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"Reputable" Breeder?


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I've been missing in action for a bit, work, heart and life on the farm.

 

My first few Border Collies all lived in a 850 sq ft condo. we would exercise them before work, during lunch (my job was 7 minutes away) and after work and then before bed. we lived next to a huge park so that helped plus classes and lots of outdoor stuff....then we got a house then a couple of years later, Tess got a sheep farm for her second birthday.

 

 

You can make the dog in the living situation work....you just have to adjust and do it. Having the farm in nice and we often let the dogs swim in the ponds or we play games. In addition ot working stock. And in the house we still do toy toss and puzzle games.

 

I just placed a pet border Collie in a pet home, in the city but the guy is super active and does hobby herding. His other dog is quite well adjusted and they do everything together. The pet I placed is very high energy so we did a trial test....he loved her as she could keep up with him.

 

I will be back on the boards more now....life is getting back to a dull roar!

 

 

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Glad to hear from you, Diane!

 

Chene, there are some trials in Washington before Lacamas and Vashon. Memorial Day at MacDonald's in Longbranch, which is near Gig Harbor, Whidbey Island June 21st weekend, and then another at MacDonald's June 27th weekend. I plan to be at the latter two. You can check out when trials are scheduled at this link:

 

http://www.usbcha.com/sheep/upcoming_trials.html

 

Going to trials is by far the best way to meet people who'll know where to find a good breeder near you. I see there are also some trials in Alberta and British Columbia, but I don't have personal experience of those.

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Thanks for the link, but unfortunately although Washington is closeish it's only close while I'm driving to and from home (in Alberta) and not the kind of drive I'd want to make more than once. I'll check out the trials closer by though, thanks.

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  • 4 weeks later...

For anyone who is curious, I asked the breeder why she does not get all her dogs hip-tested and her answer was that from what she knows of the genetics, a dog with an "excellent" score can produce a puppy with only "fair" hips, or a "good" can produce all puppies with "excellent" hips, etc - basically, between the three non-dysplastic ratings, the parents' hips do not necessarily determine the pups. She said since all of her dogs are working dogs and she has known them and their lines, she is confident that none of them are dysplastic (since they are fine working), so it doesn't really matter after that. I know that someone mentioned it is possible that a dog could technically have dysplastic hips but not suffer from it. I'm not sure how common that is, but apart from that her reasoning sounded fairly reasonable (for lack of a better word) to me, provided that what she said about genetics is true. I did a quick google search but didn't find anything for or against it. What are your opinions?

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There is no guarantee. Even with great ratings on the parents. But the odds are better. And because humans don't have xray vision and a dog can be very functional despite bad hips radiographically, rads are helpful.

Which by the way, I just read that they have found a genetic mutation responsible for hd. But I have not read the whole info.

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Yeah I saw something about that (the genetic mutation) when I was looking, but I admit I don't understand the significance of it. As far as the breeder, she says she is planning on getting them all tested soon anyways, because it makes people more comfortable, even if she doesn't care for it. I'm curious, if a parent technically has bad hips but is very functional, can the functionality be passed on to the pup, or just the bad hips? I don't understand exactly what makes a dog functional despite the hips, so I'm not sure if it's something genetic.

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if a parent technically has bad hips but is very functional, can the functionality be passed on to the pup, or just the bad hips? I don't understand exactly what makes a dog functional despite the hips, so I'm not sure if it's something genetic.

 

I don't know the answer to that, but personally I wouldn't want to take a chance on it.

 

The inheritance of HD itself is so little understood; I don't think anyone has a clue why some dogs with bad hips are less affected by it than others.

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I don't know the answer to that, but personally I wouldn't want to take a chance on it.

 

The inheritance of HD itself is so little understood; I don't think anyone has a clue why some dogs with bad hips are less affected by it than others.

Which is why I *check* mine but no OFA. I have a good vet and I'm comfortable with looking at the x-ray. No guarantees either way so I spend my $$ where it counts.

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I have seen trained (or at least partially trained) working dogs that appeared fine while working but were badly dysplastic as diagnosed with radiographs. These dysplastic dogs may not have stayed looking fine through an entire working career; however, breeding decisions are not made towards the end of working careers. One has to wonder if breeding decisions are made late enough into a working career to guarantee a dysplastic dog is never bred when radiographs are not used.

 

OFA has good info on HD and their Breeder's Guide may address the situation relayed to us by chene from the breeder. The OFA's discussion of vertical pedigree analysis is quite good.

 

Note at the top of the Health & Genetics section Cornell offers radiograph consultations.

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For anyone who is curious, I asked the breeder why she does not get all her dogs hip-tested and her answer was that from what she knows of the genetics, a dog with an "excellent" score can produce a puppy with only "fair" hips, or a "good" can produce all puppies with "excellent" hips, etc - basically, between the three non-dysplastic ratings, the parents' hips do not necessarily determine the pups. She said since all of her dogs are working dogs and she has known them and their lines, she is confident that none of them are dysplastic (since they are fine working), so it doesn't really matter after that. I know that someone mentioned it is possible that a dog could technically have dysplastic hips but not suffer from it. I'm not sure how common that is, but apart from that her reasoning sounded fairly reasonable (for lack of a better word) to me, provided that what she said about genetics is true. I did a quick google search but didn't find anything for or against it. What are your opinions?

 

 

 

I have heard the argument that work weeds out unsoundness and undoubtedly there is truth to that. Especially in cases of hill shepherds whose dogs must be fit enough to put in prodigious mileage on all sorts of terrain, sometimes for days at a time.

 

And of course sound dogs can produce unsound pups. My first bitch years ago came from untested parents - before testing was really even a question - who both worked into healthy old age. But she took a bad fall at age 3 and when we had her x-rayed, thinking she'd dislocated a hip, she turned out to be horribly dysplastic. In hindsight, there were signs something was off when she hit about 6 months old: she went through a period of inordinate clumsiness that probably owed to laxity in her hips. But we were packing mules in the Sierras in those days, so my girl logged 15 to 20 or more miles per day going full throttle all over the mountains. Her phenomenal level of fitness held her hindquarters together until she had her accident.

 

So, it is a crap shoot. However, given that the technology exists, I see no reason NOT to have x-rays done, at the very least, on dogs that are intended for breeding. I know a lady with a tremendously fit and athletic young bitch from prominent working lines, whose parents were never tested because they have always been sound, themselves. However, she recently had her bitch x-rayed because she planned to breed her ... and there it was, one dysplastic hip.

 

This bitch works like a dervish, never has shown a moment's lameness, has speed and endurance out of this world. However ... now that the HD is known, we can see it just subtly in the way she moves. Time will tell if she'll develop lameness later, but if they had gone ahead and bred her now, based on her current state of apparent physical health, would she have passed that HD on to any of her pups? Was HD in fact lurking in either of the untested-yet-still-sound parents? Or maybe the grandparents?

 

That's where I'm not sure today's 'soundness-by-performance' rule of thumb is always a safe measure. Many or most border collies today aren't putting in the sheer mileage the old hill dogs did, and even if they are ... well, if not for my girl's accident, who knows how long she would have gone before ever showing real lameness. It would be easy to miss mild or hidden HD in the first 4 or 5 years of a dog's working life, and in breeding them without hip testing, potentially pass on HD. HD that wouldn't show clinical signs in the parents until an older age, long after the pups were grown.

 

So, to me, it's worth it to have the genetic odds a little bit more in my favor, by buying a pup from parents who were known and tested to be free of HD, and if possible, whose grandparents have also been tested. My thoughts, anyhow. There is such a very lot of heartache in finding out one's beautiful dog is going to go early lame.

 

~ Gloria

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I wish it was this easy....

 

just because the lines (that she knows of) is not dysplastic, doesnt mean all the pups will not be dysplastic. You can get good hips from bad hip parents or bad hips from good hip parents. As a good breeder you should do the hips and let the buyer be aware of the status. I respect a breeder who is up front if one of the parents have a hip issues, then it is my judgement call to buy that pup or not.

 

But I have not much respect for a breeder who hids the fact that one of the parents has HD or claims that since there isnt any HD in the lines, that the pups will not have it.

 

 

 

 

..... She said since all of her dogs are working dogs and she has known them and their lines, she is confident that none of them are dysplastic (since they are fine working), so it doesn't really matter after that.....

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