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Question for Stockdog People


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I really don't know anything about sheep. I have only had my BC for a few weeks and she is first a pet, second an agility dog (if she enjoys agility). I was reading the "Border Collie Breeder" thread and watched two videos posted by WildFlower/Vicki:

 

 

and

 

 

I found the second amazing. Just the dog and sheep.

 

The first video was just bazaar (for lack of a better word). The sheep seemed to be following the human and didn't seem to be responding to the dog (except to run away from the dog).

 

The only interaction I have had with sheep is when my neighbor's two lambs got out and began wandering the neighborhood. The lambs were being raised to show at the county fair. The neighbor's poor daughter spent an hour chasing the lambs before another neighbor was able to help her catch one and the other followed the first (I was not of any help. I was watching in case the lambs bolted into the desert. I have an ATV and was planning to help out if necessary).

 

So, what was going on with the first set of sheep?

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the first video the dog is wearing (sp??), which is holding the sheep to the handler. it is generally done with novice dogs with knee knocker sheep-sheep who want to hand out with people! it allows close control of the dog, teaching it it's flanks, away and come by. also allows for teaching proper distance from sheep and allows you to enforce the "lie down". wearing, while not used in open dog competition can be a useful farm chore.

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My *guess* is that video #1 is a kennel club-bred (notice the "Grand Champion") doing an AKC course ("Started B"), and showing just how limited a dog can be that is bred for something other than true work and working ability. Video #2, National Champions Scott Glen and Don, show just what a partnership of an excellent dog and an excellent handler can do.

 

LIsa described it very well in explaining "wearing". But a dog that largely follows along (note that the dog is more interested momentarily in a scent on the ground than the sheep on its "outrun") and seems mostly obedience-controlled may be useful but only in very limited circumstances.

 

Knee-knocker sheep do not give a very good idea of what a dog can do. Their primary use is in starting young pups or dogs brand-new to stock.

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When I posted these two videos I was trying to demonstrate the difference between what AKC breeders consider "herding champions" compared to what the USBCHA (ABCA or CBCA registered dogs) considers a champion. In all fairness I have no idea what level of AKC course it is in the AKC video... Even acknowledging that, I think that people that don't compete or have a strong understanding of stock work and SDTs can see the difference in the way in which the dog moves, relates to it's stock, and works with the handler. There is really no comparison in my opinion.

 

But to answer your question - "knee knockers", "puppy sheep", or "well dogged sheep" are generally used when training young dogs or perhaps even when training a new element to a not young dog (depends on the element). Each of those terms in quotes above, are used to describe sheep that have seen dogs before (usually seen dogs a lot) and are used to being moved by a dog. Well dogged sheep don't generally spook or split apart. They allow a young dog to move them around fairly easily. This allows the handler to "train" the dog and also allows the dog to gain confidence by succeeding in the task (hopefully) without incident or making a mess.

 

What you are seeing in the first video is wearing - as Sue and Lisa described already. What you see in the second video is fetching and driving. There is no wearing in an open level USBHCA course. The only USBHCA level course that has wearing in it is the novice level.

 

Just a side note: even at the novice level (lowest level) of USBCHA trials the novice dogs work the same sheep that the open level (highest level) dogs work - granted usually on the last day of the trial so they are a little more dogged than they were on day one. This is at least true in my experience here in the Midwest. Oh and I am a relatively novice handler for the record. ;)

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Absolutely!

 

The dog in the first video is listed in the video title as a "Grand Champion" which is a conformation title and has nothing to do with winning any AKC "herding" competitions, the way I understand it from a quick perusal of AKC championship designations. A "Herding Champion" has "HC" before its registered name.

 

I may be wrong. All this title stuff is pretty complicated. For example, here is a quintuple "champion" - CH OTCH MACH HC CT VCCH O******* C****** B********** UDX RAE HXAsd HIBd HSBs MXB NAP MJB OJP where you can see the five "championships" in front of the name - conformation, obedience, agility, "herding", and "versatile companion champion" (has "championships" in obedience, agility, and tracking), with all the titles behind the name. Off topic, but I found this amusing in its many layers of "championships" and titles - no wonder it's often referred to as "alphabet soup". (I replaced most of the letters in the name with asterisks. The name was pretty silly...)

 

Back to our regularly-scheduled programming and sorry (not really) for the diversion!

 

When I posted these two videos I was trying to demonstrate the difference between what AKC breeders consider "herding champions" compared to what the USBCHA (ABCA or CBCA registered dogs) considers a champion. In all fairness I have no idea what level of AKC course it is in the AKC video... Even acknowledging that, I think that people that don't compete or have a strong understanding of stock work and SDTs can see the difference in the way in which the dog moves, relates to it's stock, and works with the handler. There is really no comparison in my opinion.

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Except that there is technically no novice level in the USBCHA system. The novice classes are not sanctioned, only Open and Nursery. Local clubs might sanction novice trials held in conjunction with USBCHA trials.

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I only added that because I see more and more people bragging that their dogs have "won and placed in USBCHA trials." When asked, they admit they are running in novice/novice. To people who don't know enough to ask or realize that the USBCHA does not sanction novice trials, it sounds really impressive.

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Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Liz writes, "I see more and more people bragging that their dogs have "won and placed in USBCHA trials." When asked, they admit they are running in novice/novice.'

 

Some years ago a fellow entered my trial who was getting paid as a "herding" instructor and making just that boast. In a letter I suggested that he might be embarrased running against his students, how would Jack/Alasdair/Scott feel about such a humiliation. To my dismay, he thought he could live with that.

 

As a trial host I'm no democrat and he ran in pro-novice that year.

 

Donald McCaig

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My dog is big and floppy when he's training on sheep. He's upright, has a bit of bounce, head level or slightly up, tail down. So I do understand that not all dogs are "stylish" when working. Having said that, the dog in the first video actually looks he's playing or at the least not taking the work very seriously. When I see my own dog do that "rocking horse" kind of run he's playing or being goofy. I've never seen him act or move like that around sheep.

 

I'm a novice to this culture as well and have lots to learn, so I could be wrong, but watching that first video I never felt like the dog was even remotely invested in the work.

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Thank you everyone for the explanations. I made the mistake of watching the Scott Glen and Don video first and was so impressed at everything. I was glued to my computer screen making shooing motions to my family when they bothered me (I fed them dinner, what more could they want)? I watched the other video second and, well, was shocked.

 

Wildflower/Vicki you did a great job of demonstrating real working ability versus show dog ability. In the first video I was wondering if the training of the sheep was being highlighted.

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I don't think that was a mistake at all. By seeing what a world-class handler/dog team could do, you were ready to not be impressed by pretty poor work. That sure beats watching poor work first and thinking that that sort of work is a good standard, and being impressed by it.

 

Thank you everyone for the explanations. I made the mistake of watching the Scott Glen and Don video first and was so impressed at everything. I was glued to my computer screen making shooing motions to my family when they bothered me (I fed them dinner, what more could they want)? I watched the other video second and, well, was shocked.

 

Wildflower/Vicki you did a great job of demonstrating real working ability versus show dog ability. In the first video I was wondering if the training of the sheep was being highlighted.

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Thank you everyone for the explanations. I made the mistake of watching the Scott Glen and Don video first and was so impressed at everything. I was glued to my computer screen making shooing motions to my family when they bothered me (I fed them dinner, what more could they want)? I watched the other video second and, well, was shocked.

 

Wildflower/Vicki you did a great job of demonstrating real working ability versus show dog ability. In the first video I was wondering if the training of the sheep was being highlighted.

 

 

Actually, Scott Glen and Don are a pair of the best examples possible of a top trial handler and his dog! :) So, you got spoilt straight away by seeing that first ... and then seeing a barely-talented, not-at-all-keen, handled-by-obedience-not-instinct KC dog noodling around with totally dog-broke sheep. At least you got to see what the difference is! :P

 

~ Gloria

 

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"Noodling around" - I love it! :lol:

 

Now I really have a way to put pressure on my dogs during training.

 

- Ouit yer noddling around and make a nice flank now! Lie doon! and no noodling around. Come here, no noodling around on the way!

 

If that does not put fear of the handler in them, nothing will :)

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