being the most exciting thing ever, the holder would release and the puppy would charge over and get his treat, it's also a great game to play with kids. I also used to go the park and run away from him and he would chase me, I did this for agility to he would get used to reading my motion but it helped with recall . But I think the most important advice is not how to teach it but remember to be happy when they come back always, even when you are mad because they have forgotten you exist when you finally get them back be happy!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always found that patience and persistence work best in a recall. I NEVER allow one not to be complied with. I NEVER ask twice. She has learned that the cost of not coming when called is a loss of her freedom. Mind you, she is not a leash dog nor is she restrained in any way - she has free run of the property and only has a leash on when the law demands it - she mostly free walks - even off property - so the loss of her freedom is a HUGE deal.

 

Recall is also the one thing where I do not - ever - offer a food reward. I don't go around with treats in my pocket and I have no intention of starting now :/ She needs to come because I ask it. That said, I also never give a recall in anything but a positive, upbeat voice - no matter what badness I may be recalling her from. Coming to me is ALWAYS good and ALWAYS gets a praise reward. It takes longer to train, but I feel it is solidly proofed and I never have to worry about her feeling "ripped off" if she comes for a recall and there is no treat.

 

FWIW - here are my "no break" rules for training recall:

 

1. ALWAYS make sure you have their full attention and they are looking at you before you recall - a dog that is looking you in the eye must willfully disobey you to ignore a recall and that will happen much less often than a failure due to inattentiveness or distraction.

 

2. Start out by hunkering down, using a hand gesture or other "open arm" type posture - make yourself inviting. A human on the same level is inviting, one standing up is intimidating. Start praise as soon as they start to come towards you.

 

3. Make a good balance of positive, neutral and negative recalls. A positive would be a recall for a treat, a neutral would be a recall to provide a break or change an activity or to simply re-orient the puppy where he can go back to playing or whatever he was doing and a negative would be a recall to go inside or to bed or some other thing seen as negative. Do as few negatives as possible while training - at bedtime I tend to pick them up and bring them to the door of their crate when they are learning recall. On walks, I do not do a recall, per se, I use my secondary recall command which is "come along" and means "stick close to me" but is a non interrupting or partial interrupt recall and does not feel restrictive to the puppy.

 

4. ALWAYS make recall a positive command - even when you are so mad that you want to spit nails. I make the command and if she does not come, I walk her down. If she tries to evade me, I run her down, scoop her up and its into jail with her for at least half an hour - all done with absolutely NO talking or scolding or angry behaviour. It's a simple thing and requires simple cause and effect, imo. Jail is a tether and while on the tether no one and no other dog is permitted to socialize with the offending puppy. It only takes a few times for them to make the correlation. I cannot stress enough how important it is to do it with NO anger, though.

 

5. Find fun ways to practice recall. Hide and seek, chase me, as a prelude to a game (I always call puppies to me in a recall and then ask them if they want to play and send them off to get a toy, etc.). Use it all the time, VERY frequently - for all sorts of things - even from a few feet away - it starts to stick. And always treat the failure to respond the same way.

 

YMMV. Good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^

 

just a word of warning on "walking a dog down." It works well for a confident dog who has a generally good understanding of a recall, and has made a choice to ignore you.

 

But if your dog is confused or has not had enough time to generalize it, you can create a problem. Also if your dog is very very soft you can create an issue.

 

I made the mistake of walking down one of my dogs, in my yard who I was sure was just ignoring me. He really kind of freaked out and panicked and wouldn't come close to me at all. I had turned into something not to be trusted. I aborted and it didn't matter. He would not come near me outside for 2 weeks.

 

It carried over and two years later if he gets a little freaked outside he won't come close to me if i call him. We went to a friends house to swim and she lives on rural property so we walked from the pool to my car off leash. My friend and I stood there talking and he got interested in something, and then I called him and asked him to load up and he was busy sniffing so I said "Hey!" and he got that panicked look and wouldn't come near me again. I had to squat down and wait while he circled me looking away, tail between his legs, torn between doing what was asked and coming close to the scary monster I had turned into. After a few minutes he made the right choice and crawled up to me and luckily he was never in any danger from traffic or other dogs, but ugh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. Good cautionary tale. The first time I walked her down, she definitely got the fight or flight posture going, but when she realized I was not being aggressive (I started laughing at her for looking scared) she was okay.

 

When I say "walk her down" I mean I walk to her with purpose, clearly with a mission, but it is NOT an aggressive walk and I make sure the look on my face is the same "happy happy" as when I called her in the first place. Sort of like, "you silly thing, now you are going to have to be on the tether - ah well, you'll learn ..."

 

I am trying to make the exercise more of a "you silly goose, I AM going to get my way with this one, you might as well give in" as opposed to "resistance is futile" if you know what I mean.

 

I don't recall ever having a dog act frightened of me (one that I trained/raised, I mean). I suppose the framework counts, too - the general behaviour the dog is used to, what other things are in place. When I start training the recall, it is a VERY interactive process with me picking up the very young puppy and putting them where I wanted them and making all sorts of fun fuss about it. I also train recall from just a few feet away for a good 3-4 weeks before I proof it from distances and with distractions.

 

I always felt that the act of making sure you have their attention before issuing a recall sort of counters the "aggression" of the walk down - for me, it is ALWAYS willful disobedience because I make sure I have their attention before issuing the command.

 

For lots of people sit and recall are the first commands trained. Mine is always the dog's name. When I say it, I want her attention - from the time she was six weeks old, when I said her name I was making sure she looked at me. Until they get that down pat, with hardly a miss, I don't do any other formal training other than giving names to things (like sit, down, stay, speak, etc.) So maybe the difference is in the priority of focus. Hmmm - good food for thought.

 

I think I would wreck a dog that had no confidence - I would have no patience for any creature that was frightened of me. Disobedience sort of amuses me, creative disobedience makes me laugh out loud but fear perplexes and ultimately annoys me. I would be a TERRIBLE trainer, I suspect.

 

Long winded way to say, that's a good point which is well taken.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. Good cautionary tale. The first time I walked her down, she definitely got the fight or flight posture going, but when she realized I was not being aggressive (I started laughing at her for looking scared) she was okay.

 

When I say "walk her down" I mean I walk to her with purpose, clearly with a mission, but it is NOT an aggressive walk and I make sure the look on my face is the same "happy happy" as when I called her in the first place. Sort of like, "you silly thing, now you are going to have to be on the tether - ah well, you'll learn ..."

In his case, I think it was not that I was aggressive (when I walk a dog down I am always calm and neutral) but that he didn't understand as much as I gave him credit for, and for whatever reason my "calm neutral face" became instead "weird and unpredictable." I had never had that happen before.

 

He is, generally speaking, rowdy and not fearful which is why I assumed he was choosing to ignore me when I called him. But for whatever reason, it backfired.

 

I will probably make the choice to walk down a dog again, depending on the circumstance, but won't do it until they are older, and I am VERY confident they understand better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never had any success walking one of my dogs down. No matter how steady or calm or neutral I am he still thinks it's a game and keeps running away. Any tips on this, or suggestions as to how else to get a dog when they ignore a recall?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

I'm confused by this. If "Walking a Dog Down" means what it sounds like and is the same as the sheepdoggers WDD, it is marching to the dog, very authoritatively until the dog "gives" (usually looks away/breaks his focus on the stock). It is a severe correction and even in early stages of training, infrequent.

 

The dog reads it as "OMG, the Boss is very, very angry with me. I'd better submit right now and reset."

 

If the trainer overdoes this and ignores the dog's submission, the dog may panic and flee. Not a good habit to initiate.

 

If a pup doesn't come I'll clap hands to get his attention, crouch and croon. If he still doesn't come I'll come closer and croon. I'll do this if need be until we're a yard apart and he comes. If I have a runaway or "this is a fun game" pup I'll put him on a light nylon line and pop it (while crouched, crooning and getting nearer). Coming TWO FEET is always rewarded with high praise. No treats. I don't use them.

 

I neither want nor admire a "whiplash recall". My dogs recall well enough to get along in the world but they're not drones. If I'm calling them off sheep I need to flank them around so we're both on the same side before they'll come. If they've found a carcass, I'll need a "Leave it! That'll do, here!" and they may snatch one last bite. If my male is sniffing bitch in heat spoor, he may raise his leg before he runs to me.

 

That's okay. I do not demand MECHANICAL obedience. I demand CONTEXTUAL obedience. Sure, it's okay if the dog takes a little time over bitch spoor but if he pesters someone's bitch at a trial, he MUST recall NOW at my command. He MUST NOT bolt across a busy street to an appealing scent. A dead squirrel discovered on a farm walk is one thing but he must drop and"Leave it!" the appealing trifle he's found beside the motel dumpster.

 

If I wanted a drone I wouldn't start with a dog.

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to admit that I am highly amused by the fact that when I call Dean into the house all three dogs come running as if they are going to miss a party if they don't!

 

The interesting thing about this is that neither Tessa nor Bandit have been taught to recall to Dean's name. I have never done a darn thing if Tessa or Bandit don't come when I call Dean's name, and Bandit's recall to his own name is only at about 70% at this point (rapidly improving). But I call Dean and all three happily come running.

 

I would say this started out with them associating something good with responding to Dean's name (getting to follow Dean - they both love him and love to run with him). But now it is something they have learned. It's what they do. They can be out plastered to the gate, staring longingly into the big yard, wanting to go out and run, but if I call Dean's name they break away and come running.

 

To me it goes to show the value of repetition and a high level of motivation and reinforcement (in this case running with Dean was the motivation and reinforcement) in the early stages of training a recall. Granted, I didn't intend to teach them this particular recall, but in the end I did!

 

Dean has always had the best recall of all of my dogs. I taught him initially with food and toys. Made it fun. Lots of repetition. There really was nothing special to it - just did the grunt work - lots of reps, lots of reinforcement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well then, it's semantics. I believe I have only ever walked her down in the fashion Donald suggests once or twice - and both times I think were well deserved. I don't think anyone wants an automoton for a dog.

 

When I say "walk her down" I mean, I walk towards her firmly and with purpose but not aggressively or with any anger whatsoever. It's meant as a "I am *always* going to win this particular one, doggie".

 

That said, I don't willy nilly use recall. Once I train it and proof it (I use a whistle recall, distinct from any other command learned) I rely more on the "come along" command which allows her to finish sniffing stuff, wander a few feet this or that way, just generally be in the same area as me and move along in the same general direction as me. I DO require the recall to be absolute - she will not succeed in her future work without this particular asset. I suppose that is why I work so hard to let her have choices in most other areas and give her a lot of freedom.

 

I think, too, that a distinction needs to be made from dogs which are primarily leash dogs and live in non-rural areas and dogs which are not on leash much and have free run. My dog is free run and only has a leash on her when we get out of a vehicle anywhere but home or when we are in a place where the law demands it. Our daily walks, our daily life are 99% leash free. I have always found a recall is more easily trained and encounters less resistance on a dog whose freedom is not that dear.

 

I'll tell you when I do walk her down in the fashion described ... when she disobeys the "stay home" command - her "home" being very clear to her and a well known and understood boundary. This is a safety issue and I tolerate NO deviations from it. I'm okay with her understanding there are a few things in which I MUST be obeyed. All service dogs work under the same basic precept. Some things are not negotiable because they make the difference between a dog who will succeed and one who will fail - or worse, fail the object of their service.

 

It's the same for all things - people or dogs - you just are not allowed to do some things. Period.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

Mr. CMP writes (in part): "I have always found a recall is more easily trained and encounters less resistance on a dog whose freedom is not that dear."

 

Makes perfect sense. When friends' pet dogs come to the farm, I walk them with my dogs on leash for three days or so - until they start bonding with my pack. One - a boxer/akita? - never did bond but most have. Then I take off the leash as we're returning to the house. If all goes well we've begun offlead work. If not, the friend's dog will bolt for the house. Next day I take it off when we're outbound some distance from the house. If the FD is with the pack, I recall the pack and he/she comes with the others. I praise the FD. A couple more walks and I'm recalling the FD solo.

 

If they'll bond with the pack, they'll do what the pack does.

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

If they'll bond with the pack, they'll do what the pack does.

 

 

Exactly so. Our working dogs have most of their primary training done without them having any idea they're being trained. They come with the pack when the pack comes and they learn it as something between "dog stuff" and "people stuff", one would guess.

 

In the past, with a very resistant dog, I never recalled him unless he was with one of the other dogs who had a good recall. I called both and they both came. Eventually it was a habit that he never seemed to think about.

 

Is there a dog around who does a good recall who you could use as a role model. It works in nature, it ought to work with a little human tweaking, no?

 

Just a thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly so. Our working dogs have most of their primary training done without them having any idea they're being trained. They come with the pack when the pack comes and they learn it as something between "dog stuff" and "people stuff", one would guess.

 

 

This is very interesting, as is the rest of this thread. I've been following along encouraged by the success stories and by the wealth of knowledge and as usual discouraged by the massive variety in training approaches. I agree, my dog is very sensitive and walking her down would definitely cause an issue. Recently she went after my cat, so I grabbed her collar instinctively. A couple weeks later I was in the midst of a training session and decided to start gradually reinforcing collar grabs. I did two of them from a seated position and she was fine (collar grab-click-treat) and then did one from standing with a little more direct intention and at that moment she wouldn't come near me or wouldn't follow the rest of the commands. It was a big eye opener as to her personality because the original collar grab during the cat incident, while it was firm was not violent (my dog never experiences hitting or unreasonable yelling) She however definitely saw it differently.

 

So I expect that walking her down would be a challenge. The other thing is that sometimes she's really far away and if you haven't noticed border collies are really fast! So it may quickly become a frustrating game of chase.

 

What I have started to do recently (and bare with me as I'm still a little confused and having a hard time finding a protocol to stick to consistently) is to use the ball sessions to work on recall. She's crazy about the ball. She also does a very reliable "wait" for the ball until I release her to get it. So what I do is put her in a down-wait about 15-20 ft. from me, toss the ball 20 ft. away and then make her come to me before going to get the ball. It's working and she's doing well with it. The only thing is that there's really no enthusiasm in it because there's no chasing the ball. Does this sound like a good approach?

 

The other thing I have done is introduce hand targeting with the clicker in the living room without distractions. She's very responsive to gestures, so I have a specific position that I hold my hand that signals her to come touch with her nose. I'm hoping once this gets more reliable I can use it from greater distances. Agreed?

 

The last thing I need to do, and this goes well beyond recall, is to get her back to responding to her name reliably. I think she's heard it so many times (and I wish I could shut off my constant blabbing) that its lost its value. This is partially for recall, but partially to stave off her growing reactivity, which I will address in another post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I have started to do recently (and bare with me as I'm still a little confused and having a hard time finding a protocol to stick to consistently) is to use the ball sessions to work on recall. She's crazy about the ball. She also does a very reliable "wait" for the ball until I release her to get it. So what I do is put her in a down-wait about 15-20 ft. from me, toss the ball 20 ft. away and then make her come to me before going to get the ball. It's working and she's doing well with it. The only thing is that there's really no enthusiasm in it because there's no chasing the ball. Does this sound like a good approach?

 

Why don't you call her to you and then throw the ball when she gets to you? There are a number of ways that you could do this to actually reinforce the recall.

 

A couple of weeks ago, Bandit decided it was really fun to run toward the door after he was called in, but then turn around, run back off of the deck, run back, and get "stuck" halfway between.

 

I didn't bat an eyelash. It was simply not a "thing" to me. I got his hollee ball. I called him and threw it behind me (in the house). He tore in. I used it a couple more times. He learned it was way more fun to come in than to get "stuck" on the deck. I backed it up a couple of times with a hidden treat jackpot. It hasn't been an issue since.

 

If there is no enthusiasm for the ball in the setup that you are using, it isn't reinforcing and that isn't likely to increase the behavior that you want. So, make it fun. Call her to you and reinforce with a fun game. You could have her come, sit, release, throw the ball. Mix it up. You don't have to do the same thing every time.

 

And try to relax and enjoy the training process. If your dog senses that you are frustrated, she may keep her distance in an attempt to appease you!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...