agility confusion

[Shawna]

We just started agility again. I've only taken one full set of classes before and half a set the last time(the dogs came down with some weird catchy, sneezy thing and we had to quit). This is the third set of classes for me and the third instructor. Being a secluded kind of area none of these women have done extensive agility classes themselves or have competed and have been quite up front about letting me know they aren't experts.

 

That said here is the problem - my first instructor was always telling me to make the dog I had at the time go very slow. She said speeding her up later would be easy. Now I'm being told with Darcy to let her go as fast as she wants and worry about fine tuning later.

 

So who is right? I myself think that slow and steady, building up speed later is more the way to go but then I don't know a thing about agility!

[Tassie]

No expert here, Shawna, but here?s my 2 cents worth. I?m just finishing a 16 week beginner class with my little bitch that our'experts' say is going to be an awesome agility dog if I don't mess her up. We tend to work on one or two obstacles or skills at a time so speed is not such a consideration. On the contact obstacles, most instructors I know concentrate on the end first ? either stopping right on the bottom of the obstacle, or 2 on/2 off ? and then for very fast dogs, also getting a stop at the top of the A frame or on the top of the dog walk to give time to catch up(!!). Our present instructor is really emphasizing clear handling from us, and developing the ability to work the dog at a distance and send the dog on ahead, by showing the path you want the dog to take. We do this with small sequences. Doing this, as long as the dog is paying attention, and as long as the handler calls the next obstacle as the dog is taking the previous one (e.g. we might call the weave as the dog is just coming out of the tunnel), then it?s not necessary to slow the dog down.

 

I guess a lot depends on the dog ? some dogs don?t mind being slowed down, but others really, really don?t like it.

 

Did any of this make sense? I?m sure the agility competitors here will have better advice. I?m going on my learning experiences with a very fast dog that I couldn?t slow down unless I put a ton of bricks on her back ? so I just have to try to be enough handler for her. Luckily she?s very attentive ? but also very demanding ? she really needs me to give early and clear directions, and be very careful where my shoulders are pointing, and what I?m doing with my arms.

[Rave]

I teach the top level agility classes at my training school, and by the time some of these dogs get to me, they've been demotivated and slowed down significantly and we work hard trying to speed the dogs back up. It takes a lot of work from the handler to teach these dogs it's OK to go fast. I'd much rather have students work on learning to handle their fast dog than to teach them to go slow...it's easier to just work on the owner's handling and timing. yes it's harder for a beginning handler to learn how to handle a dog running Mach 2, but it'll be easier in the long run once you do put it all together (and the dog will be much happier too!).

 

Another problem with some dogs who haven't been taught how to do things at speed, when they get to showing and the handlers' nerves crop up, the dogs speed up and can't perform as well because they haven't been taught to handle themselves over the equipment in a fast manner...hitting the contacts and keeping bars up is harder the faster the dog goes. So even if you're doing just one obstacle, rev the dog up and do the obstacle FAST.

 

Tassie - About teaching a stop in the middle of a contact behavior for fast dogs, I strongly suggest you reconsider that. Instead teach the dog how to do independent completion of the contact end behavior correctly (i.e. without you standing there), and you can "catch up" there at the end. Teaching a stop in the middle is just another way of teaching the dog to do the equipment slowly. I run moderate to fast dogs...I teach my dogs to run at a distance and how to complete an obstacle without me, the only "stops" we have are at the end of contacts. If I can keep up with supersonic Wick this way, I know it works!

 

Happy Trialling,

Laura

[Shawna]

Okay, so letting her go at her own (dizzying) pace is good then.

 

 

Instead teach the dog how to do independent completion of the contact end behavior correctly (i.e. without you standing there), and you can "catch up" there at the end. Teaching a stop in the middle is just another way of teaching the dog to do the equipment slowly. I run moderate to fast dogs...I teach my dogs to run at a distance and how to complete an obstacle without me, the only "stops" we have are at the end of contacts.

So what I'm hearing is, let her run the equiptment as fast as she likes, but get her to come to a full stop when her feet hit the dirt on the other side in order to teach her to end the equiptment properly. Is this right?

[Rave]

Correct.

Susan Garrett's stair method works well in teaching a 2on/2off behavior.

[Rave]

another thing...teach speed/confidence on low equipment first. Letting them run full out over full size equipment when they might not know where their back feet are can be risky. Better to start low or go back to low if you're working on speed.

[Shawna]

Thanks a bunch. My kids also have dogs in the class (shelties) so I'm sure I'll be back with more questions later.

[Tomster]

Hi all!

 

I've been reading these boards for quite some time now, but my last and only post is now months away (had some questions about herding).

 

I have a 2 year old male BC, my girlfriend competes with him in agility class 2 now. As our national championship (we're from Slovenia, Europe) is quite competitive and of good quality (our nat. Large team was third in the World Ch. in Germany two years ago, our Silvija Trkman is regning World Champion in Medium), i can say, that all instructors that i know of tend to let the dogs "loose" at early stages of training. What i mean with that is, that they don't stop or slow the dogs down, since fine tuning on contacts or tightenning the bends, can all be done at a later date. The most important thing is, that the dog and handler get the feeling of the agility field and of the obstacles, and that they have FUN! Going through this kind of training, those who want to compete, go on and work on things, that need more attention, those, who want to do agility for fun only, can do so without beeing "tormented" with too many details.

 

Another thing, that i could whitness during this one year of agility is, that speeding up a dog, once it has been slowed for a conciderable amount of time, is far more difficult than vice-versa.

 

In my oppinion, fast dogs should not be slowed down, instead, the handler should work on his/her handling and how to get most of the combination dog/handler. The slower dogs, that are confident and don't make mistakes on obsticles, should be encouraged to go faster. Of course, allways keeping in mind, that time is less important than faults at an agility trial.

 

Hope anything i wrote makes sence :confused:

 

Have a nice day (or night, wherever you are),

 

Tomaz!

[Tassie]

it's harder for a beginning handler to learn how to handle a dog running Mach 2

Amen to that! Especially when the handler is old enough to know better ? as in post (early) retirement age! I have to go to aerobics and try to do lots of fast walking etc not just for me, but to be able to keep up with the dogs!

 

Thanks for that tip about the contact obstacles, Laura. We?ll just have to work harder on getting the stop at the end. Our instructor was emphasizing that the other day. Can you provide more info about ?Susan Garret?s stair method??

 

We do still only train on the low heights. I figure it?s more important for me to try to get my handling right (or at least closer to right) and get her doing things accurately before we move to her height. I?m aiming at trialling, but not in a rush. She?s only 2 and a bit, so we?ve got a bit of time up our sleeves. In the meantime, we?re having a blast learning. (Although I think she likes her sheep lessons and practice even better!)

 

Hey Tomaz - nice to hear from you. Isn't it magic how the dogs bring people from different parts of the world together.

[Rave]

Tassie,

Do you get Clean Run magazine? Susan Garrett did a write-up in there about it last year. If not, I can try to scan the article and send it to you?

[Shawna]

I would be interested in that article as well, if that's not a problem.

 

Barb, I'm not near retirement age yet and I can't hope to keep up with my dog! I'm still trying to figure out the point of my body posture and hand signals when she's always so far ahead of me. But then maybe in that case it's a good thing she's so fast since I'm feeling very uncoordinated and can't seem to get it all together yet.

 

Tomaz, nice to meet you, and thanks for the info.

[airbear]

Here's a quick and dirty summary, from the Dogpatch website. I trained Wick's contact behaviour entirely on my front steps, and it's amazing how well it transferred. She can run as fast over the obstacle as she wants, but she has to give me a nice stop, with her back feet on the equipment, her front feet on the ground, and her nose to the ground and pointing straight ahead.

 

The important thing with doing this kind of contact training is that you have very clear criteria or the behaviour breaks down. For exaple, if Wick does her stop at the end of the DW but slides off...we do it again. That way, she knows there is only one way to perform the obstacle.

 

Here's Susan's abbridged stair training method.

 

-------

The clicker can be an effective method of backchaining contacts for fast and reliable performance. The dog is first taught to touch the target on the ground. You simply drop it in front of him and c/t when the dog looks at it/lowers his head/touches it --in a normal shaping progression. Once the dog reliably touches the target, go for a twofer--that is do not click until he hits it twice (be patient). From there you can add your "target" cue or command as long as you are sure the dog is going to go and touch the target. Only say it once and wait. Once he will touch it on cue, stop reinforcing him if he touches it without a cue or command--this is how you gain stimulus control. You can now move the target to different rooms of the house; changing locations helps make the behaviour stronger.

 

Then put the target at the end of a flight of stairs to mimic the angles of a contact obstacle. You start the dog from the last stair so he only has to go a very short distance to touch the target--have the target far enough out in front of the dog so he has to put his front feet on the floor to reach the target but not so far that he lets his back feet come off the stairs. Backchain on the stairs until you have the dog taking up his contact position from the top of the flight of stairs, on cue. If you really want a laugh, once this behaviour is learned, ring the door bell before you say "target" (providing you have stairs near the door). If you keep preceding your cue target with the ringing of the door bell you will teach the dog that both signals mean target- kind of like having a signal and voice command for the same behaviour. If you don't want to do the door bell thing (it is optional but very amusing when instead of jumping all over visitors you have three dogs in their contact position at the bottom of a flight of stairs) move the target now to the bottom of your contact obstacle. Now backchain again the same way you did on the stairs, but this time start one wrung up from the ground on a very low A Frame (3 foot apex).

 

Set a table beside the A Frame for the dog to climb up on so you don't have to pick the dog up to get him at the bottom the the A Frame. Hold the dog's collar, get him all hyped up and say "target" to which he will spring forward to touch his nose to the target. Nose is better than feet, as when you have the dog use his feet he sometimes leaps at the target and sends it flying--which also conditions a little jump when he hears the word "target". You don't want him to jump at the target as he may end up jumping over the contact zone.

(Susan Garrett)

[Rave]

Here's a pic of my Wick at her first trial demonstrating 2o/2o. She was taught with the stair method and [knock on wood] has very reliable and fast contacts. She's looking back at me b/c I'm about 20' feet away flipping her into that orange tunnel you can see a bit of.

 

-Laura

 

 

[Betsy]

Can someone tell me what "backchain" means?

 

-Betsy

[Rave]

Basically, teach the last thing first so they're always going to something more familiar. If you want to teach a dog his ABC's by backchaining, you would start with Z.... Z, YZ, XYZ, WXYZ, VWXYZ, UVWXYZ, TUVWXYZ, etc... Works well with 2o/2o contacts because you teach the most important component first (stop at end) and are constantly reinforcing it as you move back and add distance and speed approaching it.

 

Clear as mud?

 

-Laura

[airbear]

I realized that I didn't answer the first post re: speed versus control. Speed, definitely speed (and enthusiasm). My Bear dog isn't naturally speedy, and he was taught to be careful. He's almost always clean, and usually over time. It's very difficult to get the speed back once the dog learns that accuracy is paramount.

 

Also, if a dog is a true speed demon, asking him/her to slow down won't work. The dog will engage in frustration behaviours, such as spinning, nipping, screaming, and other things that are just not conducive to running a clean, controlled course.

 

Wick has been encouraged to go full-out from the first day of training. I get her revved before we run with a good game of tug, even though she has loads of drive to begin with. She can work at a distance if need be, but I really enjoy running full-out with her. At first, I didn't think I could keep up (her top speed so far is 8 yards per second (YPS) on a tunnelers course, 7 YPS on a jumpers course) but if I get my commands out well in advance, and the stars are aligned, well, it feels pretty good.

 

In response to Laura's Wick, here's my Wick :

 

Shawna, where in BC are you? My friends just moved to Kamloops, and Mary is an awesome agility teacher who has been trialling for more than 6 years.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Shawna:

I'm still trying to figure out the point of my body posture and hand signals when she's always so far ahead of me.

She still feeds off of it and reacts to it. One of my dogs has a HUGE bubble and is uber sensitive to the way I move, no matter where on the course he is to be found. It's like we are connected with strings or something.

 

The other is a more rough and tumble fellow, and is not as sensitive, but my timing has to be good or he overrruns. Tweed is very fast on the course, and it has been hard to learn to adjust to his speed. The best thing I can hope for is too drill object recognition into him so that I can direct him verbally.

 

RDM

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

Here's a pic of my Wick at her first trial demonstrating 2o/2o. She was taught with the stair method and [knock on wood] has very reliable and fast contacts.

Gorgeous shot!

 

The stair method has not worked for us. Tweed very clearly tells me that he knows the difference between stairs and an A-Frame. I eventually resorted to throwing myself in front of him and body blocking him so he had to stop on command. He doesn't have a 2o/2o, but he is stopping in the yellow now. My goal over the next few months is to bring it down to the bottom of the obstacle.

 

RDM

[Northof49]

Tweed is very fast on the course, and it has been hard to learn to adjust to his speed. The best thing I can hope for is too drill object recognition into him so that I can direct him verbally.

_________________________________________________

 

Obstacle discimination isn't hard to teach at all, BUT it is very time comsuming, and not conducive to classes where there are several students. (It is really hard to take several people and dogs and have them just send their dog out a tunnel for a whole class. That's not their idea of an agility class). Most people can't be bothered to take the time required. It basically is an ongoing thing for the first couple of years of your dog's training.

 

Obstacle discrimination was a big part of training when I started out competing in 1991 (Oh my - has it really been that long?), but in the last 5 - 8 years fallen by the wayside and considered outdated as handling as evolved.

 

However, for my friend and I, it still remains one of our important foundations in our training. We are getting more and more people interested in teaching their dogs. It certainly pays off big time in Snooker and Gamblers. In standard titling, it eliminates those "Aframe/Tunnel traps, Tunnel wrapped around the table, etc.

[Shawna]

We'll keep working on my body and arms and try to get co-ordinated.

 

Thanks for explaining the stair method. I'll give that a try. I think I'll save RDM's body throw as a last resort, but I'm afraid I just may have to go there.

 

Kristi, I'm afraid I'm more than two hours east of Kamloops, but thanks anyway.

[Rave]

RDM, you might try using a harness to help you stop the dog at the end of the contact. I've done this with a couple students who wanted to retrain and it's worked well with them (one BC, one std. poodle)...they've both had 100% success rate at trials after re-training. The harness (and resistance at the stop point) were enough to remind the dog what it had learned on the stairs (along with a target to focus on).

[Tassie]

Wow ? been out working (substitute teaching at my last school) today ? and I come home and there?s all this good advice on the thread. Thank you so much to all you guys who have taken the trouble to post. I?m full of enthusiasm now for getting out to train ? pity the weather forecast is dire ? wind, rain, some snow to low levels ? and our training is all outdoors. Still, maybe Sunday will be OK. No stairs in my house, but I should be able to rig something up. My guys sort of know targets anyway, and the clicker is a good idea. I already use it to mark a successful weave run, so I?ll try it for the contacts.

 

Laura, thanks for the Clean Run magazine tip ? I?ll ask around and see if any of my agility friends get it. And Kristi, thanks for the summary.

 

We'll keep working on my body and arms and try to get co-ordinated.

Heheh. Me too, Shawna. The good thing is it works for herding as well. Both trainers are saying ? keep your other arm tucked in ? use your body ? where are your shoulders pointing ? etc.etc.

[border_collie_crazy]

lol I would also say speed, Happy has been to many classes and they all say slow down, I am sorry but happy is known as the "speed demon" for a reason lol she already spins and runs all over on the coarse because I cant keep up, and she was trained to go slow first so she runs all over regularly going nuts until she finds me, and I can send her over the next obstical, this results in a lot of horrable runs! lol she is learning to work from a distance though I just have to shout her commands at the top of my lungs