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Barking: Active or passive approach?


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It's official, Brix is nearly 9 mo. old and training her now is far more difficult that it was at 9 weeks. The big issues lately are leash walking, recall, listening to me and barking (also related to cats, which you can read about in this previous post)

 

The issue is that she knows a cat lives on the other side of the fence at our new house. She has recently developed a new idea about cats after her interactions with our in house cat (see above post) She now loves to chase the cat out of the yard, hackles raised and barking at the fence. She will bark in that direction in the house as well.

 

I have read several approaches to barking training, most of the convincing ones steering you away from yelling "hey!" or "stop it!" when the pup barks. When she gets to barking I will go over by her make her lay down and then praise her as she watches attentively without barking. It honestly seems to do absolutely no good. She appears to be looking right through me.

 

What is everyone's experience with this? Do you take a passive approach on the theory that her not getting a reaction out of her owner makes barking boring? Or do you take an active approach, correct and then praise the correct behavior? If it's the latter, how long did it take to see progress? If it's the former, i guess the same question applies.

 

My pup is so smart, I can tell, but she seems to enjoy "playing dumb" at moments when she appears to not learn at all. Thanks for the help!!

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....Do you take a passive approach on the theory that her not getting a reaction out of her owner makes barking boring? Or do you take an active approach, correct and then praise the correct behavior?

 

 

My thought is that barking will never be boring, because it's a self-rewarding behavior. She's not barking to get a reaction out of you, she's barking because she wants to bark. So, if you don't react, she thinks it's okay and she's free to carry on.

 

I would therefore take an active approach, correct her and and redirect her, and make sure she understands that behavior is a big fat NO. It's unfortunate that she has a history with your GF's cat, but the pup does need to learn that this is not license to over-react to all cats.

 

Also bear in mind that this is an age where they are exploring their world and testing boundaries, so don't be surprised or dismayed if she seems to back-slide on things she's been good at. Just be consistent, patient and firm and she'll come along in time. :)

 

~ Gloria

 

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After living with some hard core recreational barkers (AKA Shelties), I eventually learned that an active but mainly reinforcement based approach was most effective. After years of trying verbal corrections and even a no-bark collar to little avail, I finally went the route of positive reinforcement combined with "time outs" and better management. My years long nuisance barker quickly became by far the quietest of my dogs and I felt stupid for not thinking of a reward based approach sooner. Basically, I taught her that if she came when I called she got a treat. If she came quickly off a barking jag, she got a bigger treat. If she stopped her barking jag on her own or "called herself off" some stimuli, she got many treats and praise. If she ignored my call, she was made to come inside which was the worst punishment since at the time there was nothing she loved more than hanging out in the backyard. At the same time, I stopped leaving her with access to the backyard when I left the house and could not intervene if she started barking too much. In other words, I didn't let her practice and self-reinforce the behavior. That is very important because, as Gloria says, barking can be very reinforcing for some dogs all by itself.

 

After a while the treats can be phased out and praise alone reinforces sufficiently, though I will still periodically hand out a small treat for quick compliance when told to quiet.

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YOU felt stupid!!? I had four Shelties back in the 80's and it never once occurred to me to try to train away the noise. Not that there was such a thing as +P training then, but jeez, if I'd only been smarter about it. As it was, although I loved my girls dearly, as attrition and personal deafness set in I switched breeds.

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I would actively prevent her from/correct her for chasing and barking at any cat. I know she's had a rough go with the housecat, but she needs to understand that cats aren't to be messed with no matter what. I would correct for chasing or barking at any cat, followed by a redirection to turn her attention to something else.

 

J.

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As Shetlander says, the positive approach is very effective.

 

I have dogs that have to be separated, some in the front of the house and some in the back. One of the front dogs barks - a lot - because he can see people coming and he is a terrier.

 

The back dogs used to take their cur from him and join in. No amount of correction or distraction worked.

 

I work in the back of the house and all it took was to reward the back dogs for coming to me without barking. Took no time at all and often I'll look up to see them standing by me expectantly when it hasn't registered with me that the front noisy dog has made a sound at all.

 

Most often now all they get is a good boy but they do get random treat reinforcement as well. The BC would probably settle for verbal praise but the hound x is more stomach orientated and less inclined to do things just because I want him to.

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YOU felt stupid!!? I had four Shelties back in the 80's and it never once occurred to me to try to train away the noise.

 

Oh my gosh, way too funny. When I had two Shelties, they split the barking duties into designated inside and outside barkers. It was wall of sound barking wherever I went. After a while, Sheltie owners tune out the noise, mostly anyway. There are those who insist that Shelties can't be trained not to bark. I know they can but it will likely take more than just verbal corrections. Fortunately I never met a Sheltie who wasn't a pig, um, highly food motivated. Management -- not allowing the dog to practice and engage in such self reinforcing behavior--is also crucial.

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YOU felt stupid!!? I had four Shelties back in the 80's . . . Not that there was such a thing as +P training then

 

There was lots of +P training going on in the '80s. Leash jerks and collar pops, ear pinches, etc. are all positive punishment.

 

Maybe it was a typo and you meant +R, positive reinforcement? But there was positive reinforcement in the '80s, too, treats and praise. Clicker training hadn't yet arrived, though, and the term "positive reinforcement" wasn't being used yet.

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I would actively prevent her from/correct her for chasing and barking at any cat. I know she's had a rough go with the housecat, but she needs to understand that cats aren't to be messed with no matter what. I would correct for chasing or barking at any cat, followed by a redirection to turn her attention to something else.

 

J.

This I definitely do when I can get there in time. Seriously sometimes it happens so fast it's impossible to catch her in time, but I use a loud "No!" along with body blocks to settle her down and then a lot of praise for when she's watching but not advancing. It's impossible to break that attentive stare, but occasionally she will look back to me, which gets her a lot of praise.

 

Occasionally she will be acting really bad and I will grab her collar and drag her away from the door where she sees the cat. I make this action very clear so that she sees she's doing something wrong, but that she's not being acted violently against. Twice she has yipped and bit at my hand while I was moving her. This was VERY discouraging behavior. In the moment I stopped and without letting go of her collar I said a very firm but calm "bad dog!" and then she was lead directly to her crate for a time out. I know it's hard to give advice based on just this account, but does this sound like the correct way to handle this? She needs to know that going after the house cat in this manner is way unacceptable.

 

Regarding positive reinforcement, when she is sitting watching attentively at the cat, I will praise her with a treat, but it barely breaks her gaze, so I worry that I'm reinforcing her attentive stare instead of her not advancing. +R is very complicated and something I feel out of my depth.

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This I definitely do when I can get there in time. Seriously sometimes it happens so fast it's impossible to catch her in time, but I use a loud "No!" along with body blocks to settle her down and then a lot of praise for when she's watching but not advancing. It's impossible to break that attentive stare, but occasionally she will look back to me, which gets her a lot of praise.

 

Occasionally she will be acting really bad and I will grab her collar and drag her away from the door where she sees the cat. I make this action very clear so that she sees she's doing something wrong, but that she's not being acted violently against. Twice she has yipped and bit at my hand while I was moving her. This was VERY discouraging behavior. In the moment I stopped and without letting go of her collar I said a very firm but calm "bad dog!" and then she was lead directly to her crate for a time out. I know it's hard to give advice based on just this account, but does this sound like the correct way to handle this? She needs to know that going after the house cat in this manner is way unacceptable.

 

Regarding positive reinforcement, when she is sitting watching attentively at the cat, I will praise her with a treat, but it barely breaks her gaze, so I worry that I'm reinforcing her attentive stare instead of her not advancing. +R is very complicated and something I feel out of my depth.

 

Make her drag a leash so you can move her without getting in her face and letting her practice snapping at you. Move her to a distance where you can get her attention into a training session without the fixation on the cat. Treats for looking at the cat (playing LAT) should involve her head bouncing back and forth from the cat to you; if not, you're too close and need to add some distance.

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Make her drag a leash so you can move her without getting in her face and letting her practice snapping at you. Move her to a distance where you can get her attention into a training session without the fixation on the cat. Treats for looking at the cat (playing LAT) should involve her head bouncing back and forth from the cat to you; if not, you're too close and need to add some distance.

Ok, I see what you are saying. It's very had to make every moment a training session. Sometimes she sees the cat and I'm on the other side of the house and quite some distance away. So it's hard to get there in the moment and make corrections. I will make a point of getting her further back from the cats location so I can break the fixation a bit. This generally involves constant body blocking since she's intent on getting past me. This is very frustrating.

 

Our house and yard has a very large footprint, so a lot of time she is doing things like barking or other bad behaviors someplace quite far away. It's very hard to resist the temptation to yell out to her since that is the only thing that I can do in the moment. Perhaps I need to limit her range in the yard? Maybe free roaming isn't a good idea for her. She only gets a small percentage of the day free and alone back there, but maybe that is enough to develop some bad habits.

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It's very had to make every moment a training session.

 

Ain't that the truth! Unfortunately with a puppy or adolescent dog I think it's a package deal. It might take a LOT of management and training but preventing her from developing and practicing bad habits now should be worth it in the long haul.

 

 

Perhaps I need to limit her range in the yard? Maybe free roaming isn't a good idea for her. She only gets a small percentage of the day free and alone back there, but maybe that is enough to develop some bad habits.

 

I'd suggest limiting her access to the yard if she's practicing bad behavior on her own. It doesn't mean she'll never be able to have free time alone in the yard ever again... but she will have to *earn* it. My own dog couldn't be trusted on our back porch alone until he about your girls age. The suddenly, when he was a little over a year, the neighbor got two dogs and left them in his yard, unattended, to run the fence line and bark all day. For poor Camden it was back to the drawing board but within a few months (with lots of distraction and training) he was able to be out on the back porch alone again and was extremely reliable to not engage in the fence running. We just moved to a new place and we're testing the waters with having him outside by himself. So far so good, but if he backslides we'll start from scratch. I think the key is to manage any bad behaviors as soon as they begin to surface. Prevention, especially with such self rewarding behaviors, is so critical.

 

I was also thinking, with regards to watching the cats from the doorway... if there anyway to block her access to the room the door is in? I wonder if her even just staring and cat watching all day is not making your job tougher once you let her outside?

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There was lots of +P training going on in the '80s. Leash jerks and collar pops, ear pinches, etc. are all positive punishment.

 

 

 

Maybe it was a typo and you meant +R, positive reinforcement? But there was positive

reinforcement in the '80s, too, treats and praise. Clicker training hadn't yet arrived, though, and the term "positive reinforcement" wasn't being used yet.

 

yes, sorry, I didn't catch the typo

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I was also thinking, with regards to watching the cats from the doorway... if there anyway to block her access to the room the door is in? I wonder if her even just staring and cat watching all day is not making your job tougher once you let her outside?

 

Unfortunately/fortunately we have huge sliding glass doors that pretty much make up the whole back wall facing the backyard, so that would be tough... She doesn't get to see the cat all day because the cat isn't allowed free access either. I think I might just need to be with her a lot more out there so I can get to the training issues right away...

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Interesting approaches. Here is what I have been trying with Dusty, our 14mo.

We live in a small town out in the country so we are kind of in a subdivision but lots of space between homes and no fences. For Dusty, anything or anyone walking by the house or in the lot across the street deserves a serious barking at! We have tried to keep her from barking with "No!" , but she totally ignores us until she here's us coming to the room (my office) If I'm in the office, she ignores my commands until I get out of the chair. So, since I kind of like the idea of a watch dog, I don't want her to never bark especially if we are not home or it's late at night. So when she barks I will priase her, call her to me the tell her "That'll do." We have been trying this for about 3 wks now, she is getting better, but we still have a ways to go. Any thoughts, critiques on my idea/approach??

BTW, the older BC Shadow, just totally ignores all the comotion... the only time she barks is when Dusty goes outside alone..lol

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