Can't be contained

[Sue R]

This is excellent advice.

 

Well, you can obviously do whatever you want, but imo a 6 month old puppy's too young to be permitted to make choices like that. Seems to me his getting out of the "confined" areas and soiling in the house would be pretty good evidence of that.

 

ETA: Allowing puppies too much freedom to make their own choices at a very young age is a major reason so many of them end up in rescue. Like any youngster, they need to be taught appropriate behavior, which isn't something you can do when you're not there. Pups left to their own devices don't have any guidance to help them make good choices.

[Gloria Atwater]

I would really like a pen, I just haven't seen any over 48" high which would not be enough. Finding something like that was my reason for starting this thread. Are there taller ones available?

 

The issue really is just keeping him in the area. His behavior was great for 2 weeks inside that setup. He just grew a little more and really explored his options one night when we had a visiting puppy over that we were separating for a bit. The next day is when he figured out his escape because of what he had probably learned the night before when he REALLY wanted to get out.

 

I really appreciate the replies and I hope no one thinks I'm blowing off their ideas. I've just observed since having him that as long as he is in a small inescapable area he does well. He just gets bigger though so I have to redefine inescapable!

 

 

Here's an idea. Buy a second X-pen and clip it over the *top* of the pen you're putting him in. Essentially, you'd be creating an indoor kennel with a roof. That way he has some freedom, but he doesn't get to jump out and "choose" to do things you don't like. At 6 months, he's still too young to trust and too flitter-brained to be consistent.

 

So, maybe try that. Clip a roof on his pen so he'll have freedom but not an escape route.

 

Hope this helps!

 

~ Gloria

[mum24dog]

 

I think crates are used much less in Europe. Years ago, a big Agility name from the UK insisted on an email list that anyone who crated their dogs was cruel and selfish.

I'd like to know the context of that expressed view. I wonder how that person transports their dogs. If you're willing to say who I can keep an eye out.

 

It's important to distinguish between the general dog owning public and those involved in sports who travel the country with their dogs. I don't know anyone in the latter category who is against crates per set.

 

However, the idea that it is acceptable to leave a dog in a crate for many hours without a very good reason is alien to many here.

 

House training is easier with a crate or to confine a chewer. If an insecure dog feels more confident with an available refuge, as a management tool or if crate rest is necessary that's fine, but for the average dog I would ask why? What is wrong with so many dogs that they can't be trusted to be loose in the house?

 

I use crates for my dogs and I prefer them to beds because they are warmer and more flexible but I accept that I would have to try harder to get over the issues for which I use them if they didn't exist or weren't allowed.

 

If I am going to be out all day my dogs go to day care irrespective of crate use, partly so they can have toilet breaks. I wouldn't dream of crating them and forcing them to hold on longer than is comfortable.

 

Having said that, I don't think that using a crate for the time being for the OP's dog is necessarily a bad idea.

[Shetlander]

 

I'd like to know the context of that expressed view. I wonder how that person transports their dogs. If you're willing to say who I can keep an eye out.

 

It's important to distinguish between the general dog owning public and those involved in sports who travel the country with their dogs. I don't know anyone in the latter category who is against crates per set

 

It was Jo Sermon (I think that is her last name -- I have been out of agility for several years and am happy to say I had to think hard to remember her name). She ran Beardies and she or her daughter also had a young lurcher at the time. She wasn't against using crates for travel and shows, but as a main part of house training. The funny thing was she was one of the people who taught at Susan Garrett's facility and Susan was hard core into use of crates, such as her book Ruff Love. I guess Jo got off her high horse long enough for those trips to Canada.

 

However, the idea that it is acceptable to leave a dog in a crate for many hours without a very good reason is alien to many here.

 

House training is easier with a crate or to confine a chewer. If an insecure dog feels more confident with an available refuge, as a management tool or if crate rest is necessary that's fine, but for the average dog I would ask why? What is wrong with so many dogs that they can't be trusted to be loose in the house?

 

Yes, that is the issue --- crating the puppy or dog for many hours. I am not sure what you mean by "so many dogs." My good reason (or what is wrong with the dog) is for house training purposes. I do not allow my dog loose in the house, even in my gated kitchen, until I am confident he won't chew, mark, or potty. I am not hugely optimistic about when pups and new dogs are safe to be loose. I prefer not to have a trashed house or a dog chewing/eating something that is dangerous to him. I work all day. That means my puppies and young dogs spend up to 10 hours a day crated, with a break at lunch to potty and play. They also get lots of attention, exercise, training and play when I am home. Some people (like Jo) would say this is wrong, unfair, selfish, cruel, etc. I am comfortable with my use of crates and approach to raising happy, healthy, well trained dogs.

[GentleLake]

I do not allow my dog loose in the house, even in my gated kitchen, until I am confident he won't chew, mark, or potty. I am not hugely optimistic about when pups and new dogs are safe to be loose. I prefer not to have a trashed house or a dog chewing/eating something that is dangerous to him. I work all day. That means my puppies and young dogs spend up to 10 hours a day crated, with a break at lunch to potty and play. They also get lots of attention, exercise, training and play when I am home. Some people (like Jo) would say this is wrong, unfair, selfish, cruel, etc. I am comfortable with my use of crates and approach to raising happy, healthy, well trained dogs.

 

 

Exactly!

 

I wish I'd known about crates -- or better yet, really understood the benefits of using crates -- when I got my first dog. He was a free-to-a-good-home 4 month old pointreiver who'd lived with his littermates in a garage with no attempt to to house train or to teach basic manners, such as chewing undesirable objects. My (now ex-) husband both worked full time and while we worked with the pup when we were home, he still had far too much time on his own to get into trouble . . . and get into trouble he did.

 

It pains me to this day to think of the mistakes we made with this puppy, and how much easier it would have been on him if we'd known to crate him. House training would have been much easier, and far fewer things would have been chewed and destroyed.

[mum24dog]

 

It was Jo Sermon (I think that is her last name -- I have been out of agility for several years and am happy to say I had to think hard to remember her name). She ran Beardies and she or her daughter also had a young lurcher at the time. She wasn't against using crates for travel and shows, but as a main part of house training. The funny thing was she was one of the people who taught at Susan Garrett's facility and Susan was hard core into use of crates, such as her book Ruff Love. I guess Jo got off her high horse long enough for those trips to Canada.

 

 

 

Yes, that is the issue --- crating the puppy or dog for many hours. I am not sure what you mean by "so many dogs." My good reason (or what is wrong with the dog) is for house training purposes. I do not allow my dog loose in the house, even in my gated kitchen, until I am confident he won't chew, mark, or potty. I am not hugely optimistic about when pups and new dogs are safe to be loose. I prefer not to have a trashed house or a dog chewing/eating something that is dangerous to him. I work all day. That means my puppies and young dogs spend up to 10 hours a day crated, with a break at lunch to potty and play. They also get lots of attention, exercise, training and play when I am home. Some people (like Jo) would say this is wrong, unfair, selfish, cruel, etc. I am comfortable with my use of crates and approach to raising happy, healthy, well trained dogs.

Jo isn't as active in agility as she used to be because her daughter's interest in horses took up do much time afair but she is one of the good guys. I was quite friendly with her on line for a while a few years ago and we had some very interesting and indiscreet discussions. She doesn't come north to compete.

 

Small and nervous lurcher? If so it was through that dog that I got to know her in an indirect way.

 

I wouldn't have a pup if it meant leaving it confined for so long. If I had to go out to work and took on a dog that turned out to be a chewer (and I have) I would not crate it for more than a couple of hours.

 

I imagine Jo's view would be that it is better to train than fall back on management. I can't disagree even if I don't necessarily live up to it myself.

 

How would you manage if you lived in a country where the use of crates is illegal? I imagine that Swedes go out to work too.

[GentleLake]

I don't think anyone who's recommending a crate for this pup is suggesting that it be used in lieu of training, that the pup be kept in the crate all it's life, or for excessive periods of time.

 

Training and supervision are great, and I agree they should be the primary emphasis. But the reality for most people is that they have to work and they can't be supervising and training 24/7. So are you suggesting that nothing should be done during the puppy stage to prevent unwanted behavior in an attempt to facilitate training?

 

That's the crux of the matter here. Each time this puppy practices its undesired behavior, that behavior will become habitual and harder to extinguish. There's an excellent chance the pup will learn to behave when the OP is home, but will continue to soil and or get into mischief when Zorro13's not home, at the very least for much longer than it would if effective measures aren't taken to prevent it, which the current ones obviously aren't.

 

Again, I don't think anyone -- and certainly not I -- is suggesting that the pup shouldn't be trained, that it should be crated for the rest of its life, or that the privilege of freedom shouldn't be the goal when the puppy's old enough and well enough trained to be reliable. A 6 month old puppy just isn't there yet, and 4-5 hours isn't so long to crate a puppy that it's cruel.

[Shetlander]

I wouldn't have a pup if it meant leaving it confined for so long. If I had to go out to work and took on a dog that turned out to be a chewer (and I have) I would not crate it for more than a couple of hours.

 

I imagine Jo's view would be that it is better to train than fall back on management. I can't disagree even if I don't necessarily live up to it myself.

 

How would you manage if you lived in a country where the use of crates is illegal? I imagine that Swedes go out to work too.

 

Yup. That's the gist of what Jo said all those years ago. I don't know how you train or manage a dog, other than confinement, when you are not present. Jo mentioned how people sometimes waited until retirement to get a dog because someone wasn't home during the day. I thought that was sad and said so.

 

Fortunately, I live in a country where I am free to use crates. If I didn't, I suppose I could live in a shabby house, hoping my dog doesn't ingest something that kills him or else wait until I am retired to have a dog, as Jo suggested. Maybe I could even retire sooner by not spending so much money on my dogs. That might help make up for the 40-50 years without the fun and companionship of living with dogs.

 

My puppies and dogs (and house and nerves) do just fine with crating. That is good enough for me.

[Journey]

I would really like a pen, I just haven't seen any over 48" high which would not be enough. Finding something like that was my reason for starting this thread. Are there taller ones available?

 

Caldwell Bradley or vice vers can't remember... they make a wonderful pen. It has a roof. All wire, portable too.

 

I'm not sure why you asked here if you're not willing to crate him. A 6 mo old making his own choice won't happen a second time when he's dead due to a bad choice. We're the ones that are supposed to be responsible.....

[Sue R]

I crate my three (or two out of the three) when we are gone for a short while or when we are gone for the workday. I have different reasons for crating - one dog spends the day barking hysterically at the window at any real or imagined passerby. That actually doesn't bother me but it does bother my husband. As for the other two, at least one is crated because there is potential for a dustup between the two and the crating is for safety reasons. When I only have dogs that are totally trustworthy in the house for the day, then I often leave them uncrated. That's not the situation here now.

 

I work about 25 miles from where I live in a rural area. I don't have someone nearby that I could ask to give my dogs a break. We do not have a fenced yard (not that I would leave them out in one or with unrestricted access to one anyway). When we last had a pup, we did have a neighbor boy who would get off the bus at our house, and potty and play with Dan.

 

My dogs (well, two of them for sure) are content to enter and relax in their crates for the workday. The third prefers not to and isn't crated unless I have to crate him (right now, with workers coming in and out of the house, demolition and construction going on, all dogs are crated for everyone's safety and peace of mind). They do all settle down and relax in their crates without issue.

 

I think if any of my dogs could answer the question, "Are you happy to live with Ed and Sue, and be crated while they are gone for the day?" they would answer in the affirmative. When I am home for the day, they spend the vast majority of that time lying around asleep. And that's pretty much what they do in their crates when we are not here.

 

How many dogs would be homeless if we could not crate during a work (or otherwise absent owner) day? I prefer to live my life with a dog that is crated at times to a life without a dog but maybe some people would consider that selfish, and that dogs should only live with the retired, the unemployed, the don't-have-to-work-for-a-living, those who work from home, and others who are able to spend the day at home.

 

I wouldn't have a pup if it meant leaving it confined for so long. If I had to go out to work and took on a dog that turned out to be a chewer (and I have) I would not crate it for more than a couple of hours.

I imagine Jo's view would be that it is better to train than fall back on management. I can't disagree even if I don't necessarily live up to it myself.

How would you manage if you lived in a country where the use of crates is illegal? I imagine that Swedes go out to work too.

[GentleLake]

^^

 

My boarder is crated when I'm not home for liability issues.

 

The youngster is totally reliable in the house and isn't crated when the boarder's not here, but she does when he is because he'll bark if she moves around at all. (He's more than a little obsessed with her. ) And I have neighbors who tend to call the police for just about anything (srsly, they called the police recently because I shoveled the snow from my driveway onto the edge of their yard, which I've been doing for 19 years ), so I don't want him non-stop barking when I'm gone.

 

The old dog tends to have accidents in the house if she's loose when I'm not home and at night, so she's crated, too.

 

The other one is totally reliable and isn't crated, but he'd be fine if I felt the need.

 

I'm with Sue. There are many, many dogs who live great lives with loving people who might not otherwise if crating weren't an option. And the vast majority of them are well adjust, not suffering a bit from the abuse.

[sandysfarm]

I have a collie a golden and greyhounds too and I crate those most likely to offend. I'm not up to allowing any of my dogs to make choices when Im gone because I like my house and my dogs to look the same when I come back as they did when I left - disputes and blood are not good for the more sensitive souls here who just want everybody to snooze till I arrive

[Gloria Atwater]

 

 

Here's an idea. Buy a second X-pen and clip it over the *top* of the pen you're putting him in. Essentially, you'd be creating an indoor kennel with a roof. That way he has some freedom, but he doesn't get to jump out and "choose" to do things you don't like. At 6 months, he's still too young to trust and too flitter-brained to be consistent.

 

So, maybe try that. Clip a roof on his pen so he'll have freedom but not an escape route.

 

Hope this helps!

 

~ Gloria

 

 

To quote myself: put a roof on the ex-pen. Worth a try, anyhow.

 

~ Gloria

(stuck indoors due to RAIN - beautiful, wonderful, awesome WET RAIN!)

[Zorro13]

Although there is great convo about crating here I just want to recap what my pup has problems with specifically as he seems to be described worse and worse with each post! (crazy telephone game!).

 

In a small containment areas he has 0 issues. The area is the most boring setup possible so there are no opportunities to chew and he has had 0 accidents in this area (and another small area we started leaving him in after only a week of having him). So for my specific case leaving him in a small area is causing me no grief and not reinforcing any bad habits. I did try a larger area too quickly and he started using the bathroom so I downsized again. I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing! All I need is something to block one entryway that is a little porous for a border collie and I will be issue free once more! I think I've found a solution in the form of a 6' gate from Home Depot that I will brace against the wall (obviously being more than 100% sure it cannot possibly fall no matter what happens to it).

[Hooper]

 

 

To quote myself: put a roof on the ex-pen. Worth a try, anyhow.

 

 

For a typical X-pen that is made up of eight 2-ft wide panels, it is possible to buy just two panels that make a perfect fit for a roof for an x-pen. No need to buy an entire second X-pen. I've kept pups indoors in that set up, and if the "roof" is well clipped to the "walls" it is pretty secure unless you have a really determined escape artist. Pup has a little more room to stand up, roll a kong around, that sort of thing, but is still confined enough to discourage pottying unless desperate.

[madrose124]

Imagine leaving a 2 year old toddler alone in your home for 4-5 hrs, unsupervised. Yeah. I believe in crates (not for toddlers I should clarify LOL)

[mum24dog]

I prefer to live my life with a dog that is crated at times to a life without a dog but maybe some people would consider that selfish, and that dogs should only live with the retired, the unemployed, the don't-have-to-work-for-a-living, those who work from home, and others who are able to spend the day at home.

 

 

We're all selfish to some extent.

 

I'm selfish forcing my non dog loving husband to share is life with multiple dogs.

 

I'm selfish for crating my dogs at night because they don't wake me up so early if I do.

 

I could go on.

[mum24dog]

Jo mentioned how people sometimes waited until retirement to get a dog because someone wasn't home during the day. I thought that was sad and said so.

 

 

If I hadn't been able to work from home I doubt that I would have had a dog that I had to leave at home all day. Any free time I had apart from work would have been more than accounted for. Despite having grown up with multiple dogs I never had a hankering for one or felt a sense of entitlement to own one and I still don't think it is my right to have dogs.

 

 

Fortunately, I live in a country where I am free to use crates. If I didn't, I suppose I could live in a shabby house, hoping my dog doesn't ingest something that kills him or else wait until I am retired to have a dog, as Jo suggested. Maybe I could even retire sooner by not spending so much money on my dogs. That might help make up for the 40-50 years without the fun and companionship of living with dogs.

 

My puppies and dogs (and house and nerves) do just fine with crating. That is good enough for me.

 

 

You could fail a rescue home check here if you seem too house proud.

 

I don't think pet owners here are much into crates and don't seem to need them generally, whether they work or not. My work colleagues don't crate their dogs as a rule just because they are out all day.

 

I wonder whether the ready acceptance that dogs need to be crated if left alone is part and parcel of a culture where life with dogs faces more restrictions than here, as we have discussed elsewhere, and where the impression is given that sociable and well behaved off lead dogs are uncommon.

 

Could it be that because, for many, the opportunity to let their dogs just be dogs is somewhat limited that there is a tacit acceptance that they can't be trusted in the house? Maybe they can't but if so, why is that?

 

As for ingesting something inappropriate and dangerous, I have had 4 children and childproofing a house is second nature to me. Dogproofing is pretty much the same. I think the most damage to the fabric of the house that any of mine have done is a bit of gnawing on the corner of a skirting board. Perhaps it is easier to cause substantial damage with your construction methods?

 

I wouldn't go so far as to claim that, for the majority, using a crate constitutes cruelty, although it can if taken to excess. And I wouldn't deny that there are situations where it is advisable. What I question is whether it is as necessary for so many dogs as some seem to think.

[Flamincomet]

I have a service dog so I don't really have to worry about crating vs leaving him loose while I'm away, but I still crate trained him. I think it's important to remember the crate should be a temporary training tool. I start my puppies with an ex pen and crate to ease them into it, but when they're teenagers they absolutely get crated when they can't be supervised. Not only does this teach them how to settle, an invaluable skill for a border collie, but it prevents the reinforcement of bad behavior that will inevitably happen at this age. I see it as a short period of time of limited priviledge that will lead to a life time of freedom. When my dogs are adults they very rarely get crated, because they have a strong foundation of what is acceptable behavior, and can settle and relax in the house for long periods of time. I don't think achieving this would be impossible without crate training, but why makes things harder not only on yourself, but your dog too?

[mum24dog]

I have a collie a golden and greyhounds too and I crate those most likely to offend. I'm not up to allowing any of my dogs to make choices when Im gone because I like my house and my dogs to look the same when I come back as they did when I left - disputes and blood are not good for the more sensitive souls here who just want everybody to snooze till I arrive

 

 

I have 2 dogs that would like to kill each other but they aren't crated when I'm out. I do separate them though as it would be like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre if I didn't.

[rushdoggie]

I see it as a short period of time of limited priviledge that will lead to a life time of freedom. When my dogs are adults they very rarely get crated, because they have a strong foundation of what is acceptable behavior, and can settle and relax in the house for long periods of time. I don't think achieving this would be impossible without crate training, but why makes things harder not only on yourself, but your dog too?

 

This, 100%. 2 years of limits and hard work on my part for 13 years of an ideal dog. Works for me.

[GentleLake]

I think it's important to remember the crate should be a temporary training tool. I start my puppies with an ex pen and crate to ease them into it, but when they're teenagers they absolutely get crated when they can't be supervised. Not only does this teach them how to settle, an invaluable skill for a border collie, but it prevents the reinforcement of bad behavior that will inevitably happen at this age. I see it as a short period of time of limited priviledge that will lead to a life time of freedom. When my dogs are adults they very rarely get crated, because they have a strong foundation of what is acceptable behavior, and can settle and relax in the house for long periods of time. I don't think achieving this would be impossible without crate training, but why makes things harder not only on yourself, but your dog too?

 

 

Yep.

 

I only crate my adults if there's a good reason, like incontinence . . . or one of them triggering barking in the boarder.

[Shetlander]

If I hadn't been able to work from home I doubt that I would have had a dog that I had to leave at home all day. Any free time I had apart from work would have been more than accounted for. Despite having grown up with multiple dogs I never had a hankering for one or felt a sense of entitlement to own one and I still don't think it is my right to have dogs.

 

I'm not following. I thought you currently have at least one dog. You have said how your husband didn't want dogs but you insisted. How does that translate into you never had a hankering for a dog?

 

Must be the American in me, but I do think I have a right to have dogs, though that right is limited by where I live (e.g., apartments or condos that don't allow dogs, township limits on how many animals you may keep) and I do believe I owe it to my dogs to give them a good home which obviously can be interpreted differently. You and I disagree about whether leaving your dog home alone all day or using crates as part of house training is unacceptable.

 

You could fail a rescue home check here if you seem too house proud.

 

Seriously? So, the 6 foot fenced in yard, a variety of training, tons of attention, excellent vet care, carefully chosen diet, and multiple opportunities for exercise would all be torpedoed because I put effort into keeping my modest home nicely decorated? Interesting. I guess if I am rejected by Rescue, I will just be forced to buy a puppy. That will serve me right!

 

Could it be that because, for many, the opportunity to let their dogs just be dogs is somewhat limited that there is a tacit acceptance that they can't be trusted in the house? Maybe they can't but if so, why is that?

 

Yes, that must be it. The inferior lives we offer our dogs must be why we don't trust them and crate them when housetraining.

 

As for ingesting something inappropriate and dangerous, I have had 4 children and childproofing a house is second nature to me. Dogproofing is pretty much the same

 

Oh, dear! Were your children prone to chewing furniture? Believe it or not, I do know how to dog and child proof. .

I think the most damage to the fabric of the house that any of mine have done is a bit of gnawing on the corner of a skirting board. Perhaps it is easier to cause substantial damage with your construction methods?

 

I am not an expert on construction. I have hard wood floors and plaster walls (circa 1960), if that helps you compare the quality of how our houses are built.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to claim that, for the majority, using a crate constitutes cruelty, although it can if taken to excess. And I wouldn't deny that there are situations where it is advisable. What I question is whether it is as necessary for so many dogs as some seem to think

 

I know what works for my dogs and my lifestyle but thanks for the trip down memory lane.

[alligande]

I was thinking about the post about waiting until retirement to get a dog if you work full time, my FIL was told he could not adopt a dog in South Carolina because he was to old, I think he was about 70 then active and in good health.... Obviously you can't win.

 

I think all my friends with dogs, local friends and agility ones all work, I see no reason why a dog can't hang out at home my own dogs have never caused any problems and I don't crate once they have reached the trustworthy point.

[highway61]

I wouldn't go so far as to claim that, for the majority, using a crate constitutes cruelty, although it can if taken to excess. And I wouldn't deny that there are situations where it is advisable. What I question is whether it is as necessary for so many dogs as some seem to think.

 

Are you seriously arguing that crates are harmful? I get that anything used in excess is bad but In one post you admit you crate your dogs at night for the luxury of them not waking you and then you question why so many Americans rely on them? There's a whole list of benefits of crate use in the Living With Border Collies section of this website under crate-training.