Border Collie Breeder!!! :)

[bcnewe2]

Because if you get a border collie that is bred for anything other than working stock, NOT THAT YOU HAVE TO HERD WITH YOUR DOG you will only be getting the spine and cover of a book. Even if you can't read don't you want a book with words? Using Eileen's parable.

[Flamincomet]

Now what if I am interested in doing agility, obedience, etc. I mean if I were to get a BC I would make plans for the BC to herd, but I don't have personal sheep of my own, so I don't "need" a BC to actually herd for me. I still do not see why BC's bred for herding are better than bred for sports. What if some people want a BC that is better at agility rather than herding>

 

I hope I can explain why choosing a working bred border collie is IMO a much better choice than choosing a sport bred, especially if you want to compete in agility and other performance events.

 

I currently have a working bred border collie from very respected lines. When I decided to get him, my plans were agility and obedience first, and herding if I could find an instructor close enough to me. Before I actually picked him up from the breeder, I decided to train him as my service dog as well. He is very biddable, I've never had or known a dog with a higher desire to please, he is extremely intelligent, he is sweet tempered, and he is very calm in the house but also has VERY high drive when I need it. Now that he is mature, I don't think I could have a better dog for my goals, and the only thing he was specifically bred for is working ability, probably my last priority right now due to access issues. But, the working ability he was bred for also makes him the perfect dog for my goals with him. You need a biddable, intelligent dog, who can settle, with a nice temperament to work in a service dog position. Having a biddable, intelligent dog with a high drive and desire to please also helps a lot in agility and obedience events. We are taking agility classes now, and this dog is going to be FAST, he has DRIVE, and he is intelligent and biddable enough to be a pleasure to work with. If anything he has more drive than most people would know what to do with, even sports people.

 

Now, I used to own a border collie who was bred for sports. He came from the mentee of a very well known agility competitor and trainer in my area, who even owned several dogs from this breeding (they kept repeating it). My plans were to compete in agility and obedience. I was not able to accomplish either of these goals. I couldn't even take an agility class with this dog. He could NOT settle, was constantly pacing, was severely reactive, and almost impossible to work with around other dogs. He brought me to tears on many occasions. Based on many people who I have talked to about these lines, this specific breeding, and sports collies in general, this is not uncommon, and in fact may even be more common than not. Sports collies are bred for contained neuroticism.

 

I think that people who breed sports collies are missing a piece of the puzzle. They aren't breeding mentally sound border collies, because they aren't breeding border collies. Breeding a high drive, highly intelligent dog like a border collie can already go very wrong even when you know what you're doing. But start taking out chunks of what makes this breed what it is, and you are flirting with disaster. Either you'll end up with a lobotomized black and white golden retriever (the show collies) or you'll end up with a dog constantly on the edge of a mental breakdown. Now I've met sports collies who are not neurotic, but I've also met working bred border collies who can't herd. It's not the goal, but it happens. You're better off buying a dog from a reputable working breeder, and you'll also be supporting the continuation of what makes this breed the breed that we all love.

[Sekah]

Me too. On what did you insist? On what did you compromise?

 

Thus far I have only had exposure to sporter collies and have for the most part really liked what I've seen as far as temperament, structure and sport performance goes.

 

I'm quoting myself because I'm hoping to have someone describe this to me. For those of you who a) wanted a dog as a sports prospect and b ) wanted to buy your sports prospect from a working breeder, what was the process like? What did you look for? Did you insist the breeding or pups had certain characteristics? Did you have to compromise on anything to get a sports [e]bred prospect pup from a working breeder? Health testing? ENS?

[mum24dog]

Now what if I am interested in doing agility, obedience, etc. I mean if I were to get a BC I would make plans for the BC to herd, but I don't have personal sheep of my own, so I don't "need" a BC to actually herd for me. I still do not see why BC's bred for herding are better than bred for sports. What if some people want a BC that is better at agility rather than herding>

To reiterate what people have tried to explain -

 

A border collie is a dog that has been bred to work stock.

 

If you breed for anything other than stock work you will end up with a dog that may look like a border collie but isn't the same breed at all because it will not have the working qualities that define the breed. If you buy one of those dogs you will be deluding yourself if you think you have a real border collie.

 

There is nothing wrong in principle with breeding sport dogs as opposed to dogs that are bred to work. What is wrong is the mistaken assumption that they are all the same breed.

 

I don't want or need a dog that will work stock and I wouldn't pay top prices for a dog to do agility whether from a working or sport breeder. A working type adolescent from a rescue with the signs of talent for the sport will suit me every time.

[GentleLake]

Did you have to compromise on anything to get a sports bred pup from a working breeder?

 

You won't get a sports bred pup from a working breeder.

 

Many working bred dogs are in sports, but they come from people who are breeding first and foremost for working dogs.

 

Sports bred dogs will be something else.

[Pippin's person]

You might find this thread relevant to the question of some of the differences.

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=35492&hl=airbear&do=findComment&comment=447538

 

The third entry is from someone who competes at the highest levels in both agility and stockdog trials with a working bred dog. She usually has smart insights about the consequences of the different breeding goals and speaks from experience with both activities.

[SS Cressa]

 

I'm quoting myself because I'm hoping to have someone describe this to me. For those of you who a) wanted a dog as a sports prospect and b ) wanted to buy your sports prospect from a working breeder, what was the process like? What did you look for? Did you insist the breeding or pups had certain characteristics? Did you have to compromise on anything to get a sports [e]bred prospect pup from a working breeder? Health testing? ENS?

I do agility(AKC/USDAA national level) and herding and have had: farm bred border collie, sports bred border collie, and working bred border collie.

 

What flamingcomet said about sport collie in my opinion is true for the majority of sports breeder. You can find some good breeder who produce normal border collies but a lot of sport border collies seem to have temperament/psychological issues. Also one thing that really burn me was sport breeders enjoy bending the truth. I went with working parents this last time since I wanted someone who I could trust and someone who didn't know all the "right answers to give". While yes I would LOVE to have gotten a nice stack picture and have my pup EST and puppy tested and the 7 system. I realized what I did is more a chance thing since getting a person not familar with stacking dogs or evaluating their working dogs, like sports breeder should be able to do, is near impossible. I trusted that a dog that is kennel and is able to relax and chill when they aren't needed in their runs yet still be able to some months work every single day for hours on end covering god knows how many miles. Say a lot for the temperment And structure of the dog. A dog poorly built I don't think would be able to handle it. And a bad temperament wouldn't last. Idk if I need to get into more detail?! Or if that help? So I guess I threw out some of the things I asked for with the sports breeder and just trusted the breeder to place an appropriate puppy with me. And Tbh she did a great job placing all the pup.

I do know my two non sports bred dogs are amazing. And my youngest is everything I was hoping my sport bred one would have been like. I have found the working breeder to be more supportive when I run into any issues rather than just blaming the owner that seems to be sport breeder moto. just my 2 cents.

[JaderBug]

This is a video of the an AKC dog herding sheep.

 

This is a video of an ABCA border collie that has been bred for stock work competing at the highest level of a USBCHA trial. (Scott Glen and Don are actually the 2013 National Champions)

 

ACK border collies are not bred for working ability. They are bred to meet a breed standard. Sport dogs are bred to compete in sports. The eccense of a border collie is its unmatched stock working ability.

 

Border collies bred for sports and show are not border collies in my opinion.

 

You have recieved some good tips to finding a good working border collie breeder for your next sport partner.

 

This post is not getting enough recognition. These videos are evidence enough, there really doesn't need to be any more discussion than watching them.

 

But since words and videos continue to fail...

 

BCLover2000, everything you love about Border Collies exists because of working livestock. Their intelligence, speed, agility, stamina, desire to please, heart, etc. all exists because all of it was needed to create a superior working stock dog. You cannot achieve those traits by breeding for looks, or breeding for a special ability to jump a pole or run through a nylon tunnel because you're selecting for one or two traits, where herding ability engulfs and requires all of them. If you're not breeding for working ability, you're breeding away from what the breed is and you are losing some of those traits that make this breed great.

 

If you're looking for a dog to do agility with, why not go to the source of what made these dogs capable of excelling at sports in the first place? Completely regardless of if you ever plan on putting the dog to stock.

 

Also, as you breed away from working ability, you lose some of the stability that stock work requires. As you select for a couple of factors and ignore others, you'll get other traits that show up that aren't being kept in check anymore, i.e. psychotic sports bred dogs who can't function like a normal dog because they're wired to be wound up all the time. Border Collies are quirky enough- show and sports breeding only exacerbate the 'quirks' and take them to the extreme.

 

It's a package deal- and if you're not getting the full package, you're getting cheated.

[Blackdawgs]

I purchased a pup from working lines in Sept 2012. I've been very pleased with the dog. He made his agility debut in January. i started him at CPE level 2 and in 3 shows he graduated to level 3 in standard, jumpers, and gamblers. He makes his USDAA debut next weekend and i think that those courses will suit him much better than the very tight CPE courses.

 

When I was pup shopping, I had no trouble finding working people who were willing to talk and sell to me, although finding a pup from a health tested litter was a challenge. I persisted and wound up with a very nice pup that was chosen for me based on my very detailed description of my needs. The breeder sent me EXACTLY what I asked for.

 

An aquaintance purchased a sports bred pup a few months previous and we had gone on several outings together and I was frankly shocked by the amount of fear and spookiness that the dog showed despite very intensive socialization as a pup by the breeder. I know of a pup from the same sports breeder, but unrelated genetics, who is noise sensitive.

 

I know of another sports bred dog that was bred for world team potential that was frankly unmanageable as a youngster. The owner tried all sorts of drugs and now at 7 or 8 years old, the owner is finally able to get the dog around an agility course.

 

But, hey, these dogs all have speed and drive up the wazoo and tug tug tug and that's the important thing, eh?

 

I will say that the sports bred dogs that I am familiar with are very very fast, but as i've told my aquaintance with the sports bred dog, all the speed in the world is worthless if you can't handle it. My working bred dog is not as fast as the sport bred dogs (although he is plenty fast and will be very competative if * I* get my act together)--the difference is that he is BIDDABLE and tries his little heart out to do what I ask as opposed to mindlessly running, spinning, and barking.

 

My guy is very very tempermentally stable, no noise sensitivity, no wierd quirks, no "herding" humans or other dogs, , and seems to recover from things that frighten him pretty quickly. When working, he is very very focused on the task. Although his puppy hood was very rocky, he startled settling in the house at ~1 year old and I think that at 2.5-3 years will be a dream to live with. He does have issues with arousal and impulse control, though.

 

I come from the horse world most recently dabbling in dressage. Time and time again, I saw overweight middle aged woman spending a bundle on very expensive warmbloods with huge gaits, but these woman were unable to to ride these beasts. Now, i see the same trend in the agility world, people are buying these superdogs and they can't handle them because they are too damn fast and the dogs are spinning, and barking, and biting because they are so frustrated at their handlers who have purchased more speed, drive, and quirkiness than they can handle.

 

I really think that one is better off buying the total package (biddability, temperment, athletiscism, common sense, CONTROLLABLE prey drive, ability and willingness to work at a distance) in a well bred working dog and shaping the agility. With my dog, transfering the prey drive to toys and the toy drive to agility was easy peasy.

[Eileen Stein]

Like I said in my original post I do not know much about choosing a good breeder, I turned to this forum for advice and help, but I still don't quite understand. I have gotten some good advice, but for the most part all I am reading is how sport bred dogs are not good or are not "real" BC's and herding bred dogs are good... but... WHY? I just need someone to better elaborate for me. I am not as experienced as all of you in this field, so pardon me if I don't quite understand your reasonings.

 

You say you don't understand, but I don't understand WHY you don't understand. Explain it better for me.

 

But seriously, let's try this: YOU try to explain OUR point of view, based on what you've read in this thread and in the other readings we suggested. Just pretend you're explaining to a friend what these people think, and what their reasons are for thinking it. Try to do it justice, to the best of your ability, just as if you were an advocate of our position. Begin your post by saying, "This is what these people think, and why they think it."

 

That should make it clear what it is you're not understanding, and help us to "better elaborate."

[mum24dog]

I'm reading generalisations about sport bred dogs that I really don't recognise, neither do I recognise the implication that working bred dogs are absolute paragons.

 

I have a friend with 2 sport bred agility dogs. The first is keen and driven and absolutely rock solid in temperament. You couldn't wish for a more biddable dog.

 

Her other dog (son of the first) is a screaming nightmare to run, but still biddable. Whether she can handle him well enough to get the best out of him remains to be seen. He has the potential to do extremely well and she is a good trainer but he isn't much like his dad. But she loves him anyway, which is all that really matters.

 

Most sport bred dogs I know fall within the range of her two dogs, as do most of the working bred dogs I come across in connection with agility. Someone else I know has a working and a sport bred dog and says her working bred one is far more spooky than the other. She can handle the sport bred one fine but the other is too wild and wilful for her but it proves nothing that can be extrapolated from.

 

What turns me away from sport bred dogs is the fact that I prefer a dog to have more physical substance than one bred for extreme height to weight ratio and excessive flexibility - something more robust if you will.

[Shetlander]

I have only known true working bred dogs very superficially -- from Quinn's sheep lessons -- so I can't really comment on what they are like, but I totally understand that dogs should be bred for the work. All the dogs I know well are sports bred and they are all nice companions and most do very well in sports. I have met only one without an off switch.

 

I am not endorsing sports breeding, but statements that sports bred dogs are all hyper, neurotic or difficult to live with isn't what most sports people find, or they wouldn't keep looking to sports breeders for their puppies. Telling them something that flies in the face of their experience isn't a good way to get them to listen to the argument to get a working bred dog. Instead, tell them what is special and worthy about working bred dogs and the importance of continuing to breed for the work. It is already an uphill battle without making sports people think you don't know what you're talking about.

[border_collie_crazy]

I have been disconnected from my local sport area for a long time, I started competing again a year ago, but only taking the odd class for various location experience basically, and training on my own and going to trials on my own. I have a sporter collie however she is only 1 generation from working bred(dad was 1 gen. sport bred, mom was working bred, the pairing was for sports) and she is going on 14..long retired. going to trials I was SHOCKED to see what happened to "sporter collies" I was around a LOT of "sporter collies" 10 years ago and I liked them, some were crazy but most were good workable dogs. I went to trial last weekend and was really confused when a sporter collie owner and instructor started telling me how "border collies don't generalize" and how you can't just teach them what a "jump" is and what the command means, you have to teach them what a jump is against a wall, what a jump is against a fence, what a jump is in the middle of a room, and all these things from every direction(that part I get). I was baffled..I have never had such an issue with a border collie..or any dog..just how stupid are these new sporter collies around here that they can't understand that a jump moved over 3 inches is still a jump? my current trial dog, Gem, is a shelter dog, a Heeler/GSD and she ain't that stupid..last weekend I bumped her from advanced to excellent in rally, this meant a regular bar jump to a broad jump...sent from a distance. she's only ever seen a broad jump like once in her life, and that was before I could send her to anything from a distance, so I had to just hope to hell that she understood that "go jump" meant go jump whatever the heck I just pointed at, and she did without hesitation. I have always compared Gem to my Border Collies, my BCs would have done the same thing Gem did.

 

in that entire trial there was only 1 Border Collie that wasn't a hot mess. the border collie I know excels at anything you want to do, all these sporter collies got their butts handed to them..in rally obedience...by WHIPPETS. and all these folks acted like this was normal border collie behaviour..like "ohh pfft, you can't expect a BORDER COLLIE to be able to handle obedience"......

 

breeding for work is what makes these dogs versatile, and in my area, apparently breeding them for sports made them too stupid to be versatile...oh but they can run really really fast!!

[Pippin's person]

Liz, I appreciate your perspective a great deal. What I have found challenging is that my friends and acquaintances simply don't believe me when I have tried to explain those points. My experience is they care a lot more about the specific dogs that they love and the specific socialization those dogs received by their breeders than about the broad principles involved. It could well be that I'm not effective in trying to explain why I believe it matters, but I think it's as much that what I'm trying to describe is so far outside of most people's experience of what is possible with these dogs that they just can't understand what I'm describing (not because they are stupid or willfully ignorant or full of malfeasance--just because they dont understand the context for which the discussion matters).

 

Someone I knew well, respected, and who had fundamentally agreed with me when we discussed these issues loved one of my working bred dogs and trained him up in agility. Said things like "national team caliber" about him (no claims whatsoever on the veracity of that). She also trained with other people who had working bred dogs running agility and loved them--specifically their particular combination of athleticism, biddability and problem-solving. When she decided to breed her sport-bred bitch? Straight to one of the breeders frequently discussed here who puts "herding" titles on her show champions to show the versatility of the breeding program she follows. The pups are speedy little things, flexible, and delightful companions. Nice dogs and their people adore them. But they are constitutionally different from our working bred dogs--in ways that are unfortunately ineffable to describe without the experiential background to provide a context.

 

A number of serious competitors I know reasonably well in stockdog circles mostly don't care about sport breeding. They find novice breeding of poorly bred (or untalented) working border collies of much greater consequence to the pool of working dogs.

 

I've come to find it all hard to continue to engage with sometimes and would mostly rather use my time and energy to train my dogs, learn the craft, deepen my understanding of sheep. Occasionally, like now, old habits get the better of me.

 

People like the OP have the same access to information as the rest of us. Eileen's suggestion to try and explain the position as if you held it is a great idea (for those of us on this side of the discussion, too!). SS Cressa's point about the differences in the people doing the breeding is also great.

 

Sometimes it just takes time (did for me and others in this discussion as well). OP, if you want to understand the difference, you'll probably have the best luck going to observe the different types on your own and talking face to face with people who have them. And then, armed with the information you've gathered, your own ethics will ultimately have to be your guide.

[Shetlander]

breeding for work is what makes these dogs versatile, and in my area, apparently breeding them for sports made them too stupid to be versatile...oh but they can run really really fast!!

 

Well, if that is the case, sports people should eventually become more interested in working bred dogs. We are nowhere near that point in my area from what I can tell.

 

What I have found challenging is that my friends and acquaintances simply don't believe me when I have tried to explain those points. My experience is they care a lot more about the specific dogs that they love and the specific socialization those dogs received by their breeders than about the broad principles involved.

 

Very true. I think there is also a fear of the unknown. Sports people know sports dogs. And like you say, they love their sports dogs. Until they start to not like what they are seeing in their sports bred dogs, getting them to switch to working bred is a real uphill battle.

[GentleLake]

 

 

A number of serious competitors I know reasonably well in stockdog circles mostly don't care about sport breeding. They find novice breeding of poorly bred (or untalented) working border collies of much greater consequence to the pool of working dogs.

 

This makes a lot of sense, of course. Since most of the sports breeders aren't bringing working dogs back into their lines -- and, more importantly, working breeders aren't bringing sports bred dogs into their lines -- sports bred dogs will have little to no effect on the quality of working dogs.

 

But, yes, bad breeders of working dogs, many of whose pups will be sold to unsuspecting working-dog-illiterate people -- many of whom will go on to indiscriminately breed their dogs -- is indeed a real concern.

[border_collie_crazy]

shetlander- near as I can tell everyone around here is just swiching breeds, seeing a border collie in dog sports has become the exception. I'm competing in Rally and Agility and in a year now of trialling again, last weekend was the first time I saw any BCs at all!

[rushdoggie]

in that entire trial there was only 1 Border Collie that wasn't a hot mess. the border collie I know excels at anything you want to do, all these sporter collies got their butts handed to them..in rally obedience...by WHIPPETS. and all these folks acted like this was normal border collie behaviour..like "ohh pfft, you can't expect a BORDER COLLIE to be able to handle obedience"......

 

Interesting, but its not what I see here in the PNW at all. Most AKC/performance and even conf type dogs are heavily involved with an excel in obedience and rally and also tracking and agility. I don't see out of control dogs or dogs with no off switch. I see nice dogs with nice owners who are involved in a culture and community that differs from the Board philosophy and who would benefit from learning more and understanding it.

 

I have to agree with Shetlander that generalizations about sports bred dogs being neurotic or difficult to live with isn't the experience of the folks you would most like to educate. It makes them feel you are insulting their dogs and just being sour grapes. Focusing on what is special and unique about working bred dogs and why its essential to breed for the work is a better plan.

[border_collie_crazy]

Interesting, but its not what I see here in the PNW at all. Most AKC/performance and even conf type dogs are heavily involved with an excel in obedience and rally and also tracking and agility. I don't see out of control dogs or dogs with no off switch. I see nice dogs with nice owners who are involved in a culture and community that differs from the Board philosophy and who would benefit from learning more and understanding it.

 

oh I don't doubt that, that's why I specified "my area" lol. I had always LIKED "sporter" collies previously! my Happy is a sport collie, she's awesome, she is smart, focused, driven, good off switch, and extremely versatile, coming back into the local sport scene was like..."what happened?" lol

[mum24dog]

I went to trial last weekend and was really confused when a sporter collie owner and instructor started telling me how "border collies don't generalize" and how you can't just teach them what a "jump" is and what the command means, you have to teach them what a jump is against a wall, what a jump is against a fence, what a jump is in the middle of a room, and all these things from every direction(that part I get). I was baffled..I have never had such an issue with a border collie..or any dog..just how stupid are these new sporter collies around here that they can't understand that a jump moved over 3 inches is still a jump?

 

 

I understand what she means and have seen it many times in the hundreds of dogs we have had through our classes, although I would say rather that you can't automatically assume that a dog will generalise, especially if that dog is a BC. It's nothing to do with whether a dog is sport or working bred and it isn't a question of intelligence; it's just the result of breeding in intense focus over such a long time. They want to work with you and they want to please.

 

Many BCs like predictability in their world. They are happy if they think they understand what is expected of them and when it is supposed to happen. That's why BCs do so well in competitive Obedience where they can switch to autopilot.

 

Just because a jump is a jump is a jump to you it doesn't mean that a dog will see it the same way. If it believes that what you want it to do is jump that particular jump in that specific way and in that spot it will keep doing that until the cows (or sheep) come home.

 

Maybe it's more a lack of perception in humans. We just see a jump, plus another jump, without recognising the differences that a dog will see and smell. We cannot hope to imagine what their world is like since all we have is our own extremely limited senses to experience it. Maybe our dogs are thinking "Just how stupid are these humans?"

 

A lot of frustration can be avoided if that is understood. Too often a handler gets mad at a dog because they think it "ought" to understand in the same way a human would.

 

It's not inevitable though and a dog that is used to taking life as it comes rather than having a set routine, coupled with training that incorporates a lot of variety can become less literally inclined.

[border_collie_crazy]

mom24dog, I have been training and competing with various dogs in various sports for 14 years now, with BCs and with other breeds, I have done, Flyball, Agility, Disc, Rally, Obedience, Conformation, retriever training and some herding all at various times(my time out of the sport world wasn't really "out" it was just in different aspects), I have never worked with any dog of any kind that could not generalize that that much of a degree. if Gem had NOT understood that go jump meant go jump, I would not have been surprised since I had never worked that exercise on that that type of jump before, had it been a solid obedience jump vs an agility bar jump, I still would not expect my dog to generalize has they not associated it as a "jump" before. all my current and past dogs as it happens have never had an issue generalizing "jump", but I would not "expect" that of all dogs. what I DO expect a dog to understand is that once they understand solidly what "jump" means, that moving the same jump over 3 inches would not make it a totally new mystical object that has never been seen before. the person that said this, it was in reference to an issue her own sporter collie had because she "forgot that border collies don't generalize"..the trial was in HER building with HER equipment and the dog is 2 years old and been training practically from birth.

[mum24dog]

mom24dog, I have been training and competing with various dogs in various sports for 14 years now, with BCs and with other breeds, I have done, Flyball, Agility, Disc, Rally, Obedience, Conformation, retriever training and some herding all at various times(my time out of the sport world wasn't really "out" it was just in different aspects), I have never worked with any dog of any kind that could not generalize that that much of a degree. if Gem had NOT understood that go jump meant go jump, I would not have been surprised since I had never worked that exercise on that that type of jump before, had it been a solid obedience jump vs an agility bar jump, I still would not expect my dog to generalize has they not associated it as a "jump" before. all my current and past dogs as it happens have never had an issue generalizing "jump", but I would not "expect" that of all dogs. what I DO expect a dog to understand is that once they understand solidly what "jump" means, that moving the same jump over 3 inches would not make it a totally new mystical object that has never been seen before. the person that said this, it was in reference to an issue her own sporter collie had because she "forgot that border collies don't generalize"..the trial was in HER building with HER equipment and the dog is 2 years old and been training practically from birth.

 

 

In that case I would guess that she's been too rigid in her training, although I could be wrong. Of course some dogs are not wired quite right, whatever their breeding.

 

I have a friend whose collie (not sport bred) has a big problem generalising tunnels. He's beaten some of the best instructors in the business.

 

In a typical year we will take on around 50 new dogs of many different breeds but the only ones we find that are by far the most likely to keep repeating the same obstacle over and over when asked to do something else are the collies. Not all by any means, and not always for the ones that do, but it does happen often enough to distinguish the breed from the rest. It's much the same as running round in circles at top speed missing out the jumps can be a lurcher thing. You just adjust your training to take account of the tendency if it crops up.

 

We have only 3 sport bred collies in the club at present, the most we have ever had. The majority are definitely working bred or rescues that are probably working bred. Of the 26 Large dogs currently competing regularly 18 are collies, 1 a Welsh Sheepdog, 1 Springer X Collie, 1 Huntaway X Collie 1 Beardie x Collie, 3 Labs and 1 that looks like it may be a Kelpie cross. And no, we don't select for collies - we don't select at all.

 

So do I think that sport bred collies are more prone to weird behaviour than working bred? No.

[Kian's Mom]

For someone new getting into Border Collies, How do you know if they are sport, working or herding bred? That is if the breeder doesn't do anything with them. I'm assuming the working can only be from someone who actually uses the dogs on the own stock or trials. But if all are ABCA registered how do you tell the difference between the other 2, If I'm correct on the other.

[Gloria Atwater]

For someone new getting into Border Collies, How do you know if they are sport, working or herding bred? That is if the breeder doesn't do anything with them. I'm assuming the working can only be from someone who actually uses the dogs on the own stock or trials. But if all are ABCA registered how do you tell the difference between the other 2, If I'm correct on the other.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "sport, working or herding." To me, herding and working are one and the same. Yes?

 

In a nutshell, if a breeder "doesn't do anything with" their dogs, then I believe they shouldn't be breeding their dogs. There are enough border collies and border collie breeders in the world that nobody should breed dogs just to breed dogs.

 

After all, if a breeder isn't doing anything with their dogs, then what are they breeding for? House pets? Pretty colors? Money?

 

The working border collie is a complex creature that's been purpose-bred for several centuries. If someone is just randomly pairing This Nice Dog and That Pretty Bitch together, then they are paying absolutely no attention to the very genetics that make up the breed. What about stamina? What about keenness? What about heart? What about biddability or toughness or stock sense or feel for sheep? What about a natural outrun, or strong driving, or the ability to diplomatically yet firmly handle ewes with new lambs or cranky rams? What about the vastly intricate webbing of brain matter that creates the "herding instinct?"

 

A working dog comes from parents that work. Period. Whether they run in trials or work on a ranch or farm, their abilities on livestock are known and proven. It's not just the papers that tell you what a dog's heritage is, it's the conduct of the breeder themselves. What do their breeding dogs do? What are they used for? Registering with ABCA just means the parents were registered and the breeder paid the fee. Proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

 

Therefore, a new person should research, listen, ask questions, go to sheepdog trials, talk to other handlers and trainers and become educated on the breed. And buy from someone who "does something" with their dogs. (AKC "herding" does not count.) To get a working pup, buy from working parents.

 

And never ever buy pups from someone who doesn't do anything with their dogs.

 

My two cents, anyhow.

 

~ Gloria

[Sue R]

What Gloria said, on the mark, as usual!