GentleLake Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Uncle William Joneswith Ci Glas I was doing an internet search trying to locate a friend I've lost touch with who lives in Wales. While searching, I came across a mention of an Aled Owen who lives in the same town she does. It turns out it's not the same Aled Owen as the well known sheepdog trialer, but I saw this interesting picture on his (the trialer's) web page. It's Owen's uncle, who "won the famous Llangollen sheepdog trial in 1899 with Ci Glas", a clearly merle sheepdog. I've always found it interesting that there's such a prejudice among working sheepdog folks against merles. (No, I'm not talking about contemporary color breeders; I totally agree with not selecting for color over working ability.) Obviously, this has not always been the case, at least not in Wales. When I met him, oh, 20+ years ago, H. Glyn Jones, also from northern Wales, told me that there were still working merle collies to be found in Wales. I guess I don't really have much of a point to make in this post. I just found it interesting to find a picture of a merle trial winner form 115 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Neat photo! Look at all those cups! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Yeah. Kinda contradicts what I'd heard so many times when I had a (working) merle that "merles can't work." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmbc Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 it is hard to tell from this picture is this dog is actually a Merle. looks like he could just have heavy ticking. it's a really cool picture, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 I'm not usually a betting person, but I'd be willing to bet money I don't have that this is a merle and not a heavily ticked dog. Ticking produces smaller spots, and heavy ticking an almost roan-like appearance. The spots on this dog are large and patchy, and it really looks to me like there's a difference between the white on the chest and blaze and the merle on the shoulder and the rest of the face. I could be wring, of course, but I really think it's a merle. I may have to e-mail Aled and ask him, just to satisfy my curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 That is really cool. I'm not really into merles all that much, but since I do happen to own one who was, to the best of my knowledge, bred for the purpose of working stock, I find it to be particularly interesting. If you get more info, GentleLake, please do share! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 That photo of Ci Glas inspired me to make a foster boy his name-sake. My (now ex-)foster was also a blue merle. As for whether the dog in the photo was actually a merle, it's not easy to tell, but "Ci Glas" literally translated means blue dog, so I would assume that besides the ticking, there were patches of merle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 The color pattern is interesting and I could not say decisively if this particular dog is a merle but the light splotches behind the shoulders make me think it possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Why the fascination with merle coloration, folks? We should feel lucky that the merle gene is not common in border collies, and we should dearly hope it stays that way. Google "lethal white aussies" if you don't believe me. Have a good look at the images. Those poor dogs with microphthalmia, blindness, deafness. It's really sad. Or look at the Australian Shepherd rescue sites and check out the proportion of deaf or visually impaired dogs, who of course are the ones who spend the most time waiting to be adopted. It's easy enough to say, well, if you don't breed two merles together, there will be no problem. But I have two objections to this. (1) "Whoops" litters are way more common than we like to admit. After all, we're talking about dogs here. (2) I'm not convinced that heterozygous Mm dogs don't have some impairment. In the paper that reported the genetic basis of the merle trait, the authors claim that there is impairment in Mm dogs. I haven't tracked down the papers that the authors cite, so I can't speak to them. And even if there isn't a lot of, or any, impairment in Mm dogs, see (1). If there are a lot of merles around, there WILL end up being blind and deaf puppies. Dogs having Mm and MM genotypes typically have blue eyes and often exhibit a wide range of auditory and ophthalmologic abnormalities (3). Reetz et al. (4) studied the auditory capacity of Dachshunds and found that 54.6% of MM and 36.8% of Mm dogs had auditory dysfunction, ranging from mild to severe deafness. All control dogs (mm) in the study had normal hearing. Klinckmann et al. (5, 6) conducted ophthalmologic studies with three groups of Dachshunds (MM, Mm, and mm) and found that merles and double merles had significantly greater frequencies of ocular abnormalities, including increased intraocular pressure and ametropic eyes. Microphthalmia and colobomas are well described in merle and double merle Dachshunds and Australian Shepherds (3, 7, 8). In all breeds, the double merle genotype can be sublethal and is associated with multiple abnormalities of the skeletal, cardiac, and reproductive systems (3, 9, 10). For these reasons, merle-to-merle breedings are strongly discouraged (9). http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/ClarkPNASMerle.pdf We should hope that the merle trait remains uncommon in border collies. I would like to see it disappear. It's not the dog. It's only a color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 I think that's a bit of an over-reaction, Jan. No one is advocating either breeding for merle coloration or encouraging an interest in merles. This is a historic photo with an interesting comment by an old-time Welsh handler. It's not promoting the merle coloration or breeding, as far as I can see. I would not mind in the least if the merle coloration was to be gone in Border Collies. I don't know if the merle gene causes issues in one breed and not another or in all breeds. I am disheartened to see so many new people here with their "blue-eyed merle" pup they got from some breeder (the probability of that pup coming from what we would regard as a responsible or good breeder is not real likely at all). But I don't think the posting of a historical photo of interest deserves quite that much reaction, although I know it is very well-meant - and I do appreciate your posting that informative and interesting link. And maybe I'm over-reacting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 I think that's a bit of an over-reaction, Jan. No one is advocating either breeding for merle coloration or encouraging an interest in merles. This is a historic photo with an interesting comment by an old-time Welsh handler. It's not promoting the merle coloration or breeding, as far as I can see. Very nicely put, Sue. I am interested for the historic aspect, and because I happen to live with one. I'm not going to go out and buy a merle (although I would not rule out adopting another from rescue in the far away future if, as happened in Dean's case, the dog I am looking for in rescue happens to be one), I am not advocating their breeding. I simply find it extremely interesting, both from a historical and personal perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 What my dull brain seems to get out of this fascinating (and over my mental paygrade) paper is that there is a genetic marker associated in dogs with the merle coloration. In humans, there is a gene important for "mammalian pigmentation" located in a similar area. That gene was evaluated as being involved in merle patterning. Within that gene (an "insertion") was present that is associated with the merle pattern. And then, within that insertion, there could be "deletions" that would allow for normal pigmentation. So, it sounds to me like there is a gene associated with the merle coloration. Within that gene, there is an "insertion" that is likely responsible for the merle coloration. Yet within that insertion, there can be a "deletion" that allows for normal pigmentation. So, if I'm understanding this right (and there is absolutely no guarantee that I am) you could have merle coloration (the SILV gene, which contains the insertion actually responsible for the merle coloration) with abnormal eye/ear pigmentation (and therefore abnormalities of sight and hearing) OR you could have merle coloration (the SILV gene, including the insertion that actually causes the coloration, along with deletions that allow for normal pigmentation) with normal eye/ear pigmentation (and therefore presumably normal sight and hearing). I did not find it in the article but I wonder what is the occurrence of both cases, merle with normal eye/ear pigmentation and function versus merle with abnormal eye/ear pigmentation and function. And what constitutes abnormal pigmentation? I understand in the ear that it is absence of pigmentation. In the eye, what is it? Blue coloration? Split coloration? The funny little squiggles you can find in some eyes that look like little threads trapped in the iris? Thank you, Jan, for the link - this is very interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 These dogs (Labrador Retrievers) are not merles, but chimera. (Chimerae?) "Veterinarians at the Texas A&M Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital are now running a series of tests, which they hope will help them determine if Bull, a Labrador that is half black and half yellow, is a chimera. Specialists explain that a chimera is the result of a rare genetic mutation. It is a creature that, strictly genetically speaking, is actually two animals, Daily Mail reports. A chimera is born when two twins merge while still inside the mother's womb, leading to the formation of just one offspring. Cells from one embryo form some organs, and cells from the second develop into other body parts. The organs and body parts sport the DNA of the embryos from which they have evolved. This is why specialists refer to a chimera as two animals in one. In Greek mythology, the chimera was a hybrid creature that had the front of a lion and the back of a goat. It also had a snake tail, and sported the mane of a lion despite being a female." Here's a couple more: Reckon it's possible that Ci Glas was a chimera? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 While it is technically possible, given the fact that merle Border Collies aren't nearly as rare as that, the dog being a merle seems far more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Oh, I'm sure I'm overreacting, Sue. I do have a strong opinion on breeding merle dogs, so it kind of gets my back up when there seems to be a fascination with that coloration. My opinion about breeding in no way means I don't like anyone's particular dog who happens to be merle!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Having had Border Collies for over 30 years, yes, merles have always existed. Many of the merles I saw years ago were quite tough dogs but had working ability none the less. The problems with merles (other than health issues) arose when people started breeding FOR the colouration, and not for work. Now days few merles have good ability. Fewer are bred for working ability too. The last one I trained, was far more like training an Aussie than a well bred BC (and it had an imported sire so it HAD to be good, right <sarcasm>) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Definitely a merle. I'm sure that the other rare colors were occasionally kept and used as well. There is a shepherdess in the UK who has merles. She used to post a lot on the working sheepdog list. What strikes me most is that the merle gene is dominant, so if people were using them more then I'd expect there to be greater numbers in the population. There are two possible explanations: either the prejudice against the color is so strong that working collie folks still generally won't choose one of out a litter (same with mostly white dog) or the working merles out there aren't impressing anyone enough for them to either take a pup or breed from them. It's probably combination of the two. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 One other explanation, with regards to the shepherdess who produces a *lot* of merles and "color" pups, is that her market seems to be largely the pet/sport market rather than the true working dog market, even though she does seem to have used some very nice lines in her breeding program. Edited - This is not the person Julie was referring to. This is another who does produce a lot of pups and a lot of color, even though she does have some very fine dogs/bitches in her lines. Her market, in my experience, is pet and performance homes largely, and maybe hobbyists as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Sue, I'm not talking about the person you're thinking of. The person I'm referring to is Laura at Corrie Dhu. I have no idea of her breeding practices, number of litters, etc. What I know of her is from her posts on the working sheepdog list (from ages ago). Back then, she was shepherding and had merles--I don't even know what she's doing or has now. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysfarm Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 well, she has a site that I just got caught on for 20 minutes. Whether she 's still active or not is vague but she has the iron fist in a velvet glove approach that speaks to a "dogs first" approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Oh my goodness!! I have never seen another dog that looks this much like Dean!! Not just in physical appearance but postures and expression! The expression especially!! I love it!! http://www.corriedhu.co.uk/Swift.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Sue, I'm not talking about the person you're thinking of. The person I'm referring to is Laura at Corrie Dhu. I have no idea of her breeding practices, number of litters, etc. What I know of her is from her posts on the working sheepdog list (from ages ago). Back then, she was shepherding and had merles--I don't even know what she's doing or has now. J. I see her on Sheepdog-L at times. Thank you for clarifying that as I thought you were referring to someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Just curious about this, I have a plain 'ole black and white collie. Except maybe for his mismatch eyes, one is blue. Does this mean he's a dog "of color"? I don't want to get into how I got him other then shame on me, I didn't/don't know much about his parents besides what's on his pedigree. But do know there were two blue merles in his litter. Does this mean the black and whites in his litter also carry the merle gene? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 He might be a cryptic merle, but it's more likely that he just has blue eyes. Border Collies of any color can have blue eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 Merle is dominant, correct? So if your dog isn't a merle (cryptic or not), it doesn't carry the merle gene. ETA: Oh, duh. Of course merle is dominant. Otherwise, every merle would be a "double merle." Answered my own question. Unlike red, which is recessive, and can "hide" for generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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