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I think of border collies as knights. Nobody thinks a knight is a wimp because the knight's loyalty is impeccable. Nobody thinks they are battle reluctant because their loyalty is impeccable. The greatest knight is the one who is a warrior and who will never let the king/queen down. They are valiant, driven, and dedicated. And when border collies are working towards a successes with both the drive to work the sheep and the drive to work for the handler their joy and enthusiasm is exponential.

 

This is something so precious that can be seen only in full bloom in working border collies, breeding them for sports is blind breeding in respect to this, because no sports put this sort of demand on the dog in relation to dedication to the handler. Thus sport bred dogs may have drive for a time, though in fact it is being bred out of them all the time.

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Biddability is when at a panel or the pen on a trial field ( or at the gate of a stock trailer in a 20 acre pasture) the dog gives you an incredulous look before taking the flank you asked for. The dog knows it's the wrong one and is going to cause the dog a lot more work in the long run, but because you asked, they do it. All so you can learn not to make that stupid mistake again.

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:) That is why when in the above situation I have learned to use the dog's name if I am unsure on anything. There was one trial where I used only Taw's name on a cross drive- that was funny- tho therre are those here on the forumwho saw this. When I was asked why I did that I replied- hum.....

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There will always be examples and counter examples, preferences and dislikes. In the end, on this matter, I sincerely believe it comes down to the ethics of the humans involved (I know I said this before but,well....). Once you have understood the principles involved in breeding working Border Collies, you will either accept the ethics that fall out from those principles or you won't. I don't mean to make it sound simple--it isn't in many ways, but that's why we have the larger prefrontal cortex ;-).

 

It took about a decade or two for conformation breeding of border collies to breed out, in general within that population, many of the qualities that are tied to high level stockwork and many that are tied to sports performance (some of which are overlapping of course). Heavy breeding for sports performance is doing the same as regards stockwork. That's what purpose oriented breeding intends.

 

Once we overcome ignorance, we are left to make decisions.

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I never imagined that biddability could be equated with being too easy or lacking fire or drive, but ... I guess I can see how that might be.

 

I don't believe biddability and drive are mutually exclusive at all and definitely not in the Border Collies I see. I think it all comes down to personal preference. As much as I love dogs in general, there are very few breeds in specific I am interested in owning. I enjoy hearing why people favor the breeds or dogs that they do. I don't always understand it, but I don't need to. I know a person who revels in her chosen breed which is very independent, strong willed, primitive and prone to leave dead varmits in her yard. I think her current dog is pretty and friendly, but the allure entirely escapes me. I certainly can't cast stones, since I have a horrible weakness for Lhasas who are also very independent, strong willed and primitive. :lol:

 

I find each dog and breed brings its own challenge. Yes, Border Collies want to work with you and learn blazingly fast but that includes learning the wrong way to do things. When I was training Quinn in agility, I found it more of a challenge than my Shelties or Lhasa. When I came across the sentiment that doing agility with a Border Collie was a cop out, I laughed. Not for this trainer/handler. :)

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Dear Doggers,

 

The categories we have are useful but can constrict our thinking.

 

I've had hard-as-a-rock collies that crumpled if I insisted on a command they really, really didn't want to take and wonderfully biddable dogs who blew me off at the Moment of Truth.

 

I've worked talented and stupid collies, bold collies and collies frightened of their own shadows, collies that were anxious to please and some who were so anxious to please they couldn't get anything right.

 

For many reasons - some (ugh) sentimental - I've walked onto the field with dogs that could win that day and dogs that couldn't win if our lives depended on it. Every collie/every trial/every group of sheep/every run is different: at that unique moment!

 

As are you and I.

 

As Heraclitus wrote: "You can't step onto the same trial field twice."

 

Donald McCaig

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"Biddable" to me indicates a dog that easily complies with direction even if it isn't what it really wants to do. Not having anything better in mind can come into it but not always. It's no big deal to get a dog to do as you want if the dog wants the same thing.

 

I can see why some people wouldn't like that type of biddability, but there is a difference between the biddability of a golden retriever, and a border collie. To me, you are describing the biddability of a golden retriever. Border collies, IMO, should be intelligently biddable. My border collie service dog loves to work with me, but when it comes to his job, he is not above outright disobeying a cue ("I'm fine" when he's checking in on me) if he doesn't believe me. He is smart enough to figure out that for one, I'm not being truthful with him, and for two, that I actually want him to do something else other than what I actually telling him to do. He wants to please me enough that he risks ignoring a cue. I can see this translating on the agility field pretty well, especially considering what a novice I am, I can only image how many wrong cues I'm going to give that he's going to have to decipher in order to do the right thing, because he wants to please me.

 

If someone told me they don't want this in a dog, I would steer them far away from this breed, but it seems like some sports people are choosing instead to breed this trait away or intentionally choose dogs without it. I would much rather work with a dog that wants to please me, but has its own mind, than a dog that would blow me off just because it thinks it's fun. I guess I can see where that might be a fun challenge to someone, but there are plenty of other breeds to get this challenge from. My border collies are my partners, I never want that to change.

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Yes, that 'partner up' attitude is rolled into what I think of as biddability. Being biddable doesn't necessarily mean the dog blindly does whatever is asked all of the time. Or that it has no other urges to do other than what you say. It's not a specific moment in time of 'I'll do whatever you tell me without question". It's more of an attitude, that the dog acknowledges we are a TEAM and we are doing a JOB together and that job is every bit as important to the dog as it is to me and that the dog has things to contribute to that partnership and will do so honestly and freely in support of our combined goal and the give and take that goes on between us as the dog works out what specific thing we're doing. It's the dog that once you've given a few flank commands and it's worked out where you want the sheep headed, will help you out and make adjustments of its own, even if the sheep are headed somewhere they want to go, even if the dog wasn't particularly comfortable with that plan at first, but the dog trusts you that together the two of you are doing something important. This is opposed to a dog who will keep fighting you the whole way and will only keep that line because past experience has taught it you'll run up the field and make a correction if the dog doesn't comply, and if you ever get in a situation where the dog thinks you won't enforce what you're asking, then it will do its own thing. There is a smart, thinking, responsible quality to that sort of biddability, vs as was stated more of a golden retriever blind-obedience type of personality. It's having a partner vs an employee or a servant. The dogs I've had that I'd rate as very biddable, I have loved that feeling of connection with them and the mutual trust that we could count on each other.

 

There's a high degree of biddability in the border collie population as a whole. But what happens as generations go along and this trait, which is still important, isn't really tested - you start to lower the overall average biddability and over time you get a population shift towards less biddable dogs. At some point that's going to start affecting how the dog does at sports. I'm sure trainers will adjust their methods to deal with it and maybe they won't even notice so much at first, but a fundamental quality of what made these dogs so great at sports right from the start will start to fade out of the population.

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Mark, too, has owned a retired racing greyhound. I know that when I was tending their dogs one day as they worked a practice field for the Gettysburg National Sheepdog Finals, I was not to walk Jasper unless he was on leash and to be ready and observant because, if he saw a rabbit, he'd be off. He was a cream puff at all other times.

 

My Quote function won't work. Just want to say @MarkBilledeau, having owned a retired racing greyhound, I *know* that difference. I've lived it. And it is horrifying to experience in open country because there is NO biddability in a sight hound in full run.

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Flamincomet and Diana A have really put their finger on something hugely significant, and I would urge everyone to read and try to understand what they're saying. There are border collies who are so much your partner that they will use your commands not just as simple directions ("go left," "lie down") to be obeyed without thought, but as clues to what ultimate purpose you are trying to achieve (e.g., where you want the sheep to end up). This quality enables them to embrace and achieve your goal, even when it means they have to go contrary to your specific direction. This is really an amazing combination of reasoning power and biddability. When you tell this to people who haven't experienced it for themselves, they roll their eyes -- they think you're anthropomorphising or "going all mystical." If you have experienced it, however, you appreciate it as something extraordinary and precious in the breed that you really, really, really would not want to see drop away and be lost.

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Alert, gross gerneralization coming up.....biddability, I believe, is going to be existent to a higher or lesser degree in any dog that successfully performs in any area that requires the dog to take orders against his or her possible perception of the commands usefulness. The "hey, did you really mean away in this case" look!

 

When I was younger, and I still love to trouble shoot and love working with problems. It is a matching of wits for me that makes me always keep learning and I get a rush out of seeing the proverbial lightbulb come on. BUT, as I have put in my dues, I am really appreciating the mental biddability in any subject more and more. After all, there are plenty of scenarios and situations that are popping up anyway. So to have a higher degree of it, yet with backbone, is what makes life a lot more balanced. And the ability of the working breeds has always set them apart. The ability to work independent and yet in sync with the handler.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that I see more hyperactive drive with less independent thinking biddability in the sport bred dogs. This goes not just for the Border Collies I know but Malinois, Aussies, and GSD's as well. Which are all breeds I have worked with myself.

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Yesenia, my quote function doesn't work either. The site won't let me copy and paste either. Aaargh.

 

Anyway, I think I read a post here many years ago which sums up the kind of biddability that seems built into well bred working border collies.

 

The gist of it was, a farmer sent his dog out to gather sheep from a hillside to bring them in. It was spring. You could see the flock from the barn, but not much more. The dog had done this exact chore many times.

 

Dog leaves, the farmer sees him race up the hill to the flock. He sees the flock bunch up a bit and start down the hillside. But, as he counts them as they come into the pen, he realizes that he's short one sheep, and there is no dog. The light is fading, and after he has called and whistled and gotten no response, he gets on his ATV and goes up the hillside in search of the dog and the sheep.

 

When he finds them, he finds a ewe that has two brand new babies, and the dog sitting patiently. The lambs were not yet walking, and the ewe won't leave them. The dog won't leave the sheep. The dog made a decision that his larger purpose was to stay with the sheep who couldn't move yet.

 

I'm probably mangling the story, I might even be embellishing it. I don't have any experience at all with working stock, and feel I am a bit presumptuous to base this post on something I read years ago. But this is what the right balance of biddability and thinking for yourself can do. It's another reason that breeding for work is so important.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

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There are border collies who are so much your partner that they will use your commands not just as simple directions ("go left," "lie down") to be obeyed without thought, but as clues to what ultimate purpose you are trying to achieve (e.g., where you want the sheep to end up). This quality enables them to embrace and achieve your goal, even when it means they have to go contrary to your specific direction. This is really an amazing combination of reasoning power and biddability.

 

I know what you mean.

 

This has saved my butt in Agility with Tessa time and time again. When I have actually directed the wrong thing (verbally or with body language), but she read the entire context and didn't take the directive literally, used the information in the big picture to figure out what I must really want, and has then proceeded to do exactly what I really wanted because she understood and was willing to step out on her own and get the job done.

 

Often it is subtle but when it happens I never miss it. :)

 

And she is always happiest after a run where that happens.

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Raymond MacPherson competed on One Man and His Dog with Tweed, I believe. The dog was fetching six sheep across a small rivulet, from behind some trees or brush. When Tweed appeared with his sheep, he kept hesitating, very uncharacteristically, and not being willing to respond to Raymond's whistles urging him to bring the sheep on. It became evident that his hesitation was due to that fact that he only had five sheep, not the six that had been set out. Somehow, out of sight, the sixth sheep had been separated and Tweed knew that he had left a sheep behind.

 

Raymond, an excellent and experienced handler and sheepman, laid Tweed down and used the drifting packet of five sheep to be the "magnet" for the sixth sheep, which came out from behind the cover and rejoined its mates. At the appropriate point, Raymond whistled Tweed on and they completed a lovely round.

 

A good stock dog understands livestock, is intelligent and instinctive, but is also biddable, taking direction and also being able to be commanded to do something contrary to instinct when the command is what the job requires. A good dog (and a good handler) never ceases to amaze me.

 

If you have the DVD, 30 Years of One Man and His Dog, you can watch this amazing run, along with many other noteworthy examples of what the true working sheepdog is capable of accomplishing under the knowing guidance of a good sheep man or woman. Those who breed for anything else are throwing away the core of the genetics that produced one of man's most unique, prized, and valuable partners.

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If you have the DVD, 30 Years of One Man and His Dog, you can watch this amazing run, along with many other noteworthy examples of what the true working sheepdog is capable of accomplishing under the knowing guidance of a good sheep man or woman. Those who breed for anything else are throwing away the core of the genetics that produced one of man's most unique, prized, and valuable partners. (emphasis added)

 

Hear! Hear!

 

Nicely put, Sue. This is perhaps the most succinctly and eloquently phrased rationale I've seen for breeding solely for working ability that I've seen yet.

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No one is arguing that there is no purpose in breeding for working ability with whatever degree of biddability that entails, but the discussion a little way back was considering why someone wanting a sport dog would be persuaded that such working ability was superior to what they get from sport bred dogs for their specific purpose. I really don't see why they would be.

 

My preference would always be for a non sport bred dog but I'd have a very difficult time making a compelling case to the owner of a sport bred dog that doesn't work that they should change their views because there really is no evidence that they would be happier with a working bred dog ime. But then I don't really know any psychotic sport bred dogs amongst all the agility dogs I come across.

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Many years ago, I sent Tess into my leased field to gather the flock. It was about 25 acres and knee to waist high in grass. The sheep but no Tess. I whistled but no Tess. I got frantic and thought she had hurt herself. I ran up the looking for her and had no idea where she was. I saw her head pop up about 600 yds away and ran up there. She was next to a weak lamb. Mom had abandoned it and he still had the dried placenta on him. Tess was cleaning him off and he was nuzzling her. I picked him and up and he cried and cried. I walked with him and let him walk for a bit and Tess walked very slowly next to him, nuzzling him and it was so endearing. He ended up being a bottle lamb and would seek Tess out as his surrogate mom. He would sleep next to her and she would clean his bottom.

 

She could have left him while gathering the flock but she was far smarter than me and took charge. When he grew up and if something "scared him" he would run to Tess for protection and she would lick him and comfort him. it was quite interesting to see how much the Border Collie could figure out so much on their own.

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No one is arguing that there is no purpose in breeding for working ability with whatever degree of biddability that entails, but the discussion a little way back was considering why someone wanting a sport dog would be persuaded that such working ability was superior to what they get from sport bred dogs for their specific purpose. I really don't see why they would be.

 

My preference would always be for a non sport bred dog but I'd have a very difficult time making a compelling case to the owner of a sport bred dog that doesn't work that they should change their views because there really is no evidence that they would be happier with a working bred dog ime.

 

No doubt you're right about that, for the most part. The percentage of people who can take a long-range view about anything, or appreciate a bigger picture than their own immediate happiness, is relatively small. But there are some.

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  • 4 months later...

I came across this thread by accident by a google search. I have been researching for quite sometime for my next dog which will be a border collie. I have found this thread to be so interesting! It has given me new things to consider in my decision. I haven't made it through the whole thread yet but will continue later.

 

I agree with another poster please don't feel your post have fallen upon deaf ears. I have taken in a lot of new information! :)

 

Thanks!

 

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