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Border Collie Breeder!!! :)


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Hey All! I have been searching for a good BC breeder near me. I think I may have found a good one: Contact Border Collies. If you guys could give me some feedback on the breeder I would really appreciate it! Or you could direct me to a better or recommended breeder. I am looking for a well bred, and healthy dog. Classic looks, rough coat, B/W. I can't go more than 800-900 in price, and preferably drivable from Southern California, or travel fees not costly. Thanks!! :)

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An "AKC Breeder of Merit". "At Contact Point Border Collies we strive to breed great performance Border Collies."

 

Have you read this? http://www.bordercollie.org/basics/tips.html If you haven't, it will explain why this is not the sort of breeder that most folks here would recommend.

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I don't know of any litters in California at present, but you might contact trainer Suzy Applegate near Sacramento to see if she knows of any nice working litters coming up. Her website is here:
http://www.hoofandpawfarms.com/

Contact Point will not be recommended by anyone on these boards as they are an AKC breeder and their dogs don't actually work.

Best of luck,

Gloria

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I don't know why people here does not approve to the breeders that does not breed for working with sheep cattles etc. I think not everyone who wants to own a BC is particularly interested on sheep herding. Border collie does not always mean sheep or cattles - border collie are so smart that they can do almost everything so why not approve to breeders that breed for a performance dog not a "working dog" I know that BC's are bred to herd, it just not make any sense why people here don't like BC's doing agility and not working with sheep! I don't know if BCLover2000 is interested on a working dog or a performance dog. This is just my opinion.

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I don't know why people here does not approve to the breeders that does not breed for working with sheep cattles etc. I think not everyone who wants to own a BC is particularly interested on sheep herding. Border collie does not always mean sheep or cattles - border collie are so smart that they can do almost everything so why not approve to breeders that breed for a performance dog not a "working dog" I know that BC's are bred to herd, it just not make any sense why people here don't like BC's doing agility and not working with sheep! I don't know if BCLover2000 is interested on a working dog or a performance dog. This is just my opinion.

People on here don't have anything against people doing agility or other sports with their BCs instead of stock work and they would agree with you that they are a versatile breed. What they don't agree with is breeding for those sports instead of for work.

 

BCs are what they are because they have been bred for work for many years. Breeding for work makes a breed that is capable of doing a wide variety of activities, including sports.

 

Unfortunately if you breed for sports you get a different sort of dog, not what a BC was bred for.

 

A working bred dog has a good chance of being able to work and excel in sports but it doesn't work in reverse. A sport bred dog is unlikely to be much good for work.

 

Of course if stock work doesn't interest you and all you want is a sport dog this is unlikely to concern you.

 

What upsets a lot of people on here is that those sport dogs are still called BCs even though many wouldn't recognise a sheep or know what to do with it.

 

The same applies to AKC conformation bred dogs.

 

The ethos of this forum is to promote the working BC so you can't expect breeding for any other purpose to be endorsed here.

 

I think some people get so hot under the collar about the subject because of the misrepresentation by some sport and conformation breeders who give the impression that the dogs they produce are the real deal. A lot of buyers don't know the difference and are taken in.

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It has been said over and over again that no one objects to anyone doing agility, obedience, or any other dog sport, or having a Border Collie as just a beloved active pet - the entire point of the argument is that you don't *breed* for reasons other than the work (stock work). Both the "Read this first" and the link to "Tips on choosing a Border Collie" enumerate the many reasons why. Read them both and perhaps you will understand.

 

No one looks down on anyone who chooses to do performance sports or be a pet owner, but we do object to people who breed for the wrong reasons (because it's wrong for the breed) and people who patronize those breeders. That includes sport breeders, show breeders, color breeders, backyard breeders, puppy mills, and all other forms of breeding that are contrary to maintaining, improving, and promoting the Border Collie as the world's premier stock working dog. It is the years of selecting for what it takes to work stock that has made this breed what it is with its unique qualities, not breeding for other reasons.

 

I don't know why people here does not approve to the breeders that does not breed for working with sheep cattles etc. I think not everyone who wants to own a BC is particularly interested on sheep herding. Border collie does not always mean sheep or cattles - border collie are so smart that they can do almost everything so why not approve to breeders that breed for a performance dog not a "working dog" I know that BC's are bred to herd, it just not make any sense why people here don't like BC's doing agility and not working with sheep! I don't know if BCLover2000 is interested on a working dog or a performance dog. This is just my opinion.

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Of course it is. But that does not make it valid...

Isn't it rather arrogant to dismiss an opinion that is shared by so many people in that way?

 

This board has one point of view but there is a world out there where stock work doesn't figure and many people are very happy with their sport bred dogs.

 

Driving out those who hold a different opinion to ones own doesn't strengthen ones argument.

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Dear Doggers,

It seems curious that over the years I've heard many dog showers tell me how their "herding dog" could work stock "if only, if only . . ."

I cannot recall ever hearing a sheepdogger say that his/her dog could win a dog show if only. Apparently dog shows are much more difficult than stockwork.

 

Donald McCaig

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Dear Doggers,

It seems curious that over the years I've heard many dog showers tell me how their "herding dog" could work stock "if only, if only . . ."

I cannot recall ever hearing a sheepdogger say that his/her dog could win a dog show if only. Apparently dog shows are much more difficult than stockwork.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Gotta love it! :lol:

 

BCLover2000 and Killua, have you read READ THIS FIRST? Have you read Tips on Getting a Border Collie? If not, please read them as an aid to understanding what you say you cannot understand. If you have read them, is it possible that you do UNDERSTAND what is being said, you just don't AGREE? The newer you are to border collies, the more likely it is that you will disagree, because you are unfamiliar with the whole concept of what a border collie is, in its essence. You are coming from another culture. You have been looking at the idea of dog breeds from one point of view, and you are now meeting up with another point of view.

 

Let me try to give an example that might help. Suppose you are a member of a pre-literate culture -- one that doesn't know how to read, and doesn't understand the written word. You come into contact with a literate culture -- one that reads and writes and has books.

 

You see their books. Immediately you put them into your own frame of reference. You can see a number of uses for them. They would make a good fire to keep you warm in winter or to cook over. If you stack them up, they make a good platform to put things on. If you line them up in shelves on a wall, they provide good, decorative insulation. You come to value them for these uses. You feel you understand books and what they are good for. You love books! But you don't see any point to all those squiggly marks inside them. You think it would be easier not to bother with putting those marks there. Who needs them? They're not what a book is all about. That's your opinion, anyway. A book will burn just as well without them, and will support objects just as well without them, and do all the things you care about just as well without them. You don't understand why the Book People say that a book would not be a true book without the writing in it, and that it would be a great loss if printers no longer put words in books.

 

This is a parable. The books are like border collies. The pre-literate people are like those who have no understanding of how essential herding ability is in the border collie, and who think that the border collie is just as much a border collie if it has no ability to work livestock. They don't appreciate the value of that ability, or the fact that it must be nurtured, and that it would be a great loss if people no longer produced border collies who had that ability. They see no point to it. We are trying to help them see it. We think that it would be better if they could see and appreciate it. It would be better for the future of the true border collie, bred for work, and it would be better for the future of the people who need that dog to manage their livestock, and it would even -- ultimately -- be better for the people who can't see its value yet.

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Bclover2000, folks have given very good answers. Eileen said it well. All the things that make border collies wonderful - smart, fast, agile, biddible, etc. come from working ability. And working ability comes from good breeding - breeding focused on improving the working ability.

 

I am fairly new to the world of border collies myself, relatively speaking.

 

I have 3 border collies. All abca registered. Pete, my 6 yr is a wonderful sweet dog. We got him as a family pet. I was interested in agility and had fantasies of trying him on sheep someday (we lived in the city and had no sheep at this time). he was not bred for working abilities - he actually shares some of the same lines as many of the contact point border collies. He is very sweet, great with people and kids, but not a drop of natural working ability. I wasn't aware of differences until I brought home my second border collie.

 

I didn't know much about her when I brought her home at 1.5 yrs. later I learned her sire was a talented working dog and she was from working lines. She made poor Pete look slow and sluggish. She picked things up so much faster and had an off

switch.

 

A couple years later I bought a pup from very strong working lines. He is now two and is amazing. Extremely talented on stock. I let him play agility when I am training Pete and he is much better at it than Pete, too. I had some agility friends over training and they were trying to talk me into competing in agility with him (he has too much talent on stock for that, IMHO). They said he would put the performance border collies to shame.

 

The point of my long short story is that nothing compares to a working bred BC in terms of intelligence, speed, agility, power, biddibility, temperament, etc. They have amazing talent at whatever they do because of their working ability.

 

I do have several friends with show line and performance line dogs, a few can work, but many cannot. One friend who does

agility and obedience, but loves herding, was heartbroken when her bc didn't work. many folks don't know that when you start breeding for primarily for other things (color, "drive", etc) that you are diluting the working ability.

 

The breeder I got Pete from, was breeding primarily for red dogs as she sold them for more ( 3 times more than what I paid for Pete, the only b/w in the litter). There was strong working dogs back in the line, it didn't take her long to breed the

working ability right out of her dogs.

 

 

 

 

 

I love my Pete with all of my heart and am very thankful to have him in my life, but would never consider a dog that didn't come from working lines.

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Hey, I have a question for the agility people here.

 

Do the sports bred dogs - like Hobnob - actually do better at agility? Or do they just cost a whole lot more?

 

Or do our little working bred guys do just as well and cost about half as much?

 

I'm to the point where I just want to tell the sports guys to just go buy your sports bred dogs. They are a completely different breed of dog now. Just don't ever expect them to be able to work stock if you get interested in it because they won't be able to. And don't ever take them to a serious stockdog clinic because you will just be embarrassed to death when your dog just walks around the pen eating sheep poop and completely ignores the sheep.. But I'm not sure those people would be interested in ever working stock anyway.

 

I just don't care anymore.

 

You want to see the difference between the sports bred dogs and out working bred dogsl? Go out on Youtube and watch the videos of the dogs working cattle in the pens. Or the videos of the shepherds bringing in a thousand sheep with only the help of two dogs. That is the difference.

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Hey, I have a question for the agility people here.

 

Do the sports bred dogs - like Hobnob - actually do better at agility? Or do they just cost a whole lot more?

 

Or do our little working bred guys do just as well and cost about half as much?

 

I think it's likely a chicken and egg situation. People who are intense about agility get dogs out of dogs who have been successful at agility. They're often accomplished handlers and end up doing well at agility with their dogs. Is the handler? Is it the breeding? It's tough to say.

 

I'd say that the top agility/flyball dogs in my area are almost entirely sports bred.

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I have been out of agility for years, but remain good friends with someone who is very active in the sport. From what I can tell in my area, there are very few true working dogs in agility. Keep in mind that it is almost entirely AKC in my area. When I was still in agility, I would occasionally hear about a “working bred dog” but in actuality they were all sports bred dogs with working lines. Most of them were no more working bred than Quinn who is the classic sports bred model with working, sport and conformation lines.

 

Anyway, people see sports bred dogs doing very well in agility. They see big names running dogs from certain non working breeders doing very well. Almost everyone they talk to recommends sports bred dogs (this is how I ended up with Quinn). There really is very little understanding of how sports bred dogs differ from working bred dogs. Sports people tend to be very happy with their sports bred dogs and/or impressed by dogs they see from sports breeders. They don’t begin to see why they would go to a true working breeder and in fact likely resist the idea of going with an “unproven” breeder when all they tend to see and know are sports bred dogs and they "don't need a dog to herd sheep."

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Hey, I have a question for the agility people here.

 

Do the sports bred dogs - like Hobnob - actually do better at agility? Or do they just cost a whole lot more?

 

Or do our little working bred guys do just as well and cost about half as much?

I will agree with Sekah. Since agility is more of a learned skill, rather than instinctive, an excellent agility trainer can 'train up' a dog with some fundamental characteristics (drive, speed, athletic build) to be a top agility dog. Some extraordinary trainers can also instill drive for agility into an otherwise complacent dog. I have also seen a few top agility dogs that were reportedly fearful and anxious and lacking confidence in the beginning - again, with the appropriate training, they overcame their issues.

 

So I would come down on the side of the trainer in producing a top-level agility dog (assuming the basic building blocks were there). Having said that, few top trainers want to expend the extra energy into training up a dog with issues.

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Isn't it rather arrogant to dismiss an opinion that is shared by so many people in that way?

 

This board has one point of view but there is a world out there where stock work doesn't figure and many people are very happy with their sport bred dogs.

 

Driving out those who hold a different opinion to ones own doesn't strengthen ones argument.

No, not really. Mainly because I did not actually "dismiss her opinion" (though obviously I disagree with it).

 

As for the "shared by so many people" argument, you do know what they say about a billion flies?

 

This board is a rather precious gem, not in the least because of its position on what really matters in border collie breeding.

There are a lot of forums where you can talk at length about the breedworthiness of your rare blue sable with lilac highlights colored (or whatever) sport or show dog. You will find that warm feeling of agreement and admiration around you. And that is great. But please, not here.

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Hey, I have a question for the agility people here.

 

Do the sports bred dogs - like Hobnob - actually do better at agility? Or do they just cost a whole lot more?

 

Or do our little working bred guys do just as well and cost about half as much?

 

It's hard to say since there really isn't any way to make an objective comparison.

 

I don't believe any of the well known Agility handlers run strictly working bred Border Collies? I could be wrong since I'm not really into following "gurus", but if the best Agility handlers are running sport bred Border Collies, any attempt to compare results in the sport is going to be pure speculation . . .

 

It is exactly like what Mr. McCaig said above - anyone can say, "working bred dogs can be just as good at Agility, or better", but if the best handlers aren't running them, there is really no way to know for certain.

 

Hand an accomplished handler a sport bred Border Collie and me a working bred Border Collie and I'm going to get my butt kicked handily (unless there is something seriously wrong with the dog that the accomplished handler is running, but for this comparison let's just say both are reasonably sound). But that doesn't really say anything about the talent of the dog. It may be that the accomplished handler would do five times better with the working bred dog. But if they aren't running them . . . who knows?

 

There are a lot of reasons why the average dog sport enthusiast is going to look to the sport Border Collie breeder over the working breeder. The sport enthusiast might truly feel that a dog bred for work should actually be working. The sport enthusiast might feel intimidated by the idea of approaching a working breeder. Some sport enthusiasts don't even know that such a thing as a working breeder exists! Sports breeders market to the general public, working breeders generally don't. Sport enthusiasts see Border Collies from sport breeders at trials, like what they see, and want to get dogs from the same breeders . . .

 

And I guess some people like the variety in colors, and I am sure there are those who would consider parents who are proven in the sport to be something important to take into consideration. Finally, some Agility people are AKC only people and they will only buy AKC registered dogs, no matter what.

 

Let me be clear - I am not defending sport breeding in any way. I am simply giving a perspective from an average sport enthusiast (who, for the record, is, if all goes as hoped, going to raise and train a working bred puppy in the near future). I know you said, Tommy Coyote, that you don't care anymore, but on the outside chance that you really were trying to get a picture of the kind of mindset that would lead one to seek a Border Collie from a sport breeder, there might be a bit of info for you. :)

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