Do your own a mini border collie and don't know it?

[Tommy Coyote]

One of my acquaintances has a mini Aussie and it's really a mini. He is very cute but I don't think he really looks much like an actual Aussie. His little body is very chunky and set on very short legs. And his eyes are kind of like a pugs - fort of. Not that extreme. He is a red tri.

 

There used to be a man in Iowa(?) that had aussies that worked a lot like border collies and he used to compete in the trials. Is he still around?

[GentleLake]

It doesn't take many generations to breed small so why the assumption that they must be crossed with small breeds?

 

I don't remember what websites it was I'd seen when I first heard of the mini Aussies, but many of the mini Aussie people are quite upfront about out crossing to smaller breeds to get the size down. I'm sure they couldn't wait to do it by selecting for size. They were probably just chomping at the bit to rake in the big bucks from the novelty and toy breed crowd.

[mtnfrank]

Perhaps miniature border-collies are needed to herd miniature sheep?

(yeap they exist as well)

 

But think of how much more convenient it would be to hold miniature trials, could be done at the local football field.

[cwb3]

A good friend of mine had two gold border collies. AKC breed champ type dogs for sure, but they are drop-dead beautiful. I run the younger one in Agility and Flyball. He is a dream dog to run with in sports. They did whatever the first level AKC herding stuff is all about. But they likely would not be much for farm work.

 

Laughing at Liz P litter of "mini's" coming up. You should ad for that and scoop up lots of $$. Then when they grow and the owners complain you can blame them for over-feeding them!

Actually, I was searching for miniature border collie statues and ran into a whole rash of mini border collie sites.

 

Is your border collie under 25 pounds? Then you probably have a mini.

 

Just in case you don't know about it. This is a relatively new breed. They seem to be fun and make excellent pets. They look suspiciously like regular border collies except they seem to favor the AKC varieties - pretty little short legged sweet little pets.

 

So does the AKC allow miniature aussies? Will they soon have a class for mini border collies?

 

Wow. It's a whole brave new world out there. And did you know that golden border collies seem to be another big seller? They almost look white except they are really light gold.

 

I'm thinking it would just be best to let that part of the world just go it's own way. And we can just go our way. The gap has just gotten too wide.

[Kian's Mom]

Many years ago when I bred AKC Cocker Spaniels I had a few pups that I called mini. The standard for a bitch is 14 1/2 inches. Under that they got penalized. I bred my 14 1/2 to a 15 in. dog and we got pups that ranges from 13" to 15 1/2. Was not trying to breed for size at all. The second time we bred these same two I got a female that was 11" tall.

I know both sets of grandparents were standard size and there was no crossing with something else. The 11" I kept and trained for agility.

There is a place in Texas that advertises Mini Aussies for several years.

[Sekah]

My old agility trainer is involved with Aussie rescue and is convinced the minis were crossed out to something like a pug, if you look at many of them they have bug eyes. She also felt they did not have the same characteristic as the "real" ones.

 

And no sadly I am not harboring a mini collie, mine is one the giant collies, he just kept growing!

 

Mini Aussies are supposed to be purebred Australian Shepherd, only smaller. The freakish bug eyes and crappy temperaments seem to come from the breeders breeding for size and without much else in mind. Breeders breed for smaller dogs, but the eyes will remain the same size that they always were (give or take very small measurements) so you get some ugly, bug eyed dogs with the brain of a manic herder... which people buy as house pets in the city because of their convenient size.

 

There are of course exceptions to the rule, and plenty of "toy" Aussies are chi or pom crosses, but the ~true spirit~ of the Mini Aussie "breed" is that they're directly related to the standard Australian Shepherd.

[Maralynn]

I know of a couple mini aussies around here. They're cute little dogs but the only thing about them that really says "aussie" to me is the coloring

[juliepoudrier]

There used to be a man in Iowa(?) that had aussies that worked a lot like border collies and he used to compete in the trials. Is he still around?

You're not thinking of Hangin' Tree Stockdogs are you?

 

J.

[mum24dog]

Here in the UK normal Aussies aren't very common so there isn't really much of a market for a mini version. I only know of a couple of agility handlers with them and they are nowhere near as smallsmall as is being described. Mini in that context in practice just means under 17in. Same with bcs.

 

Whilst it is true that some people are actively trying to breed bcs under 17in for agility, the dogs that they produce are still within normal size range.

 

I don't think we have the same obsession with tiny dogs for various reasons. We are generally able to exercise larger dogs more freely, we don't have as many apartment dwellers, people in rented accommodation or rules about what size dog we are allowed to own or how many.

[Debbie Meier]

I believe that Tommy is referring to Bob Vest, he competed quite a bit with his aussies and there was quite a bit of talk about them working like border collies. Unfortunately Bob passed away suddenly a few years ago.

[gonetotervs]

I've got a "mini" --16 inches and about 22 pounds, acquired from West TN Border Collie rescue. They got her from a shelter in rural KY. Not sure if she's purebred and the runt of the litter or if she is a border jack who looks like a BC, but she's a darn lovely little stinker. Love her to bits.

[Beach BCs]

I gave a "mini" as well. 17.5" and 23lbs. She came from a shelter in SC and is my CBCR foster failure. My guess is that she is small due to lack of nutrition in her first home. Maybe there's something besides Border Collie in there. Or maybe she's just small. Dynamite comes in small packages, they say. She's a hoot!

[Gideon's girl]

When my JRT dies(which won't be any time soon), I hope I can find a "mini." We have come to believe that good things come in little packages, as long as the package isn't too little, and it wants to work.

[toney]

George Muelheim runs two nice Aussies ( NOT minis) in cattledog trials. They were at the USBCHA national finals last year. They don't work exactly like border collies but they are nice dogs. His wife runs a rescue border collie ( found tied to a stop sign with a box full of pups) in cattle trials too.

 

Mini Aussies are often marketed and are popular with rodeo / western horse people as " truck dogs". Something to bring to livestock shows or rodeos that's more portable than the full size version.

 

The one I know is tiny. Maybe 12 pounds. He's happily carted to barrel races and livestock shows all over the US.

[Tommy Coyote]

Julie: The guys that go to the trials north of KC will know the man who bred the working Aussies. I bet Don McCaig knows him. His aussies were pretty good sized and they worked like border collies - they crouched and had eye. I often wondered if maybe they had some BC in them somewhere. I think they were mostly blue merle tris but it was a long time ago that I saw them work. I remember someone telling me that it took a lot more time and effort to get them up to BC level work.

 

I think it was the same man that had his truck stolen a few year's ago and he had his dogs in the back. They found them and I think the dogs were fine.

[Pam Wolf]

Tommy as Deb said, that was Bob Vest. he did at one time have a very nice blue merle (he also had at least one BC too) that he trialed a lot in BC trials around the area (I have some videos somewhere). This was his dog Lynn, a nice flashy dog with a lot of eye and style (but no tail). He was one tough dog. I see quite a few mini aussies in 4H most are vile temperament creatures that would as soon bite you as look at you. A few look like small Aussies, other's look like pom or peke mixes without tails. Unfortunately most are breeding animals too. As for working them none of the ones in 4H have even tried (and I'd not encourage them either cause I don't like getting bitten). We have a local breeder of the mini Aussies who proclaims' to work them on goats but I've not seen it. And YES, breeders/advocates of Border Collies should take note of the decline in working Australian Shepherds! This is the future of the BC if breeders are not more selective IMO

[Tommy Coyote]

Bob Vest. That's the name. I had not heard that he had passed on. That's too bad.

 

I took care of a couple of aussies that were from a working rance in Arizona, I think. They were very square. Their heads were square and so were their bodies. I don't think they were a lot taller than my BCs but they were quite a bit heavier. The red merle was a real flake. The black and white tri had a wonderful temperment.

[vanillalove]

Having fallen (never planned on a non-BC breed) into the Aussie world recently, the mini Aussie "thing" just irritates me like nothing else.

 

I tried my darndest to find a working bred Aussie when we were looking for a pup and it was difficult to say the least. Even today's working bred Aussies are more bred for "versatility", rather than full-on work, but it is a start. The breed club is also stepping up its game recently. I do feel confident that my guy is as close to a "real" Aussie as you're going to find nowadays. In having him, the breed has really become a passion of mine and I have found people out there who are also trying to preserve the true Australian Shepherd. I hope we are able to, and I hope we are able to hold tight to what we have been able to preserve in the Border Collie - it is in better shape than the Aussie

 

I am asked frequently if Indie is a mini Aussie - I simply say that he is an Australian Shepherd, not a MAS. If they care to discuss, I try to educate on how they are two separate breeds - breeding for size alone has created an entirely different (and may I add, creepy looking dog) with no real working ability. The Aussie breed standard does not sacrifice quality for size - a small Aussie is just a small Aussie, they come in many different packages the way working dogs often do. The parent breed club does not recognize size variations in the breed and it is even DNA testing lines to ensure that there is no further cross over between the MAS and Aussie before they can be registered.

I really hope the Border Collie doesn't need to change it's name to disassociate with the barbie collies and/or "mini BC", as I have experienced first hand how aggravating it is to be associated with another breed. There is a MAS in Indie's puppy agility class. Indie is three times the size and the MAS is one month older - that is just not right, and the owner is left to believe that her dog is just a small version of mine? No thank you. Even the "full size" Aussies we've seen at the dog park are a far cry from the dog Indie is.

 

Anyways, it's a shame and I really hope the AKC and the breed clubs can educate people on both BCs and Aussie - and the new breeds that people are trying to pass off as variations. Unfortunately, bybs will continue to fool the average dog owner into thinking they are really buying the breed but only smaller, or candy coloured.

[GentleLake]

Anyways, it's a shame and I really hope the AKC and the breed clubs can educate people on both BCs and Aussie

 

Well, I seriously don't think we can count on the ACK to educate people on these breeds to any standard most of us here can endorse. With their raison d'etre being conformation, any "education" they'll have to offer will already be so far off the mark as to be ludicrous.

 

And when they "educate" people about the border collie or Australian shepherd's working ability using their own herding test as a standard, they're again doing a great disservice and, in fact, disseminating a very skewed reality.

 

No, the ACK has already shown itself to be quite incapable of educating anyone about border collies, and I'd assume, working Australian shepherds.

[vanillalove]

Well, I seriously don't think we can count on the ACK to educate people on these breeds to any standard most of us here can endorse. With their raison d'tre being conformation, any "education" they'll have to offer will already be so far off the mark as to be ludicrous.

 

And when they "educate" people about the border collie or Australian shepherd's working ability using their own herding test as a standard, they're again doing a great disservice and, in fact, disseminating a very skewed reality.

 

No, the ACK has already shown itself to be quite incapable of education anyone about border collies, and I'd assume, working Australian shepherds.

This is true, I guess I more mean with at least ensuring breeds and the awful off-shoots are registered as separate entities. I know their view of working dogs is very skewed but at the least, if the AKC stood up and took an active roll in the separation of BCs and the barbies, or Aussies and MASs, then the general public would maybe be more knowledgeable. I don't know if I'm making sense haha!

[GentleLake]

at the least, if the AKC stood up and took an active roll in the separation of BCs and the barbies, or Aussies and MASs, then the general public would maybe be more knowledgeable.

 

Except that, with border collies at least, they've already refused to do this. Back during the border wars, it was on option proposed by, I think, the USBCC when we realized we weren't going to be able to block ACK recognition of border collies.

[urge to herd]

Darn not-working quote function. Anyway, Kayla, if the AKC acknowledged that the differences between working bred and not-working bred dogs of any type, they'd also be acknowledging that they, the American Kennel Club, are not the be-all and end-all of dogs.

 

That is never, ever, ever going to happen.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Root Beer]

- a small Aussie is just a small Aussie, they come in many different packages the way working dogs often do.

 

 

I know a couple of Aussies that are on the smaller side and I like them a lot. They are both "softer" in personality than many other Aussies I have met and they are really, really nice dogs.

 

But they are most definitively not mini-Aussies. The difference is very, very clear.

[Sue R]

Hear, hear! Truer words were never spoken!

 

An ACK breeder (of top-quality show Beagles, if that means anything) told me how the dogs did not lose instinct if they were not bred for the original purpose. He cited the example that a sparrow landed in front of a pointer in the show ring and the dog went "on point". Well, sure, a lot of dogs would adopt that pose if something unexpected landed in front of their face. That doesn't make that dog an effective bird dog any more than my petting a horse makes me a horsewoman.

 

Of course, he also assumed I would think the multiple winner at Westminster in the Border Collie class (Merlin, was it?) was gorgeous and a wonderful example of the breed. *AND* he had "titles", too - or at least had passed an instinct test maybe, so that proved that instinct and ability had not been lost in generations of breeding for show.

 

Duh.

 

Darn not-working quote function. Anyway, Kayla, if the AKC acknowledged that the differences between working bred and not-working bred dogs of any type, they'd also be acknowledging that they, the American Kennel Club, are not the be-all and end-all of dogs.

 

That is never, ever, ever going to happen.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[rushdoggie]

H

 

Of course, he also assumed I would think the multiple winner at Westminster in the Border Collie class (Merlin, was it?) was gorgeous and a wonderful example of the breed. *AND* he had "titles", too - or at least had passed an instinct test maybe, so that proved that instinct and ability had not been lost in generations of breeding for show.

 

Duh.

 

And I think thats really the crux of the problem...people don't understand what a real working dog does partly because we are pretty far removed from our agricultural roots and partly because the AKC watered down tests are so prevalent. So they really don't understand how an instinct test or a dog that points (and btw, my elderly Papillon totally points at birds all the time) doesn't mean much at all really.

 

Its how otherwise good people fall for the conformation hype.