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Can pets be successful working dogs?


caraline
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I've posted a few things lately, but I feel as though I should ask this because I've been thinking about it for awhile and couldn't find a previous post on it....

 

Can "pets" be successful working dogs? By pets I mean dogs who interact with the family, live in the house, go to the dog park and play fetch/socialize, are running partners, etc.... By successful working dogs I mean eventually get to the point where they can compete at a trial where the handler can expect the dog able to complete the run. It doesn't have to be open competition, just be able to show competency in herding....

Here's why I ask:

 

I have two dogs: 1) 1.5 year old who I bought off Craigslist. He's papered and has a notable cattle dog champion in his background, but otherwise is made up of no-names, ranch dogs most likely. He is started in herding, but still very novice and we have some good, some less than good days. 2) 5 month old with an impressive champion pedigree (we weren't seeking him specifically, he just happened to be available). The puppy is from a successful breeder/ trialer who I keep in contact with. We don't have sheep, we live in the suburbs and train on the weekend with a local trainer.

 

Looking for some advice/different viewpoints, we called up the successful breeder/trialer. Their advice was that a dog whose pedigree is unproven is essentially a waste of time so we shouldn't expect much of him. Also, if we wanted to go anywhere in herding we had to stop thinking of our dogs as pets and instead view them as tools. We were told to crate except when we were actively engaging with them. They don't get to do anything without us, basically. As for the puppy, he's expected to be great, but not if we continue our current setup.

 

I would like to know how others feel about the line between pets and working dogs. I don't ever expect to be in the running for a national championship, I would be happy to compete on any level, but it's discouraging when an expert tells you your dogs not worth it just because of bloodlines. (Note: we worked with the expert at a young/puppy clinic a few months back when we were just starting to get serious. They haven't seen him since, just heard a few tidbits here and there).

Sorry this is so long, any opinions are especially appreciated.

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I do not yet herd with my dog, but hope to start my working-bred puppy when he is ready. Even so, I have been reading these boards for years. I have noted that many triallers (at all levels from novice to Open) do keep their dogs inside and interact with them as family members -- i.e. they are pets when they are not working.

 

I am sure you will hear individual stories from others. I look forward to reading them.

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There are certainly people who take the perspective your breeder did but I think it's probably more common that working dogs live a version of a pet's life. That doesn't always mean they live in the house, etc (though many do) and they still might be thought of as a tool in some (or many) contexts. And the full range in between. Virtually all the people in my area live with some or all of their working dogs as part of the family and most live in the house and are companions as much as working partners. Most don't play a lot of fetch or go to dog parks, though--but that's as much circumstance as anything else.

 

You can have a successful working partner who lives as part of your family for sure.

 

Our dogs all live as pets and companions and we play fetch with them quite a bit :) Those who've been asked to be have been successful sheepdogs per your definition above.

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as I snap a photo of Jake laying on his back on Wayne's lap in his recliner, Jake a 4 time cattledog finals qualifier and placed 4th in the nation twice, who occasionally sleeps in the bed and has his own couch....

 

I think the biggest thing that most pet owners have a tough time with is teaching self control, limiting the dogs time out and about making their own decisions along with teaming up with another dog vs. you can be helpful when it comes to making training gains faster. Training places a lot of requirement on the dog.

 

When I have students that maintain a similar level of requirement in their home the dog typically advances faster. But if when they are away from here they get to do what they want when they want we end havinge to go back to clean things up so that we can progress each time we have lesson, in some cases the dog will actually rebel. It can be frustrating for the trainer.

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I think a lot depends on the dog and the environment. I have one dog that is pretty successful, 9th at the Nursery Finals, winning and placing well at difficult open trials, manages my flock at home come chore time... sleeps in the bed and is generally my companion dog. He is also a relatively soft dog that is very interested in partnering with me... he requires little to no pressure when training or working. I don't have to play Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde with him.

 

I have a youngster that is showing he needs an extreme amount of structure leaning much more towards he is in his kennel if he isn't training or doing something very specific with me. They both lead very different lives...

 

The whole "tool" thing is a fascinating conundrum for me. I have 3 dogs... I would only have one if I wasn't working stock. My main dog, Tip, is my companion dog... I don't treat my other two as tools but they certainly aren't pets either. Trainers that have 10 - 15 - 20 dogs... the relationship they have with their dogs must be very different... clearly they aren't all companions. Of my friends that have more dogs than I can count on two hands I've not seen dogs mistreated or not well cared for... they just aren't pets. I can only guess that they would not have all those dogs if it wasn't their livelihood and they have to be in a mindset that allows them to either sell dogs worthy of it or place dogs that aren't going to make it. It seems to me a different reality. I don't know that we can compare or judge them when we might be standing on the other side of the fence.

 

I can also imagine it might be confusing for a dog to go from laying on the couch, watching TV with us while eating bon bons to going out to the pasture and having significant pressure applied because they are making a mess of a fetch...

 

sorry... it seems i have more questions than answers.

 

dave

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Our working dogs do not trial or otherwise "prove" their working ability and you would have to go fairly far back in the studbook to find a "champion" (six dog generations, anyway) so they might look like a bunch of no-names but every single one of them is proven where it counts. For about a decade they go to work every day they are able and the farm could not function without them.

 

I think there is a triple divide in the BC world. There are actual working dogs (some of whom trial - but not many), working bred dogs that are used for trialing (some of whom actually work, but not many) and sports and pets and no-name dogs that are used as pets which may or may not be working bred or sports bred or whatever.

 

Frankly, I think dogs are like horses. Sometimes the breeding of champions produces champions and sometimes it produces well pedigreed duds. Sometimes the breeding of duds - well pedigreed or not - produces champions. Genetics are a funny, generation skipping thing, in reality.

 

To speak to the actual question in the original post: all of our working dogs live in houses. Most often with the person who would best be described as their most usual handler - sometimes this means one person has three or four dogs who live with them. All the working dogs are loved and most are beloved. They are petted and played with (well, most of them want to be left alone at night, but the option is always there) and taken swimming and given treats and bones and left to sleep where they wish inside the home, etc. They are members of our extended family and treated as such. One of them lives with me although I am not his handler - we have just always liked each other and when I moved back to the family farm and got a BC puppy to train for service work, Moss came to live with us as a role model for her. An arrangement he seems to like as he chooses to come here every day even though he is welcome at his old home.

 

Point is - everyone has a different view of these things. You will get a hundred opinions and similar "horses's mouth" stories.

 

I would offer this reminder about the breed: they came to be DESPITE THE FACT/BECAUSE OF THE FACT they were never bred traditionally - the best dog was used, whether he came out of a good dog or a bad dog, traits skip generations and some animals were born great - even if they were born in the bloodline ghetto. Every Border Collie, in my experience, needs his or her own proving ground and bloodlines only tell you what MIGHT be - they will never tell you what WILL be.

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I will just add that my version of a "pet' and yours may differ. When we take dogs in that are pet dogs to train I see the following: *your mileage may differ

  • behaviours I wouldn't tolerate out of my allowed at home dogs such as bursting out of the crate, not crate trained, barking at "things"
  • some softness with a correction; and I am by no means harsh; but confused as to what to do when faced with some choices
  • One of the most annoying things is a dog that although crate trained, isn't used to being in a crate while another one is out and fusses and carries on (your point about them always being with you)
  • Too many interactive games such as fetch and tug; my husbands open dog would play fetch all the time if you let him...and I certainly didn't teach him that. Retreiving logs (and I do mean logs) does get a giggle out of me.

I have 3 dogs that live full time with me, one has couch privileges, all of the puppies are raised with quite a bit of access to us in the house. But all of them can be crated if necessary. When grown and training they spend a lot more time than any pet person's dog I know in their kennels or crates. They almost all love to come for car rides to the feed store, or more likely that the car ride might lead to sheep work. No one sleeps on the bed unless it is the mini schnauzer and my husband is away.

 

Don't worry about the pedigree too much, unless it is all sports or show bred; I try not to even look at a pedigree until I decide if I like the dog or not :)

 

So my advice, if you are asking, is to create a working partner. Let them do some thinking on their own, learn to be off leash, be reliable, quiet when you want them to be; a couch potato if you want. Teach them to tie out to something and not bark. Enjoy them and take them to whatever level of training they and you are capable of

 

Cynthia (and 14 border collies, a huntaway and 2 mini schnauzers...5 white dogs....but who is counting)

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Several things:

1. My first working dog, who togther with me, a newbie handler, made it all the way to ranch (one step below open on the east coast) was a rescue with an unknown pedigree. Caveat: dogs bred strictly for sport or conformation will be less likely (especially the latter) to be stellar workers, but just because a dog doesn't have "champions" in its background or has an unknown pedigree (or unknown dogs in the pedigree) doesn't mean it won't turn out to be a good and useful worker.

 

2. I have always had anywhere from 6 to 10 dogs. They all live in the house and could be considered pets. Some sleep on the bed. Some are crated when I am not there (for various reasons), others have the run of the house. We do things other than work stock (e.g., walking/jogging partners, swimming, fetch occasionally, tug occassionally, etc.). I enjoy their companionship in the house. They keep me company, even if I'm not interacting directly with them. So far, I have managed to train all of these dogs to the open level. So clearly their being pets** (**see #4) in their off time has not affected their working ability or trainability.

 

3. As Cynthia noted, there are pets and there are pets. I have had pet dogs come for lessons who have never been faced with any adversity, whose owners are too permissive, etc., and these dogs as a rule do not make good working dogs. They are not used to working with a person in the sort of partnership that is required when working livestock, they are not used to corrections (issued by a human or stock), they have not been taught self control. They can do basic things on stock, but in general have to be constantly encouraged, and you better be ready to really get happy with them if they run into any sort of correction (stock turning on them, me giving a verbal correction, etc.) or they will quit. <--Obviously this is a generalization, but it's meant for illustration because it brings up an important point:

 

4. Pet dogs who are raised with future work in mind generally don't have the same issues of dogs who are just raised as pets (again, there will be exceptions to this "rule"). So although I say my dogs are pets, they all learn to tie quietly on a fence while other dogs are being worked, they learn to be quiet in a crate when activity is going on around them, they learn to take verbal and physical presence corrections, they learn to behave off leash individually and as part of a pack. I can be pretty permissive, too, but the dogs learn that there's a time and place for being silly.

 

5. Equating living, sentient animals, especially those who were created to work in partnership with humans, with tools just irks me. It "dehumanizes" (what's the animal-specific term for that?) them and IMO that's just one step down the road to treating them as equipment that doesn't need any more care or consideration than a shovel or wheelbarrow. Dogs are social animals with their own emotional/mental needs. Seeing them as tools removes the need to recognize their needs as sentient beings. I'll never forget an article I read where a prominent handler refered to his sheep as "training tools" for the dogs. I was shocked and saddened by that attitude. I know it's semantics, but I feel sorry for any animal whose human views it as nothing more than a tool.

 

J.

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Very well put, Julie!

 

My dogs have always been pets, or what I prefer to call family members. (My using this term generated a thread of its own not too long ago.) The way Julie describes her relationship with her dogs is very much like what I have with mine. I've had working sheepdogs, though I never trailed (just not me). With my life situation having dramatically changed, it's unlikely I'll ever have a working sheepdog again, but my purebred border collie still "works" as a therapy dog (and, yes, it is work for the dog), and with luck (and a lot of hard work) the lurcher will as well. So they definitely have expectations for the ways they'll behave both at home, their working environments, and just generally in public.

 

But essentially, yes, my working sheepdogs lived with me in my home the same way that any of my other dogs have done.

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After reading all the replies in this topic I think it comes down to a person's idea of what a "pet" is. For me there is no distinction - a dog is a dog and should behave like a "well mannered" dog in all things. With a good foundation a good dog can do any job (with the requisite innate skill set) and fulfill several roles - such as sheepdog, companion, sleeping buddy.

I don't indulge dogs in the sense that they get away with things. I do indulge them in the sense that they tend to have lots of toys/teaching tools masquerading as toys and bones and good food and good vet care and attention and love. But even the best loved dog, who is intended to be little more than companion has to come when called, sit quietly when told to, not demand my attention, not pull me on a leash, stay inside their defined boundary, not bite or bark or growl at me except in play and only chew on things they are allowed to chew on and in the places I allow chewing. To not do this would make that "pet" a pain in the ass and I don't want my pets to be THAT kind of pain in the ass.

I don't equate "pet" with indulgence but I have watched an awful lot of pet owners fail their dogs BIG TIME by not insisting on being listened to. How confusing that must be for the dog. Sometimes they can stretch a command into two or three repeats, but sometimes you give them bloody hell for it ... sometimes they have to lie down when told and sometimes they can avoid it by being really cute or running off or whatever ...

A good dog, if it has the innate talent, can be a good sheepdog or a good pet or both if the "pet" philosophy includes somewhat foolproof obedience in most things and absolute obedience in some things. The boilerplate, if you will, of both functions *should* be the same, IMO.

As always YMMV and if I have not yet apologized for my rather rampant verbosity, I do so now.

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Thanks everyone for your input. I'm glad that my viewpoint isn't alone, even if the boundaries get a little blurred between everything. I understand how an expert whose livelihood depends on many dogs can't necessarily treat everyone like members of the family, but I was irritated with the idea that there was only one correct way to raise a working border collie.

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In the movie Away to Me, Amanda Milliken, a handler I really admire, says she keeps her dogs in the house and treats them very affectionately. Take a look at the 2014 points accumulated towards finals:

 

http://www.westmark.com/~els/usbcha/stockdog/events/points/opnpts1.html

 

The top 20 qualifiers... Good thing for everyone else that there is a limit on the number of dogs you can enter!
PLACE
HANDLER
DOG
POINTS
1.
AMANDA MILLIKEN
ROZ
109.0
2.
AMANDA MILLIKEN
DOREY
99.8
3.
AMANDA MILLIKEN
MONTY
94.6
4.
BARBARA RAY
STELLA
90.2
5.
BEVERLY LAMBERT
NAN
87.8
6.
MARY LOU CAMPBELL
DYNA
83.8
7.
SCOTT GLEN
DON
81.8
8.
DAWN BOYCE
SLIM
80.0
9.
TIERNEY GRAHAM
BRISCO
79.4
10.
BEVERLY LAMBERT
JOE
78.6
11.
LORI CUNNINGHAM
MATT
76.6
12.
RON ENZEROTH
MICK
71.4
13.
DON HELSLEY
WIZARD
71.2
14.
DAWN BOYCE
GAGE
68.2
15.
LORNA SAVAGE
TYLER
68.0
16.
JOE HAYNES
KEALLY
67.6
17.
BILL BERHOW
COAL
63.8
18.
ALLEN MILLS
SIS
63.0
19.
JONI TIETJEN
SAGE
62.6
20.
DENNIS GELLINGS
TESS
62.4

Case closed!

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Something else to consider - if you're actively training your dog with a working goal in mind then some of those other activities naturally fall by the wayside. Activities outside of training for the "job" are going to focus more on conditioning or low key stuff instead of other mental and physical exertion. So they may live in the house with the family/as a family member but they don't do other pet dog stuff because there's no need (or perhaps time) to

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I think an awful lot can depend on your situation and what your dog actually does. For the old-time hill shepherds, whose dogs ran miles and hours in a day, to be put away in the evening in a snug, comfy kennel to eat and sleep in peace and quiet, might have been very suitable for both dog and handler.

 

Most of us do not use our dogs that much or that constantly, and I think it's a good life for a dog to be able to work at my side, and to live by my side when not working. It satisfies my heart as much as it does that of the dog.

 

What I think is worse for the working relationship than *where* the dog sleeps or eats or spends his/her "downtime" is just *how* that non-working time is spent. The dogs and our relationship with them benefit from structure, reasonable expectations, boundaries, mutual respect, and and understanding of who is in charge of making decisions or allowing decision-making, as the case may be.

 

I have often let my dogs down by not being consistent and intelligent as their trainer/handler. That is, in my opinion, much worse than whether or not they live in the house or are able to get on the bed.

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My Open dogs live in the house...sleep in the bed, have birthday gifts, watch TV next to me, go to the ice cream store and still manage the flock and run at trials. As for unproven, my Tess was from two unproven parents and did quite well. I also have some trial dogs that live in the barn. They work just as well. Even though my Open dogs are my pets, they know when we step outside to do sheep work, it is all business. When they retire, they just get to hang out and help with lessons and learn dog tricks. Maid loves to fetch the ball and swim in the pond to get the ball. They love the treat ball at night (ball you stuff treats in and they have to roll it around to get the treats out).....but once they step through the gate, all fun is turned off and the serious meter is going full blast. At the last trial, Nan was sleeping under the chair, snoring and totally passed out. I nudged her to tell her we had a run. She got up, yawned, stretched then strolled slowly to the gate...it was quite funny as she was so nonchalant about it, and then put on a nice run. Then after her run, she went back to sleep under the chair until I got some ice cream, then she was the begging queen. So yes, your trial dog can be a pet....

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My dogs work for a living. Their living and mine. Without them my husband and I don't eat or pay our bills. They work every single day, rain or shine, hot or cold, unless getting a break due to injury or need some time off. I have 5 main work dogs. They live in the house. The older guys sleep on the bed. They go everywhere with us. We spend all day together. And I trial for fun with them. And often, before the trial, they work, and often, after the trial, they work. They are part of our family.

Of my border collies

Two are rescues-

Two I bought as little pups.

 

The rest I bred for my work.

 

They know how important they are. two are under my chair as I write this.

waiting for evening chores.

 

Don't give up on your little dog.

 

It is the trail you walk together that is important

and who knows where you will end up.

:)

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I've posted a few things lately, but I feel as though I should ask this because I've been thinking about it for awhile and couldn't find a previous post on it....

 

Can "pets" be successful working dogs? By pets I mean dogs who interact with the family, live in the house, go to the dog park and play fetch/socialize, are running partners, etc.... By successful working dogs I mean eventually get to the point where they can compete at a trial where the handler can expect the dog able to complete the run. It doesn't have to be open competition, just be able to show competency in herding....

Here's why I ask:

 

I have two dogs: 1) 1.5 year old who I bought off Craigslist. He's papered and has a notable cattle dog champion in his background, but otherwise is made up of no-names, ranch dogs most likely. He is started in herding, but still very novice and we have some good, some less than good days. 2) 5 month old with an impressive champion pedigree (we weren't seeking him specifically, he just happened to be available). The puppy is from a successful breeder/ trialer who I keep in contact with. We don't have sheep, we live in the suburbs and train on the weekend with a local trainer.

 

Looking for some advice/different viewpoints, we called up the successful breeder/trialer. Their advice was that a dog whose pedigree is unproven is essentially a waste of time so we shouldn't expect much of him. Also, if we wanted to go anywhere in herding we had to stop thinking of our dogs as pets and instead view them as tools. We were told to crate except when we were actively engaging with them. They don't get to do anything without us, basically. As for the puppy, he's expected to be great, but not if we continue our current setup.

 

I would like to know how others feel about the line between pets and working dogs. I don't ever expect to be in the running for a national championship, I would be happy to compete on any level, but it's discouraging when an expert tells you your dogs not worth it just because of bloodlines. (Note: we worked with the expert at a young/puppy clinic a few months back when we were just starting to get serious. They haven't seen him since, just heard a few tidbits here and there).

Sorry this is so long, any opinions are especially appreciated.

 

 

Hi there!

 

I think what this discussion proves is that the definition of a "pet" dog varies widely and what variation of the term applies to a given dog may vary just as much. As I see it, there are spoiled dogs and there are pet dogs, and sometimes there are spoiled pet dogs. It's the latter, I believe, that can be problematical.

 

I want to address first the bits of your post that I've highlighted in bold. One, I think it would depend on what one views as an "unproven" pedigree. If it means a dog has no champions or noted trial dogs in its lineage, that doesn't mean the dog is a waste of time - not by any means. I read an article in the ISDS magazine not long ago in which the first sentence stated that most working dogs in the UK are not registered. What that means to me is that there are a lot of farmers out there breeding their good working dogs and selling them to each other, but because their dogs aren't registered or trialed, they might therefore be regarded as "unproven." But ... they're still good working dogs. Just like the ranch dogs in your dog's pedigree.

 

But if by "unproven" it means the dogs in the pedigree have never worked stock and are just generations of pet dogs and flyball dogs, there might be something to it. Ultimately, it depends on what those dogs were bred for and what they did. If they worked, they may be every bit as good as any champion bloodline. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. If the dog works sheep, then go with it! You can't work papers, you can only work the dog. :)

 

Second, dogs as tool. My response to that is an unequivocal NO. That's an old school mindset with which I do not agree. A working dog is not a wrench or a post pounder or a hammer. A working dog is a partner. A working dog is the culmination of hundreds of years of selective breeding and, unlike a hammer or wrench, he needs careful, thoughtful and fair handling to create him into the best partner he can be.

 

I have a friend who is a shepherdess in Scotland and her livelihood depends on her team of dogs. Sometimes they get injured, sometimes they come up lame, because the days are long and the miles are tough and accidents happen. But she cares for her dogs deeply, and when a promising youngster suffered a catastrophic leg injury, she went ahead and had it amputated and nursed him back to health, and he will spend the rest of his days with her, doing whatever he is capable of doing. He was absolutely not a tool she would discard and replace with another.

 

A dog is not a tool. He is your partner. Build that partnership fairly and consistently and you will see wonderful things happen.

 

Third, crating a pup except when he's interacting with you is a sure-fire way to turn him into a neurotic mess! Now, having said that, I will add that it's different if a dog is working on the farm and putting in the miles and hours a day with you. Then, putting him in a kennel (not a crate!) at the end of a day's work isn't putting the wrench back in the tool chest, it's giving your partner time out for a well-earned rest.

 

But you're not a shepherdess and your dog won't be working sheep or engaged in training with you for hours a day. Do the math: how many hours a day would that result in him being locked away? I don't see hours of crating as a healthy way of life.

 

Which brings me to the larger question: can pets be successful working dogs? Hell, yes! Why not?

 

It's as I said earlier: there's a difference between pet and spoiled pet. My dogs work. They trial. They have worked as setout crew for various trials and we help friends with various sheep projects. Nick and I have even accrued enough points this year to qualify for the National Sheepdog Finals. But ... both border collies and our Aussie are presently lying around the house relaxing after dinner. They do this every night, plus they sleep in our bedroom, get our leftover steak bits and tend to follow me into the bathroom. I pet them and love them and sometimes kiss them on the forehead. I talk to them in silly voices and each morning, Nick gallops into the living room and fetches a couple toys from his box, so he can romp with them until I fix their breakfast. I'm pretty sure that constitutes pet dogs.

 

But they also have rules and structure. They must behave as civilized creatures and have good manners, and follow the house rules. There are behaviors we don't accept and things we don't allow. They have time outside in the dog yard during the day without us really interacting or interfering with their doggie lives. They are crate trained as pups and crated for travel, and they know how to walk on leash and how to walk with us off-leash, as well.

 

They are pets. But they are not spoiled pets. And that I think is where the difference lies. For most of us, those who work our dogs but aren't big hats and have no illusions of being sheepdog trial greats, we want to enjoy our dogs in the fullness of their beings. Time off around the house is as rewarding to dogs and humans, both. We only have them so many years, after all.

 

The point I think those old school folks mean to make is that a spoiled pet dog can't be a good working dog, and too often, pet dogs are given way too much leeway at home and without a habit of obedience or learning, they transition poorly to the regimen of training and work. So, if we want our pet dogs to be good workers, we just have to be consistent in how we raise them. Good manners and good habits begin at home. Bring your pup up in the way you mean him to go, and he should go as far as his abilities and yours allow you to go.

 

I do understand that keeping working border collies as pets is not everyone's cup of tea. If someone has multiple dogs, that's a lot of tracked-in dirt and hair in the house. If they have a busy household with kids running in and out, border collies in the house may be too much. And if those dogs work all day on the farm or ranch, the last thing their owner wants is half the farm tracked in all over the kitchen floor. Plus if a dog is working hard for a living, some peaceful downtime with no humans around to bother him is great! A nice kennel is not a bad thing at all and a working dog who lives a full life does not suffer for use of them.

 

But as I said, for the rest of us, with our couple of dogs and part-time working opportunities ... there is no harm in keeping our working dogs as pets, as well. Not if we raise and handle them right at home.

 

Whew. Guess this got a little long, so I'll sign off, now. :)

 

~ Glori

 

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Everyone has answered so well I don't feel the need to add a whole lot on my opinions as I agree with many already stated.

But wanted to write about is an experiment that a friend and I fell into while working our last dogs together which happen to be littermates with very similar qualities and working styles.

 

I have Faye, bought when she was 4 months old, lived on the farm in a kennel till I got her. She came home with me and I turned her into a fun loving house dog who is a bit shy around strangers (didn't get socialized till after 4 months) but came along nicely learning how to be a house dog.

 

Friend has Zeb. Sold as a pup to a guy that threw him in a kennel and did nothing till over a year old when my friend got him back being told the dog wouldn't work stock or do anything. (that is not really a normal kennel life for a dog but it's what it was so we went with it anyways) Zeb is now a normal kennel dog, He gets to interact with humans, is treated kindly and gets out to either work or be exercised.

 

Now there is the point about Zeb and some not so good up bringing(really the lack of socialization and interaction as a pup) but this is about the difference between a kennel dog and a house dog not the other stuff.

 

So they started about the same age. Zeb had no communication except on sheep. He took some time learning corrections were ok but I feel it was due to mishandling as a pup.

 

Faye had a whole arsenal of communication due to her being the house dog. So right away there were big differences to be seen on stock. She had more nerve to question the handler. She had a bit more confidence and was a bit more bratty but really just puppy stuff. What really showed in difference was her ability to communicate with her handler. But it also could hinder her where her bro just took things in stride and didn't question as he never learned he could.

 

Zeb if not corrected to harsh was quick to move on, not try bratty puppy stuff and just wanted to please. They are both biddable but you can see a difference in their working partnerships and human communication, it's amazing. It was the first time I really saw the difference in kennel dog or house dog.

 

That being said, neither was better, just different. Some lessons were obvious as to the advantage being one sided but each new lesson presented either dog excelling for that day.

 

This might be extreme because I'm pretty sure kennel dogs are interacted with more than what Zeb had in the beginning but he was able to bounce back from anything that might have happened to him being "kenneled" without socialization except with other dogs. And Faye well she has matured into a nice working dog who loves to lay on the couch, love me while in bed and does all the regular pet stuff, not city pet but country pet. No dog parks, or leash walks. Just country life. She is totally leash trained and can interact with city folk but we like our quiet country life. She is dog friendly but not with obnoxious in your face/butt dogs. Zeb is actually more dog friendly but I have a feeling that's cause he is not neutered and he would love to love some of the females he meets. Fay's is not spayed either.

 

Either is ready and able to go to work at any moment. Serious about working like any nicely bred working dog.

 

Faye has some habits that I wish she didn't but so does Zeb. His worst is his desire to mark things and his lack of cleanliness. But I have seen that run in lines of dogs. Faye's worst is, if I'm sitting on the couch she wants to be in my lap getting loved on ALL THE TIME. Faye is spotless and would never "pee" in public preferring to go off away from your leg. Zeb could care less. Zeb took to toys as soon as I gave him one. He doesn't understand fetch but who cares! Faye knows what a toy is and enjoys them, she plays chase/fetch with other dogs cause I do play a bit with some older dogs. I've never taught her to bring anything to me. The other day she brought me a stick when there were no other dogs out so I'm sure she could quickly learn to play fetch.

 

What I concluded was either is good, just different. it's personal preference. If I had a dog that wasn't as keen as I'd like maybe kenneling would build keenness since they weren't getting pre-occupied with other things but if my dog was not keen enough that other things would be able to garner their attention over stock it would probably be a dog that wasn't going to cut it for me anyways.

 

Interesting enough it seems most people who kennel only will tell me why I shouldn't have my dogs live in the house. Those that have house dogs might feel "bad" sometimes for those kennel dogs but don't normally express that to kennel only people. I think I might have fell into that camp before but didn't usually say anything to those that kenneled. Kinda like I was less than a serious working person since I let my dogs be pets. Of course not all people feel this way but it's definitely out there and sounds like the op's breeder/trainer is one of those opinionated people.

 

Getting to know Zeb and watching both of them grow up to be great dogs, I have learned as long as a dog's needs are being met and it lives a quality life, it really doesn't matter to the dog.

Even if you turn a house dog into a kennel dog, Faye has been away for training and lived kenneled, she came home unaffected. if treated well they adjust. Maybe not an older dog but one younger and not so fixed in their ways. And I know kennel dogs can adjust but sometimes not as easy as you'd think to living in the house. If not raised in the house I think it can be more stressful in the beginning. But then again I've seen dogs slide into house dog roles with ease so probably just a dog to dog thing.

 

Just some observations on the differences that I've seen with these 2 pups.

 

If I couldn't have my dogs live in the house I'd probably not be doing this. Taking care of some kennel only dogs, I found it's easier for me to have house dogs. I don't have to remember to take care of them. No kennel cleaning, or special exercising time although there is that hair in the house thing! They are always right in my face and I like it that way! LOL My dogs are my pets, my working partners and mostly my life. But I think most that post on these boards would say the same about their dogs.

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As I see it there are two aspects to your question: Can "pets" be successful working dogs? (For this discussion working = working stockdog)

 

The first aspect is about "pet" being used to describe how the dog is managed: living in the house alongside their owners. Many people have addressed this aspect of your question.

 

The other aspect is about "pet" being used to describe the breeding goal used to produce the dog. Dogs that are bred with the goal of being a pet (as opposed to being bred for working ability) may or may not have the instincts to be a working dog. There is a lower likelihood of a pet bred Border Collie (even ones with some working dogs in their pedigree) becoming a useful working dog as opposed to a working bred Border Collie. This does not mean pet bred Border Collies cannot become useful working dogs, just that odds are not in your favor.

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Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

I spent the spring of 1988 in Scotland, interviewing handlers and dogs. Johnny Bathgate was elderly and frail but his Vick was a young powerhouse - the apple of John's eye. After a trial, we returned to his farm where he locked Vick in the byre and we went in for a cuppa. Inside I met John's pet, a much beloved, ratty westy who had the run of the place.

 

"John," I asked, "Why don't you let Vick in the house."

 

"But Vick's a collie."

 

The modern british handler is likely to have a dozen dogs or more and such a pack can't be kept indoors. But the shepherds who created the breed couldn't keep many (see Hogg's "Sirrah") and those two or three dogs lived with the shepherd in the bothy sharing his fare and keeping him warm at night.

 

These shepherds were near-serfs, very bottom of the British pecking order and, when agriculturalists became "Farmers" they did not wish to be mistaken for mere "herds". There were once “farmer’s” and “Shepherds” classes at the International.

 

I believe numbers and British class habits keep sheepdogs kenneled, not the requirements of sheepdog training. I've heard it argued that kenneled sheepdogs will focus more strongly on training because that's when they're with their masters and I think this is true but not necessarily a good thing. We've all seen the young dog let out for the “Nutso half hour” until it settles.

And other than those training/trialing sessions, what does that pup learn?

 

As several have noted, the pet dog can be and often is mishandled and no household, even dog savvy ones can avoid humanproblemsthatbecomedogproblems. It is quieter in the kennel.

 

Until Fly, I thought kennel?house? was a moot question. Most, though not all, top handlers kennel their dogs and I chose not to. No harm/no blame.

But Fly is a whole dog and how she was in the house was how she was on the trial field. As she learned the Big World, the small, intense sheepdog trial world became less overwhelming and contrarywise, sheepdog attentiveness made her more mannerly in the house.

I have come to believe that kenneling one's dogs may be a necessity but isn't a virtue. Collies, like Vick, can benefit by being among their human pack -as they were when James Hogg wrote about them.

 

Donald McCaig

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