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So the dogs who fail at herding can be sloughed off to sport homes? When people are arguing that it's the herding ability of the border collie which defines the breed and is at the root of the breed's ability to excel at sports, does it not seem a little counter-intuitive to suggest that you can send the herding rejects off to run agility?

 

The other thing here is that the vast majority of people who are looking for dogs as performance sport partners are not looking to purchase older dogs who would have had time to try stockwork and be found unsuitable. Most will either want to purchase a puppy straight off to start foundation work from early puppyhood, or, if interested in an older dog, will likely give a home to a rescue.

 

Of course, there will be exceptions, but I really doubt much of a market would be found among sport enthusiasts for dogs in this particular population.

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So the dogs who fail at herding can be sloughed off to sport homes? When people are arguing that it's the herding ability of the border collie which defines the breed and is at the root of the breed's ability to excel at sports, does it not seem a little counter-intuitive to suggest that you can send the herding rejects off to run agility?

 

Not really. Breeding for working ability is what made the Border Collie the breed it is and why it is so great in so many activities.

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So the dogs who fail at herding can be sloughed off to sport homes? When people are arguing that it's the herding ability of the border collie which defines the breed and is at the root of the breed's ability to excel at sports, does it not seem a little counter-intuitive to suggest that you can send the herding rejects off to run agility?

 

I admit I'm being a bit argumentative and literal, but I'm sure you can see the issue some might take with that mindset.

 

I think what people are saying is that it's breeding for working ability that also makes these dogs good prospects for other performance venues. There are many aspects to working ability, and some are not important at all to agility. A herding "flunkee" could easily be a gem in agility. The other side of the coin is that some working bred dogs might not be good prospects for agility, it's an individual thing, just like not all dogs bred for agility will be good at it.

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The other thing here is that the vast majority of people who are looking for dogs as performance sport partners are not looking to purchase older dogs who would have had time to try stockwork and be found unsuitable. Most will either want to purchase a puppy straight off to start foundation work from early puppyhood, or, if interested in an older dog, will likely give a home to a rescue.

 

Of course, there will be exceptions, but I really doubt much of a market would be found among sport enthusiasts for dogs in this particular population.

 

Plenty of failed sheepdogs to be found in rescue here. Sometimes what made them unsuitable for work also makes them unsuitable for sports.

 

I'd be wary if I knew a rescue dog had been started on sheep because it's important to me that my dogs should have zero interest in them since we come across them everywhere and I have no interest in doing stockwork. A failed sheepdog might have proved difficult to control with stock, or it might have lacked drive. If the latter it might lack drive in other areas too. I do know failed sheepdogs that fall into both categories.

 

I always rescue and would rather take a dog that is an unknown quantity as far as working ability is concerned and of unknown breeding and base my decision on the dog I see before me.

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A couple of things.

 

First, regarding 'failed' sheepdogs or poor quality sheepdogs going to sport homes. Most sport homes want a puppy. Many working breeders will sell puppies to pet or sport homes. They have no idea when they let that puppy go if it's a 'failed' sheepdog, or if they might have just let the next Wiston Cap out of their hands. But if working breeders know that sport homes will buy puppies ,then they can breed more often, so maybe if that litter produces 6 pups and 4 go on to be outstanding workers and 2 go into sport homes and you have no clue how they would have been as stockdogs, the person can still repeat that breeding and know they'll have homes for some more working dogs and probably some more dogs to sport homes. So maybe you lose some good ones, but you also probably end up with more good ones in the long run. So I think it's wrong to give newbies the impression that they should buy a working dog but they'll only get the rejects. They're going to very likely get a good quality dog with the complete package of awesome working traits that make a great working dog or great sport dog and it likely will be every bit as good as the dog the breeder keeps and goes on to win Open trials with.

 

Also regarding the post of mine quoted from 2011 on this topic, I wanted to add a bit to that, as I've been thinking about it a lot lately and now I've had another 2-3 years watching all these sport breedings escalate. That part about how the pressure of the work keeps things in balance is SO important.

 

One good example - it is imperative for a good working sheepdog to be biddable at least to some degree. You can't breed a dog with a strong work drive, tons of natural talent and desire to be in control, and then not have a handle on it through the biddability. And that dog with all the talent and drive needs to have TRUE biddability - a real and honest desire to 'partner up' and please a handler because they have a whole lot of other stuff going on in their minds that can go against that biddability.

 

Now look at what sport breeding allows to happen. You can easily get what LOOKS like biddability but is in fact something else altogether. I'm seeing a lot of sport dogs with very soft, sensitive temperaments. They appear to be very biddable, but how much of that is the 'real' form of biddability and how much of it is self-serving 'poor me, I feel emotionally crushed when my handler is upset with me so I will try very very hard not to make a mistake'. And them some element of that is also with all the positive training used these days, you have a whole lot of incentive to work besides just wanting to please the handler and not a whole lot counteracting that urge where the biddability needs to be strong enough to out-weight other factors. So basically, sports aren't a strong selective force for the biddability trait. The agility dog who stops on the contact when he could go launching off isn't necessarily thinking "I'd really like to launch but I won't since I know my handler really wants me to stop." What more likely is going on is he's been taught in careful steps since puppy hood to be in that position and to associate it with good things and to build a very strong habit of performing that behavior in that context, to the point where he has no other thought in his mind and no concept of another possible way to behave than what he has been taught. So when he stops instead of jumping off, is he being biddable or not? How can you tell? The training methods have gotten so good that they work for just about any dog, so how does agility then select for a high degree of biddability in a border collie if those same methods produce pretty similar results with a hound or a terrier? And if you lost that trait, would you even notice at first?

 

So maybe you lose that 'real' biddability because you can't tell the difference in an agility setting between a sensitive dog, a self-serving dog, and the real deal biddability. In a working stockdog, that overly sensitive dog would be a marshmallow on the stock and back down to pressure and would be weeded out. Equally the hard headed 'I'm in in for myself' type of dog would likely be weeded out or at least bred to counter those traits. And the "I'll do it as long as it's fun and I'm getting rewarded for it" dog or the "I never even thought of doing it another way" dog maybe would be a massive failure when it came to releasing pressure when asked or working off balance or trying to start driving if the dog really wanted to fetch. Without that weeding out process, the basic character of the dog would change and a truly great quality of the breed could be lost.

 

My very first border collie was an amazing combination of tough-as-nails on the sensitivity scale and totally OFF The scale (in a good way) on biddability. He'd move heaven and earth to do what I wanted but if I ever lost my temper with him or used a physical correction on him, I'd get pretty much no reaction at all, just a 'so what' look and then let's get on with what we were doing. He got taken out by a ram one time early in his training and just got up, shook himself off, and went right back to what he was doing. He did change his approach a bit to avoid a repeat of the take-down, but he sure didn't fall apart over it or quit or get a weird complex about working in tight spaces. That was an awesome combination to work with, vs some I've worked since then that you have to be so careful to avoid offending them or shutting them down if they think they've made a mistake, or the flip side, you have to escalate to heavy pressure tactics to get them to comply with what you want.

 

You also know that genetics is a complex thing. Look at that Russian fox experiment where they bred for a difference in tameness and ended up with physical changes (odd colors and floppy ears, more doglike bahavior, etc). So what subtle changes are starting in these sport dogs that may lead to unknown consequences?

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Tess' Girl,

Are you planning to come to the Bluegrass this year? I'll be setting sheep on the novice field (if you saw any of the novice/nursery classes last year, that was me setting sheep then too).

 

J.

 

Julie,

 

Yes! I will be there. Every day if I can manage it. I will probably try to volunteer. Maybe I will even bring Tess for a bit one day. I will have to watch for you.

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It would depend upon why the dog flunked at herding.

 

There are many reasons why a herding flunky may be perfect for sport. For example a dog may flunk herding because it will not stand to livestock stomping at it, never learned to flank properly, too much eye at the lift, etc. None of these situations will come up in agility.

 

The other issue is finding homes for all pups in a working bred litter. Some breeding will not occur if the breeder does not have likely homes for many pups in the planned litter. This means those buying from sport breeders are influencing the total number of working bred litters.

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When it comes down to it, the only way working bred Border Collies are going to come into demand among the greater dog sport population would be if working breeders were to actively market to sport participants. Actively sell and promote working bred Border Collies as sport dogs, making the case that Border Collies bred for work are more appropriate for sports than the sport bred Border Collies, provided with concrete sport related advantages.

 

I realize that there are a thousand reasons why that is not something that most working breeders are going to have one shred of interest in doing.

 

But really, that is the only way a huge demand for working bred Border Collies might be created among this population.

 

Possibly if a very high level high profile Agility person ran working bred Border Collies and was very vocal about promoting them, a similar effect could be achieved. But only if those "followers" of that person could readily run out and buy working bred Border Collies as easily as they can get them from sport breeders . . .

 

I really see it as something of a catch 22. Of course most working breeders are not interested in doing such marketing because they are busy working stock with their dogs and for most it is probably not even on their radar. And, of course working breeders aren't going to suddenly start pumping out puppies like crazy to flood a market that is currently occupied by sport breeders.

 

On the other hand, those coming at this from a dog sport culture perspective are often not aware that there is even a difference between Border Collies of different types of breeding and there is really no desire on the part of most to seek out a working bred Border Collie specifically. It makes sense, if you think about it, that people are not going to some amount of work to seek out something that they barely know exists, or possibly may not know exists at all!

 

I think that is why we end up going around and around and around about this. I'm not saying it's a hopeless cause at all, but it is a difficulty that will likely persist for a long time to come.

 

People in sports seeking Border Collies are going to tend toward those breeders who market to them as a population. The sport breeders are marketing to them. So are some of the conformation breeders. So are some of the random backyard breeders. So are many rescue organizations. There are few working breeders in that mix.

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What makes sense is that sport dog owners want a dog bred for their function; they want a different breed than Border Collie.

The problem is that kennel club concepts have redefined breeds based upon appearance as opposed to function and the general public does not realize that sport bred dogs that look like Border Collies are really a different breed than Border Collies (bred for livestock work). Just like the genetic divergence between field dogs and non-field dogs in other breeds; there is an ongoing genetic divergence between Border Collies and sport bred dogs. When the gene pools are different then there are two different breeds.

 

 

Our analyses revealed strong population structure within poodles, with differences among some poodle groups as pronounced as those among other well-recognized breeds.

 

In dog breeding, individuals are selected on the basis of morphology, behaviour, working or show purposes, as well as geographic population structure. The same processes which have historically created dog breeds are still ongoing, and create further subdivision within current dog breeds. (source)

 

When genetic differences between sub-populations (i.e. working, sport, show) can be as great as between breeds; doesn't this mean breeds (genetically speaking) are defined by breeding goals (working, sport, show, etc) and not appearance?

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Yes, to Kristine's post. ^^^

 

Now I am curious to find out where some of the dogs that the top handlers run come from. i.e. how many come from sports breeders and which sports breeders, and how many (may) come from working-bred parents. It's probably a no-brainer that most will be running sports-bred border collies.

 

It is a snowball effect. Many handlers will be paying attention to where a top handler purchased their dog. They may then go to that breeder to try and get a pup. (not any different than sheepdog handlers keeping track of dogs that perform well and then trying to get a dog from a similar breeding or line for their next pup.)

 

I think that it will take more handlers running working-bred dogs - and talking about the advantages of same - to start people thinking about not getting their next pup from a sport/versatility breeding.

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Now look at what sport breeding allows to happen. You can easily get what LOOKS like biddability but is in fact something else altogether. I'm seeing a lot of sport dogs with very soft, sensitive temperaments. They appear to be very biddable, but how much of that is the 'real' form of biddability and how much of it is self-serving 'poor me, I feel emotionally crushed when my handler is upset with me so I will try very very hard not to make a mistake'. And them some element of that is also with all the positive training used these days, you have a whole lot of incentive to work besides just wanting to please the handler and not a whole lot counteracting that urge where the biddability needs to be strong enough to out-weight other factors. So basically, sports aren't a strong selective force for the biddability trait. The agility dog who stops on the contact when he could go launching off isn't necessarily thinking "I'd really like to launch but I won't since I know my handler really wants me to stop." What more likely is going on is he's been taught in careful steps since puppy hood to be in that position and to associate it with good things and to build a very strong habit of performing that behavior in that context, to the point where he has no other thought in his mind and no concept of another possible way to behave than what he has been taught. So when he stops instead of jumping off, is he being biddable or not? How can you tell? The training methods have gotten so good that they work for just about any dog, so how does agility then select for a high degree of biddability in a border collie if those same methods produce pretty similar results with a hound or a terrier? And if you lost that trait, would you even notice at first?

 

 

If I'm honest I don't want an especially biddable dog for agility, or anything else for that matter. I want one with fire to run and jump because it gets such a rush from it. Control can be gained but true enthusiasm comes from within.

 

I don't want a dog that is only capable of a moderate performance because it has to be coaxed and rewarded all the time nor do I want a dog that constantly has a "What next boss?" look in its eye.

Give me a naughty, in it for itself dog any time. That's the sort I can work with and have fun. I find biddability (whichever definition you use) boring and much prefer a free spirit. I've had dogs that hardly leave my heel and have been so willing to comply with whatever I've asked but, much as I've loved them , I've still found them a bit annoying at times. I feel so guilty for saying that as if I'm betraying their devotion.

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Well, heck, I like a bit of a naughty streak too, and would always prefer having to curb the overenthusiastic than beg the unenthusiastic, but at the end of the day, I still need a dog who will listen and partner with me. That's where the trust comes from that allows me to send my dog out of sight after stock and know it's not doing me (and the stock) dirty when I can't see what's going on. I guess that would be one big difference from what Pam seeks above--too much of a free spirit/in for itself dog when working stock could be bad news for the stock.

 

J.

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I am with Julie on this 100%! Heck I will go a step further...I love biddability in my clients, I love it in my partners, you get the gist. And you know, when I understand what someone else wants from me...I can even be biddable. :)

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I think that a dog can be both biddable and have a fire in its belly.

In agiliy, one doesn't want a dog that grabs obstacles willy-nilly to self-reward. And if I send my dog to an obstacle at distance, so I can run to where i need to be, I need to trust that he will take that obstacle and not jump out of the ring and keep going.

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Well, heck, I like a bit of a naughty streak too, and would always prefer having to curb the overenthusiastic than beg the unenthusiastic, but at the end of the day, I still need a dog who will listen and partner with me. That's where the trust comes from that allows me to send my dog out of sight after stock and know it's not doing me (and the stock) dirty when I can't see what's going on. I guess that would be one big difference from what Pam seeks above--too much of a free spirit/in for itself dog when working stock could be bad news for the stock.

 

J.

 

 

The thing is that the "biddability" of a working bred dog is being suggested as a selling point that ought to influence those looking to acquire a collie, but it isn't defined what anyone means by it.

 

The sort of thing you are talking about is of no interest to those wanting a dog purely for sports, That isn't to say that they want a dog that won't follow instructions.

 

The way I see it, most sports people have no incentive to choose a working bred dog over one that has been bred for sport, unless they are finding difficulty getting hold of a sport dog bred for good temperament. We have read wildly divergent views as to whether the majority of US sport bred dogs are a "hot mess" or pretty normal on the whole.

 

Working bred dogs are not physically or mentally any more or less suited to sports than purpose bred dogs. People will have their preferences not purely based on the working v sport bred dichotomy.

 

I'm too careful with my money to pay breeder prices for either.

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I think that a dog can be both biddable and have a fire in its belly.

In agiliy, one doesn't want a dog that grabs obstacles willy-nilly to self-reward. And if I send my dog to an obstacle at distance, so I can run to where i need to be, I need to trust that he will take that obstacle and not jump out of the ring and keep going.

 

 

Training. It doesn't bother me if a dog does every obstacle 3 times in the wrong order to start with. We have 2 dogs that started like that and got to the top grade here. They were such fun at that stage. I wouldn't call either of them naturally biddable even now but it didn't take too long to harness that enthusiasm. I wouldn't have missed a moment of the journey.

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When a self rewarding opportunity pops up, I want to be able to maintain the control that I need to get the job done.

That to me is biddability.

 

And to be more complete....I suppose everyone needs (not wants) a different degree of it. So a more accomplished handler that has more skill may be certainly looking for a dog with more "fire" in its belly. Be essentially be able to handle less interest in following instructions when it maybe inconvenient.

 

Of course not just because the dog "genetically" or miraculously knows what I want. Obviously, training him to understand why and that it is not the end of the world is a pre requisite.

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biddability: the dog's willingness to accept control/direction from the handler when its instincts are directing it to do something different. In the absence of handler direction the dog will do what its instincts are directing.

 

Compare training a sight hound vs a Border Collie to stop in mid pursuit (not at the start of pursuit but once pursuit is in full tilt).

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Mum24dog writes:


"If I'm honest I don't want an especially biddable dog for agility, or anything else for that matter. I want one with fire to run and jump because it gets such a rush from it. Control can be gained but true enthusiasm comes from within. I don't want a dog that is only capable of a moderate performance because it has to be coaxed and rewarded all the time nor do I want a dog that constantly has a "What next boss?" look in its eye. Give me a naughty, in it for itself dog any time. That's the sort I can work with and have fun. I find biddability (whichever definition you use) boring and much prefer a free spirit. I've had dogs that hardly leave my heel and have been so willing to comply with whatever I've asked but, much as I've loved them , I've still found them a bit annoying at times. I feel so guilty for saying that as if I'm betraying their devotion."



I find it intereseting that you equate biddability with lack of enthusiasm and needing to be coaxed and bribed with rewards to work That is maybe a perfect example of what I'm talking about. A good dog with true biddability should have a lot of drive and enthusiasm for whatever its doing, and in the absence of specific direction, be able to think for itself and want to go do things and get a rush from it and do the work for the sake of doing the work because it's fun. But that biddable dog can also work reliably with direction when direction is applied. You get the best of both worlds; the gas pedal is in full forward mode, but the brakes still work extremely well when you wan to use them. You must have had some bad experiences with exactly the type of 'fake biddable' dog I'm talking about - the type that listens well because it doesn't particularly care enough to do anything wrong or think for itself. I have a working bred dog I'm doing agility with right now. She also is a great stock dog and I trial her in USBCHA. She would turn herself inside out to please me, listens very well on stock despite being extremely keen and controlling with the sheep, but has plenty of 'fire' in agility and if I'm not clear she'll go grab obstacles or decide for herself what she should be doing. She's perfectly capable of being naughty. But if I'm clear on what I want, she'll do it for me and I can count on her to be reliable without having to go through all kinds of tricks (ie, training in the ring type stuff) to keep her behaviors consistent. She does them because she knows it's what I want and that makes it what she wants. She is a blast to work with. I can't stand a lot of the 'mush' type sport dogs I'm seeing in the area. I'd rather have the 'real deal'.


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I think that a dog can be both biddable and have a fire in its belly.

In agiliy, one doesn't want a dog that grabs obstacles willy-nilly to self-reward. And if I send my dog to an obstacle at distance, so I can run to where i need to be, I need to trust that he will take that obstacle and not jump out of the ring and keep going.

 

 

That is, hands down, one of the things that I love best about my Tessa as a performance partner - she is the perfect balance of independence and biddability. There is nothing she enjoys more than being sent off to do something on her own, but even when she is off doing that, we are still attuned to each other and when the task is complete she is ready for input on the next thing. She isn't clingy, she isn't Velcro, she doesn't run into stuff because she's trying to run with her eyes on me, but she's not off in her own little world several incorrect pieces of equipment away, either. It is the perfect balance of give and take. If she is sufficiently trained to do something I ask, I can 100% trust her to get it done - even if I am not at my best and I somehow falter in my handling.

 

Although not classically "drivey", when she's in her element, she runs with passion and she puts every ounce of herself into her run.

 

And where did I get it? Off the street.

 

Go figure.

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Mum24dog writes:

"If I'm honest I don't want an especially biddable dog for agility, or anything else for that matter. I want one with fire to run and jump because it gets such a rush from it. Control can be gained but true enthusiasm comes from within. I don't want a dog that is only capable of a moderate performance because it has to be coaxed and rewarded all the time nor do I want a dog that constantly has a "What next boss?" look in its eye. Give me a naughty, in it for itself dog any time. That's the sort I can work with and have fun. I find biddability (whichever definition you use) boring and much prefer a free spirit. I've had dogs that hardly leave my heel and have been so willing to comply with whatever I've asked but, much as I've loved them , I've still found them a bit annoying at times. I feel so guilty for saying that as if I'm betraying their devotion."

 

I find it interesting that you equate biddability with lack of enthusiasm and needing to be coaxed and bribed with reward to work

"Biddable" to me indicates a dog that easily complies with direction even if it isn't what it really wants to do. Not having anything better in mind can come into it but not always. It's no big deal to get a dog to do as you want if the dog wants the same thing.

 

I don't want a dog that works to please me. I'd much rather it worked because it found the task rewarding in some way and self rewarding is fine by me. It's nothing to be scared of and can be controlled. I get much more of a buzz from gaining the cooperation of a non biddable dog than from one that is willing to do whatever I want.

 

It's probably why BCs are not my favourite type of dog. Don't get me wrong, I like them well enough but there are other types that suit my personality better. But I'm getting old and my next dog may be another BC because I don't have the same time energy or motivation for a challenge that I used to have. I keep saying I want a nice and easy dog next time, but who knows what I will end up with.

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Well I guess all the same could be said for a failed herding dog as a failed agility dog, depending on how competitive you plan to be. getting a puppy in general is a gamble, and you can at best increase your odds by choosing proper breeding. most BCs I know dont get tested on real stock till 8 months. Agility doesnt really amp up until the dog is 1 (with puppy foundation)...time is the only way to tell either way.

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I never imagined that biddability could be equated with being too easy or lacking fire or drive, but ... I guess I can see how that might be.

I expect it must be semantics, though, because I view my Nick as one of the most strikingly biddable working dogs I know - lord knows I've made enough mistakes in his training, but he's always willing to let me re-train and fix stuff. However, he's darned sure no marshmallow. He'll move pretty much any sheep I can put in front of him, he's strong, focused, pushy, fearless, fast and he's certainly not above taking a command exactly opposite of what I said. He proved that to me twice at our last trial! :P

To me, biddability means a dog who's wiling to partner up with me. Plain and simple. It doesn't mean he's so slavishly willing to do anything I say that he'll ignore his own better instincts. Bring on the flames and rocket ships, you betcha! :D But I want a partner and co-pilot, not a runaway train.

Shutting up, now! B)

~ Gloria

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