A quewtion related to intact dogs.

[Camden's Mom]

I had Celt neutered at six months, thinking it was best. Never again will I do that early on.

 

Same here. I wish I had read some of the linked articles in this thread before making the decision to have Camden neutered at five months. To be perfectly honest, I had him neutered because everything I read said that's just what you do. I decided to do it early to avoid unwanted behaviors from surfacing as he entered sexual maturity (another suggestion I read over and over). In retrospect, it's quite surprising that in all of my research I never came across the legitimate arguments against neutering... or at least against neutering at such a young age. My vet also didn't advise for or against it, we just set up the appointment and it was done.

 

Now that he's been diagnosed with hip dysplasia I really, really wish I had waited. Who knows if it would've made a difference, but some of the research on early neutering and joint health is very compelling. Oh well, I know a lot more now then I did then, so live and learn and keep keeping on.

[mum24dog]

According to the information I've read (and linked some of above), that's true for females, but the balance in males tips slightly in favor of leaving them intact.

 

 

You must be reading something different from pretty much everything I've read that isn't anti neutering based.

 

There are two huge reasons to spay bitches, both potentially fatal and with a high enough incidence to be a real cause for concern in those left entire - mammary tumours and pyometra.

 

Any proven reasons arguing against are of much lower risk or effect..

[highway61]

According to the information I've read (and linked some of above), that's true for females, but the balance in males tips slightly in favor of leaving them intact.

 

Aside from castrating too soon, I still haven't seen the tip in balance leaning toward leaving boys intact. Admittedly, over the years I've been conditioned to think all boys and girls at some point in time should be neutered or spayed (otherwise you're just not a responsible pet owner).

 

This has been a great conversation, eye opeining and has me re-thinking the pre-decision I made (by default) when I first got my current pup. He's still only 11 months and pretty well behaved (no humping) so all is well so far. I know doggy day cares usually require dogs to be altered but I haven't yet started him in agility. Do the they typically have any restrictions on intact males?

[mum24dog]

Studies indicate (if I remember correctly) more joint and structural issues with early neutering.

 

 

But "more" doesn't necessarily mean much in practical terms.

 

i have an 8 year old collie with mild HD but no other joint issues (just checked by the ortho specialist), He was castrated at 8 months and is of totally unknown breeding. Do I have any evidence to suggest that his HD is connected to when he was neutered? None at all.

 

Do I have any evidence that my collie x had an ACL rupture at 12 because he was also neutered at 8 months? No, and neither does anyone else..Stuff happens but people are always looking for someone or something to blame.

 

I don't know many entire dogs but some of the ones I do know have more joint problems than mine. I wouldn't like to guess why.

[d112358]

This has been a great conversation, eye opeining and has me re-thinking the pre-decision I made (by default) when I first got my current pup. He's still only 11 months and pretty well behaved (no humping) so all is well so far. I know doggy day cares usually require dogs to be altered but I haven't yet started him in agility. Do the they typically have any restrictions on intact males?

 

Nothing specific to intact males. Bitches in heat aren't allowed to run in most (all?) venues. I haven't heard of any agility classes that don't allow intact dogs.

[GentleLake]

Aside from castrating too soon, I still haven't seen the tip in balance leaning toward leaving boys intact.

 

Did you read any of the links provided earlier?

 

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf (didn't link in the original because of a missing "h" in the address)

 

http://news.ucdavis.....lasso?id=10498

 

Both are reasonable sources.

[GentleLake]

i have an 8 year old collie with mild HD but no other joint issues (just checked by the ortho specialist), He was castrated at 8 months and is of totally unknown breeding. Do I have any evidence to suggest that his HD is connected to when he was neutered? None at all.

 

Do I have any evidence that my collie x had an ACL rupture at 12 because he was also neutered at 8 months? No, and neither does anyone else..Stuff happens but people are always looking for someone or something to blame.

 

 

One dog isn't going to prove or disprove anything. It's looking at statistics over time and numbers. And the studies seem to show that there are more of these types of problems in neutered males than in intact ones.

 

I try to weigh the evidence and do what I think is best for my dogs. What I'm reading tells me not to neuter another male dog in the future if I have any control over it, so that I can give him the best chance of avoiding these problems.

 

ETA: I would seriously consider vasetomy, though.

[Sue R]

But "more" doesn't necessarily mean much in practical terms.

 

i have an 8 year old collie with mild HD but no other joint issues (just checked by the ortho specialist), He was castrated at 8 months and is of totally unknown breeding. Do I have any evidence to suggest that his HD is connected to when he was neutered? None at all.

 

Do I have any evidence that my collie x had an ACL rupture at 12 because he was also neutered at 8 months? No, and neither does anyone else..Stuff happens but people are always looking for someone or something to blame.

 

I don't know many entire dogs but some of the ones I do know have more joint problems than mine. I wouldn't like to guess why.

I'm not sure why you jumped all over this sentence from my post. A Google search will provide quite a number of scientific articles that indicate that *early* neutering, particularly in male dogs, is associated with increased (and significant) risk of certain orthopedic problems - including hip dysplasia, CCL tears (often referred to as ACL tears), patella luxation, and other issues that are apparently linked to the different bone growth and growth plate closing that accompanies early neutering.

 

The evidence seems to indicate that it's not just a "guess" that early neutering can contribute to the incidence of certain problems. The science works over a population of animals and, in this case, may indicate absolutely nothing to do with a single animal. But, over the population, it seems indicative that early neutering does have an adverse effect.

 

Roxanne's link (http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf) includes a great number of studies relating to this issue, with references.

 

That said, not neutering in combination with irresponsible pet ownership does definitely have a negative effect.

[Shetlander]

A Google search will provide quite a number of scientific articles that indicate that *early* neutering, particularly in male dogs, is associated with increased (and significant) risk of certain orthopedic problems - including hip dysplasia, CCL tears (often referred to as ACL tears), patella luxation, and other issues that are apparently linked to the different bone growth and growth plate closing that accompanies early neutering

 

What is considered "early" neutering? Before the growth plates close or before a certain age?

[highway61]

Did you read any of the links provided earlier?

 

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf (didn't link in the original because of a missing "h" in the address)

 

http://news.ucdavis.....lasso?id=10498

 

Both are reasonable sources.

 

Did you? The PDF is kind of a mixed bag as the study includes neuter and spay. Omitting all the female/spay study, what I got from it are there are many pros and cons but again, removing castration of young dogs don't see the weight move too much in balance.

 

Here's some excerpts I've cherry picked:

 

Prostate Cancer:

This needs to be put in perspective. Unlike the situation in humans, prostate cancer is uncommon in dogs. Given an incidence of prostate cancer in dogs of less than 0.6% from necropsy studies7, it is difficult to see that the risk of prostate cancer should factor heavily into most neutering decisions. There is evidence for an increased risk of prostate cancer in at least one breed (Bouviers)5, though very little data so far to guide us in regards to other breeds.

Testicular Cancer

In summary, though it may be the most common reason why many advocate neutering young male dogs,

the risk from life threatening testicular cancer is sufficiently low that neutering most male dogs to prevent it is

difficult to justify.

Diabetes

Some data indicate that neutering doubles the risk of diabetes in male dogs, but other data showed no

significant change in diabetes risk with neutering33. In the same studies, no association was found between

spaying and the risk of diabetes.

Urinary Tract Cancer (Bladder and Urethra Cancers)

An age-matched retrospective study found that spay/neuter dogs were two times more likely to develop

lower urinary tract tumors (bladder or urethra) compared to intact dogs23. These tumors are nearly always

malignant, but are infrequent, accounting for less than 1% of canine tumors. So this risk is unlikely to weigh

heavily on spay/neuter decisions.

Perianal Fistulas

Male dogs are twice as likely to develop perianal fistulas as females, and spay/neutered dogs have a

decreased risk compared to intact dogs.

Non-cancerous Disorders of the Prostate Gland

The incidence of benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH, enlarged prostate) increases with age in intact male dogs, and occurs in more than 80% of intact male dogs older than the age of 5 years47. Most cases of BPH cause no problems, but in some cases the dog will have difficulty defecating or urinating. Neutering will prevent BPH. If neutering is done after the prostate has become enlarged, the enlarged prostate will shrink relatively quickly. BPH is linked to other problems of the prostate gland, including infections, abscesses, and cysts, which can

sometimes have serious consequences.

The conclusion sections says:

 

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs to prevent future

health problems, especially immature male dogs. The number of health problems associated with neutering

may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

May exceed? It's a good study but nothing too conclusive to prove the risks of neutering your dog outweigh the health benefits associated.

[Camden's Mom]

Unless I'm reading the articles wrong, it seems the conclusion of most of these studies is that *early* spay and neuter (before 18 - 24 months?) can contribute to a lot of these health risks.

I have to confess that I'm not understanding the argument against spaying/neutering once the dog is fully grown (aside from the risks involved with any surgery). So, if one has no plans to breed the animal, why keep it intact once it's finished growing?

[highway61]

 

Did you? The PDF is kind of a mixed bag as the study includes neuter and spay. Omitting all the female/spay study, what I got from it are there are many pros and cons but again, removing castration of young dogs don't see the weight move too much in balance.

 

Here's some excerpts I've cherry picked:

 

Prostate Cancer:

This needs to be put in perspective. Unlike the situation in humans, prostate cancer is uncommon in dogs. Given an incidence of prostate cancer in dogs of less than 0.6% from necropsy studies7, it is difficult to see that the risk of prostate cancer should factor heavily into most neutering decisions. There is evidence for an increased risk of prostate cancer in at least one breed (Bouviers)5, though very little data so far to guide us in regards to other breeds.

Testicular Cancer

In summary, though it may be the most common reason why many advocate neutering young male dogs,

the risk from life threatening testicular cancer is sufficiently low that neutering most male dogs to prevent it is

difficult to justify.

Diabetes

Some data indicate that neutering doubles the risk of diabetes in male dogs, but other data showed no

significant change in diabetes risk with neutering33. In the same studies, no association was found between

spaying and the risk of diabetes.

Urinary Tract Cancer (Bladder and Urethra Cancers)

An age-matched retrospective study found that spay/neuter dogs were two times more likely to develop

lower urinary tract tumors (bladder or urethra) compared to intact dogs23. These tumors are nearly always

malignant, but are infrequent, accounting for less than 1% of canine tumors. So this risk is unlikely to weigh

heavily on spay/neuter decisions.

Perianal Fistulas

Male dogs are twice as likely to develop perianal fistulas as females, and spay/neutered dogs have a

decreased risk compared to intact dogs.

Non-cancerous Disorders of the Prostate Gland

The incidence of benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH, enlarged prostate) increases with age in intact male dogs, and occurs in more than 80% of intact male dogs older than the age of 5 years47. Most cases of BPH cause no problems, but in some cases the dog will have difficulty defecating or urinating. Neutering will prevent BPH. If neutering is done after the prostate has become enlarged, the enlarged prostate will shrink relatively quickly. BPH is linked to other problems of the prostate gland, including infections, abscesses, and cysts, which can sometimes have serious consequences.

The conclusion sections says:

 

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs to prevent future

health problems, especially immature male dogs. The number of health problems associated with neutering

may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

May exceed? It's a good study but nothing too conclusive to prove the risks of neutering your dog outweigh the health benefits associated.

[Laurelin]

Same here. I wish I had read some of the linked articles in this thread before making the decision to have Camden neutered at five months. To be perfectly honest, I had him neutered because everything I read said that's just what you do. I decided to do it early to avoid unwanted behaviors from surfacing as he entered sexual maturity (another suggestion I read over and over). In retrospect, it's quite surprising that in all of my research I never came across the legitimate arguments against neutering... or at least against neutering at such a young age. My vet also didn't advise for or against it, we just set up the appointment and it was done.

 

Now that he's been diagnosed with hip dysplasia I really, really wish I had waited. Who knows if it would've made a difference, but some of the research on early neutering and joint health is very compelling. Oh well, I know a lot more now then I did then, so live and learn and keep keeping on.

 

My one dog (female) that I altered before one year old also has joint problems (knees). Could be a coincidence but I won't do it ever again. All my other dogs have been 2-3 years old before spayed or neutered. That has always worked for me.

[Laurelin]

Unless I'm reading the articles wrong, it seems the conclusion of most of these studies is that *early* spay and neuter (before 18 - 24 months?) can contribute to a lot of these health risks.

 

I have to confess that I'm not understanding the argument against spaying/neutering once the dog is fully grown (aside from the risks involved with any surgery). So, if one has no plans to breed the animal, why keep it intact once it's finished growing?

 

Honestly, for me if it ain't broke, why fix it? I don't like having to deal with bitches in heat so I do spay the girls but the boys? They just haven't given me reason to neuter them (not that I have males right now, just girls). My dogs don't breed and never have and never will. A surgery for a well behaved and healthy dog is just a risk I don't want to take. Neutering is a risk as is every time you put your dog under for anything. I have known one dog that went for a neuter and passed away on the operating table. It's rare but it happens. If I'm happy with my dog then why risk it at all?

 

Part of it may be my upbringing because my parents both grew up rather poor and had no money for surgeries that were unneeded. Growing up it was just always assumed that you just needed to be responsible and keep the males and females apart while the female was in heat. That was just how it was done.

 

Aside from castrating too soon, I still haven't seen the tip in balance leaning toward leaving boys intact. Admittedly, over the years I've been conditioned to think all boys and girls at some point in time should be neutered or spayed (otherwise you're just not a responsible pet owner).

 

This has been a great conversation, eye opeining and has me re-thinking the pre-decision I made (by default) when I first got my current pup. He's still only 11 months and pretty well behaved (no humping) so all is well so far. I know doggy day cares usually require dogs to be altered but I haven't yet started him in agility. Do the they typically have any restrictions on intact males?

 

No, there are no restrictions on males but I believe bitches in heat aren't allowed at least in some venues... someone can correct me if I'm wrong. The only one I can think of is doing AKC agility with a non-AKC registered dog. You would have to spay/neuter any mix or non AKC dog to compete there. But USDAA and the others are not like that that I'm aware of. And certainly the training clubs don't seem to care.

[Tommy Coyote]

Females are different. I just didn't want to put up with heat cycles every six months. That was a real pain.

 

But I think I will just leave Joey unaltered at least for a while. If he is fine then I will just leave him intact.

[alligande]

 

Do the they typically have any restrictions on intact males?

The only restriction is with AKC if you have to ILP your dog then they have to be neutered (vasectomies don't count) one of the many reasons we don't do AKC Agility

I have to confess that I'm not understanding the argument against spaying/neutering once the dog is fully grown (aside from the risks involved with any surgery). So, if one has no plans to breed the animal, why keep it intact once it's finished growing?

I am of the if it ain't broke school of thought, I have a high drive agility dog who is a couch potato at home and have no desire to change anything and there are no guarantees that things won't change... If he was a jerk they would be gone, as he easy to live with why bother.

[highway61]

 

 

The evidence seems to indicate that it's not just a "guess" that early neutering can contribute to the incidence of certain problems. The science works over a population of animals and, in this case, may indicate absolutely nothing to do with a single animal. But, over the population, it seems indicative that early neutering does have an adverse effect.

 

 

Did anyone actually read any of those two links? The UC Davis study was researched on a single breed...and it ain't a Collie. From http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937

 

An important point to make is that the results of this study, being breed-specific, with regard to the effects of early and late neutering cannot be extrapolated to other breeds, or dogs in general. Because of breed-specific vulnerabilities, certain diseases being affected by neutering in Golden Retrievers may not occur in other breeds. By the same token, different joint disorders or cancers may be increased in likelihood in a different breed. A full understanding of the disease conditions affected by neutering across an array of different breeds will require several more breed-specific studies.

[Crawford Dogs]

Liz P, you made me laugh when you said that some vet techs are grossed out by testicles. It's so true! Some techs I've worked with are totally grossed out by testicles and are offended by my dog Loki's "problem" (yes that's code for testicles) which can be so "easily fixed." Funnily enough when Loki was down with an shoulder injury at 18 mo. I took him to a specialist. On initial exam she froze and then informed me that Loki had neoplastic growths. She was greatly relieved and embarassed when I told her that he was intact. We found a different specialist.

 

Bethany, Rose, and Loki-mon

[Sue R]

Did anyone actually read any of those two links? The UC Davis study was researched on a single breed...and it ain't a Collie. From http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0055937

 

An important point to make is that the results of this study, being breed-specific, with regard to the effects of early and late neutering cannot be extrapolated to other breeds, or dogs in general. Because of breed-specific vulnerabilities, certain diseases being affected by neutering in Golden Retrievers may not occur in other breeds. By the same token, different joint disorders or cancers may be increased in likelihood in a different breed. A full understanding of the disease conditions affected by neutering across an array of different breeds will require several more breed-specific studies.[/size]

Yes, I did, the naiaonline.org article, which references a number of studies in different countries involving different breeds.

 

In addition, I had discussions with my dog's orthopedic surgeon and an orthopedic surgeon we saw three years previously, who are familiar with both studies pertaining to neutering and orthopedic issues, and (for the one surgeon) over 20 years experience dealing with orthopedic problems in dogs.

 

And I was specifically referring to "early neutering" in each of my posts because that is where differences in bone growth and growth plate closure occur, not in neutering of fully-grown animals.

[Camden's Mom]

Honestly, for me if it ain't broke, why fix it? I don't like having to deal with bitches in heat so I do spay the girls but the boys? They just haven't given me reason to neuter them (not that I have males right now, just girls). My dogs don't breed and never have and never will. A surgery for a well behaved and healthy dog is just a risk I don't want to take. Neutering is a risk as is every time you put your dog under for anything. I have known one dog that went for a neuter and passed away on the operating table. It's rare but it happens. If I'm happy with my dog then why risk it at all?

 

I guess this mindset makes me a little nervous. The ongoing campaign to promote spaying and neutering, in order to reduce the population of unwanted puppies (accidental litters), seems to have largely worked. I think most people, at least in the USA, believe spaying and neutering your pet is a standard part of responsible pet ownership. Obviously we still have tons of dogs in shelters and being PTS everyday, but if everyone adhered to the "if it ain't broke, why fix it?" mindset I wonder if we'd be in a much worse situation.

 

To be clear, I know the members of this board are not going to be the ones out there causing accidental litters. Also, knowing what I know now, if I were to ever get another male puppy I would keep him intact until he was fully grown.

 

I think pet owners should be made aware of the possible risks that might be a result of *early* spaying/neutering, but I would be extremely uncomfortable with the idea of the average pet owner being advised or encouraged not to spay/neuter at all.

[d112358]

I think pet owners should be made aware of the possible risks that might be a result of *early* spaying/neutering, but I would be extremely uncomfortable with the idea of the average pet owner being advised or encouraged not to spay/neuter at all.

 

This is part of why I'm interested to see long-term effects of Zeuterin, particularly if it becomes a shelter standard. I would probably go that route (or partial spay with a bitch) if one came to me intact.

[GentleLake]

I think pet owners should be made aware of the possible risks that might be a result of *early* spaying/neutering, but I would be extremely uncomfortable with the idea of the average pet owner being advised or encouraged not to spay/neuter at all.

 

Except that for males, there's a proven alternative in vasectomy. Still no more oops litters.

[Ooky]

How common is it to find someone who will do vasectomy?

 

My biggest regret with Odin was neutering him so early. I was pressured by the vet at his first check up and since I planned "to be a good owner" (I assumed all good owners neutered back then), I agreed and allowed it to be done when he was tiny Never again.

[GentleLake]

I don't think there are a whole lot of vets doing it yet, but it's like anything else -- if the demand is there, it will be offered.

 

I suspect it's going to take some savvy dog owners doing their research and demanding alternatives, but I do think it'll become more available eventually. People are pretty invested in the status quo right now and probably don't even realize they even have options.

[Liz P]

It's not exactly hard. I refuse to do surgery on my own dogs, but I've had vasectomies done on my males by colleagues who have never done it before. Make an incision, locate the cords, cut out a section. Easier than a neuter.

 

Yes, those nasty growths do scare some people.