Border Collie Breeder!!! :)

[GentleLake]

Gloria's spot on . . . again.

[Kian's Mom]

I just thought that since this was going Sport against Working that someone new might like the information.

I know you guys have been over this a lot, but with so many on the internet and that's where a lot of people are going to go for a pup.

[B Point]

Interesting thread... My 8 month old pup is an amazing dog. I searched for a long time to find a breeder in Japan that had any concept of "working" dog as I think most here are just bred for the superficial things like color, maybe some sport but mostly temperament I think. This little guy was about as close to working stock (from a farm breeder) as I could find and it will be interesting to see if he can work or not...... Sheep??.....in Japan?? haha..

 

Anyway, I look at BC breeding as analogous to buying a LandCruiser. If you're going buy one why not just find one that has triple locking differentials (the real off-road deal) instead of one unlocked despite the fact you probably will never ever use the lockers. I want a BC that is the real deal even though I know he'll probably never see a sheep in his life...

 

My locked LandCruiser and apparently "locked" BC......

 

[Liz P]

Actually, there are people in Japan training their dogs on stock and competing with them. I can get you in touch with someone who has gone over there to teach clinics.

[Tea]

The Mob meets the ACK

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Rocko grab da man’s thumb……Now I am a patient man……..I am going to let yoos try to figure dis out on your own, because I am reasonable.-

Dis here workin freakin dogs dey are called?.....

Can’t hear ya

Rocko move your fist outta da guys mouth………..

Dats right dey are Border Collie dogs.

Now your kinda dogs…dem dogs …what are dey called?

No, that’s not wat dey are called, smart guy.

So now, wat are dey called?

Whataya mean ya don’t know?

Rocko, I can’t unda-stand him because your fist is still in his mouth, move yos fist…..

Ok….Guy…dem dogs are anyting…yoos can call dem anything EXCEPT what…….?

Dats right…anyting but Border Collie dogs

Ya see paly, dats not so hard……Don’t forget now…Or we will be back, brother and not so unda-standing as today.

ok…Let em up Rocko.

Hey, nice wall paper in here, ya know…really high class establishment.

Hey I’ll give ya one more piece of advice, never piss off a sheep dairy. Man dos guys are mean. And dey give us ricotta for free, kinda in exchange for our services. Ya know?

[gcv-border]

B Point - love the vehicle. I need it -- with the 16 inches of snow we got 6 days ago, we are still walking in and out. I live about a mile back from the road and the last ~0.3 miles is up a steep hill.

[alligande]

Anyone else notice that we seem to have lost the OP....

[GentleLake]

That seems to happen pretty regularly in this type of discussion.

[Tommy Coyote]

Yea. OP will be back one day with another question just like this one. I think they just do to see how much of a rise they can get out the people here.

 

But this turned into a good discussion, I think.

 

What do you mean when you say a dog is a "hot mess?"

 

I am just tempted to tell people who come on the boards wanting to know about a specific agility dog breeder that they need to go to a board that is geared just to agility. Those people will know who the good or bad breeders are. We don't. We don't have anything to do with them.

 

If what they want is to really get into agility and that is all they want to do then just let them go do agility and go to the breeders that the other agility people go to.

[Root Beer]

Isn't one of the points of the board to educate those who are currently unaware about the Border Collie as a working dog?

 

Chances are slim that I will ever do anything other than sports with my Border Collies, but I still consider it a very good thing to know some things about how the breed was developed and how the traits that make the Border Collie unique can be continued.

 

Some will be receptive to a point of view to which they have not yet been exposed and others will not.

 

Still, I personally think it's a conversation very much worth having. And I agree - this has been a good discussion. No matter what the OP decides, I'd still say the discussion has borne much good fruit.

[GentleLake]

I totally agree, Kristine.

 

People aren't born knowing these things. If they come here and ask, then I think we owe it to them to present our point of view.

 

That doesn't guarantee they'll embrace it, but it won't be because they no longer know.

 

And it's quite possible that they'll get it down the road, even if they don't today. I saw that happen over and over with students when I was teaching. Seemed like things weren't sinking in, then I'd run into someone a semester or a year later and they'd tell me how it all clicked into place for them afterwards. It was a good feeling to know that it had made a difference after all.

[Tess's Girl]

I know many of you have been a part of these boards for years. I've lurked for a little over a year and dug into the archives, and it seems like the only people who post are those who want to argue or disagree with the POV of the boards.

 

But I just wanted those of you who answer every question and and open up to discussion to every person that comes through here that you don't do it in vain. I always knew that I wanted a Border Collie and when I started to look for one I knew enough to stay away with from puppy mills and BYB but that was about it. I originally began my search with AKC breeder of merits. I didn't know that there was anything else.

 

I happened upon bordercollie.org and then the forums and my views were drastically changed. I didn't realize there was a world besides the AKC but I was happy to find out there was.

 

So even when OP of topics like this disappear or disagree, your words don't fall on deaf ears. If I hadn't found this site I, no doubt, would have ended up with an AKC collie. I also probably would not have ended up going to the Bluegrass Classic last year and being completely blown away. I've lived in Lexington for almost 5 years and didn't even know the trial existed. It was absolutely breathtaking and I didn't even get to see the finals. I can't imagine seeking out anything other than a working bred Border Collie now. Thankfully, you all put me on the right track.

[Sekah]

True. The difference to me would be more first hand experience. 98% of BCs that I know personally are sport, confo or pet bred. The latter two leave me cold but I love a lot of the sporter collies I know. The one working bred one I know is intensely stressed whenever I see it out and about and it isn't a happy dog. I'd be foolish to get a dog without being intimately familiar with its lines so, given my current situation and if I were to get a pup tomorrow, I'd go sport breeder. Maybe that'll change one day when and if I get to see and interact with more work-bred BCs in the performance world.

 

It's one thing to be told something, but it's another thing to be shown it and given the opportunity to experience it yourself.

[juliepoudrier]

Sekah,

I don't know where you live, but if you ever get the chance, please go to one or more USBCHA sheepdog trials. You'll see lots of beautiful, well adjusted, amazing working bred border collies. Granted, it won't be the same as actually working with one in your sport of choice, but I still think it could be educational.

 

http://www.usbcha.com/sheep/upcoming_trials.html

 

Tess' Girl,

Are you planning to come to the Bluegrass this year? I'll be setting sheep on the novice field (if you saw any of the novice/nursery classes last year, that was me setting sheep then too).

 

J.

[Flamincomet]

I am not endorsing sports breeding, but statements that sports bred dogs are all hyper, neurotic or difficult to live with isn't what most sports people find, or they wouldn't keep looking to sports breeders for their puppies. Telling them something that flies in the face of their experience isn't a good way to get them to listen to the argument to get a working bred dog. Instead, tell them what is special and worthy about working bred dogs and the importance of continuing to breed for the work. It is already an uphill battle without making sports people think you don't know what you're talking about.

 

 

I'm reading generalisations about sport bred dogs that I really don't recognise, neither do I recognise the implication that working bred dogs are absolute paragons.

 

But that is my experience with border collies bred for sports, and many other's as well. The breeder I got my sports dog from is still regarded as a very reputable breeder and competes regularly in agility competitions. My personal experience is that when I got my sports collie, I thought that type of behavior was the norm for this breed, and it was constantly reinforced by the members of the local kennel club as well as the agility competitors I knew. My perspective changed completely when I rescued my first border collie, and even more drastically when I got my first working bred border collie. Now when I tell AKC people I have a border collie and they ask me how many hours/miles per day I run him I just roll my eyes, but there was a time that I took that question seriously, and I know many other sports border collie people who do as well.

 

I've also been on these boards for years, and I rarely hear people say we shouldn't talk truthfully about our experiences with show collies, why are sports collies any different? I'm sure sports collies can make wonderful pets, as can show collies, but the point is they are bred for different things, and there are issues that come with that. If you're willing to deal with that that's great for you, but you should at least be informed.

[dogrsqr]

Ok, so I'm just gonna throw this out there and probably get BBQ'd.

 

I only have rescued dogs, currently on our 3rd and 4th BCs. I've have dabbled at herding with the two BCs that are/were mine, not my husband's. I have trialed a couple of times only in AKC. My herding instructor does trial mostly in Border Collie trials, but does support the local club's AKC trials. I think mostly to at least give people a place to start and hopefully to have her students and their dogs show some actual ability. While my dog has some herding ability and is definitely not a Barbie collie, I don't really know where she came from. I assume some farm in southern Wisconsin/Northern Illinois. That said I don't think we would ever have what it takes to work big fields. I just don't think she has that kind of confidence, nor do we have that kind of time to train and access to sheep.

 

So my question is this .... even if you are breeding for working ability are all of the pups born with the same abilities? Aren't there some things out of any humans control that will make one dog better at herding than another? Do you ever get a dog that just doesn't care about sheep? or one you just can't get to work under control? Seems like there are dogs that get rehomed because they aren't right to be working dogs.

 

I personally really enjoy doing the "chores" type of herding. It is clear to me why we are doing things. The artificial .... go here, put the sheep thru that, go on to there, etc. type of herding doesn't make sense to me even though I can see that there are practical uses for some of the parts.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes there is a bit of an off-putting attitude in responses. Sometimes people might be asking a legitimate question and not trying to get a rise out of people.

 

Gina and Abbey

[dogrsqr]

I actually think the over the top, can't relax sport Border Collies are a result of the training that's going on in agility. Many of the top trainers make you think your dog needs to be all jacked up and out of control in order to be fast. I do not agree. I think that if all that energy were put into focus the dog could be much more efficient and life would be a lot calmer.

 

Gina and Abbey

But that is my experience with border collies bred for sports, and many other's as well. The breeder I got my sports dog from is still regarded as a very reputable breeder and competes regularly in agility competitions. My personal experience is that when I got my sports collie, I thought that type of behavior was the norm for this breed, and it was constantly reinforced by the members of the local kennel club as well as the agility competitors I knew. My perspective changed completely when I rescued my first border collie, and even more drastically when I got my first working bred border collie. Now when I tell AKC people I have a border collie and they ask me how many hours/miles per day I run him I just roll my eyes, but there was a time that I took that question seriously, and I know many other sports border collie people who do as well.

 

I've also been on these boards for years, and I rarely hear people say we shouldn't talk truthfully about our experiences with show collies, why are sports collies any different? I'm sure sports collies can make wonderful pets, as can show collies, but the point is they are bred for different things, and there are issues that come with that. If you're willing to deal with that that's great for you, but you should at least be informed.

[alligande]

I actually think the over the top, can't relax sport Border Collies are a result of the training that's going on in agility. Many of the top trainers make you think your dog needs to be all jacked up and out of control in order to be fast. I do not agree. I think that if all that energy were put into focus the dog could be much more efficient and life would be a lot calmer.

 

Gina and Abbey

You might be onto something with this, I have a very high drive dog who I keep very calm before entering the ring all those mad tugging fools, I do my best to stay well away to keep my dog blood pressure down. I don't do tricks we just hang out get a rub, maybe play a little leave it game with treats, once we enter the ring though its another story, he is as fast and as driven a dog as you could want. If I jacked him up with tug he would be so high that he would not be able to focus on getting round the course, there is nothing calm in our runs, they are are on the edge of disaster at any moment, but he does start with a brain. He does get to play tug as a reward and as a game during the long waits, but tug is dessert not the appetizer.

[mtnfrank]

I personally really enjoy doing the "chores" type of herding. It is clear to me why we are doing things. The artificial .... go here, put the sheep thru that, go on to there, etc. type of herding doesn't make sense to me even though I can see that there are practical uses for some of the parts.

 

ABCA video on how trial work relates to practical work

[Shetlander]

I've also been on these boards for years, and I rarely hear people say we shouldn't talk truthfully about our experiences with show collies, why are sports collies any different? I'm sure sports collies can make wonderful pets, as can show collies, but the point is they are bred for different things, and there are issues that come with that. If you're willing to deal with that that's great for you, but you should at least be informed.

 

My point wasn’t that you shouldn’t talk truthfully about your experiences. My point was that most sports people I know are very happy with their sports bred dogs. I also hear comments about how Border Collies need hours of exercise but not from other sports bred owners. Rather it is people who have never owned a Border Collie of any variety. One of my favorite conversations on the topic was at the office where I can bring my dogs. A dog loving visitor admired Quinn, then went on at some length about how much exercise Border Collies need and most people can’t handle them and they are very hyper. All this while, Quinn stood at my side, listening to him attentively. The guy finally trailed off and noticed “But…your dog seems…really… mellow.”

 

I believe the people who tell me there is a big difference between working bred and sports bred. What I don’t find is that the sports bred dogs I know are neurotic, with no off switch, constantly on the go, unable to focus, etc. Perhaps it varies throughout the country as far as how sports bred dogs act, but from what I see around here, they are not messes, however else they may differ from working bred dogs. So, again, back to my point, since so many sports people are happy with their sports bred dogs or may know several very nicely behaved sports bred dogs (at least in my region), saying sports bred dogs are wrecks isn’t a good way to begin a persuasive discussion why they should switch to working bred. But maybe it would be much more effective in your region where the dogs sound very different than around here.

[GentleLake]

So my question is this .... even if you are breeding for working ability are all of the pups born with the same abilities? Aren't there some things out of any humans control that will make one dog better at herding than another? Do you ever get a dog that just doesn't care about sheep? or one you just can't get to work under control? Seems like there are dogs that get rehomed because they aren't right to be working dogs.

 

 

No. They're not all born with the same abilities. Nor are all pups bred from AKC (or other KC) conformation champions of show quality, either.

 

Breeding is never 100% predictable or successful. Good breeders breed what they believe will be the best combination to produce what they're looking for. But it doesn't always happen as planned. Speaking again of working bred border collies, sometimes you'll get a fantastic dog or even a whole litter, but there will often be duds that just didn't get the right combination of genes. And sometimes a fantastic dog will come from a less than carefully thought out breeding, though it won't happen as often.

 

But the best chance of getting what you're looking for -- and preserving the the working ability of our dogs as well as the "package" that makes border collies border collies -- will be for responsible breeders to carefully choose their breeding stock based on their abilities and to eliminate the duds from the breeding population.

[Flamincomet]

I actually think the over the top, can't relax sport Border Collies are a result of the training that's going on in agility. Many of the top trainers make you think your dog needs to be all jacked up and out of control in order to be fast. I do not agree. I think that if all that energy were put into focus the dog could be much more efficient and life would be a lot calmer.

 

Gina and Abbey

 

I definitely agree this could be part of it, but that wasn't the case with my sports collie, and in fact the breeder and their mentor were always saying how important it is to teach a border collie to relax and go slow, so it doesn't sound like that's the problem with their sports collies either. My dog was not under-stimulated, but he was still constantly pacing the house 95% of the time. I e-mailed the breeder and mentor all the time, and even met with them at shows to see how they handled in person, and the mentor told me that most agility people would kill for a dog like this... As he was lunging and screaming at any dog who walked into his sight. I'm sure there are breeders out there that, while I may not agree with their breeding philosophy for this breed, breed wonderful, stable dogs. But the OP asked about sports collies in general, not only the best of the best. And to that point, some people DO consider the sports breeder I'm talking about to be one of the best.

[B Point]

Actually, there are people in Japan training their dogs on stock and competing with them. I can get you in touch with someone who has gone over there to teach clinics.

Please Please pretty Please Liz!! That would be a great help indeed!! Thank you..

[B Point]

B Point - love the vehicle. I need it -- with the 16 inches of snow we got 6 days ago, we are still walking in and out. I live about a mile back from the road and the last ~0.3 miles is up a steep hill.

 

Yes...slightly off topic for a minute...but, the LandCruiser has really been put to use this winter. We just had two storms drop around 2 meters of snow and everything ground to a halt for four days with 23 deaths over last weekend. Crazy stories of people stuck in their vehicles on expressways for 3 or 4 days....

[Sue R]

 

I know many of you have been a part of these boards for years. I've lurked for a little over a year and dug into the archives, and it seems like the only people who post are those who want to argue or disagree with the POV of the boards.

 

But I just wanted those of you who answer every question and and open up to discussion to every person that comes through here that you don't do it in vain. I always knew that I wanted a Border Collie and when I started to look for one I knew enough to stay away with from puppy mills and BYB but that was about it. I originally began my search with AKC breeder of merits. I didn't know that there was anything else.

 

I happened upon bordercollie.org and then the forums and my views were drastically changed. I didn't realize there was a world besides the AKC but I was happy to find out there was.

 

So even when OP of topics like this disappear or disagree, your words don't fall on deaf ears. If I hadn't found this site I, no doubt, would have ended up with an AKC collie. I also probably would not have ended up going to the Bluegrass Classic last year and being completely blown away. I've lived in Lexington for almost 5 years and didn't even know the trial existed. It was absolutely breathtaking and I didn't even get to see the finals. I can't imagine seeking out anything other than a working bred Border Collie now. Thankfully, you all put me on the right track.