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How to train an instant recall?


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Anyone have any resources or advice on re-training for a dog whose recall's got sloppy?

 

It seems like once she loses focus for something exciting (good or bad), she just doesn't respond.

 

I can call her off, for example, when she first catches a scent- but once she's followed it into the bushes there's no stopping her. I can't walk her down either, because, well, bushes. Even if it's just in the garden, it's a pain to have an unreachable dog somewhere in the thorn bushes. She knows I can't enforce it there, would be my guess?

 

Same thing if she's very afraid of something, or at night if she's in her own garden. She will run and bark. I think she thinks she's supposed to do this, because when she's reprimanded she redoubles her efforts, and she will stop and sit quietly until she sees you watching.

 

It's very frustrating. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does...

 

I've been reading over old posts and am going to get a long line- but I'm not sure if that would help at all with the thorn bush problem. Also thinking of ordering Control Unleashed at some stage when I can justify it.

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My favorite tool for recall is a whistle. If you can whistle through your fingers good and loud, that will do; otherwise a store-bought high-pitched whistle is best. Train the dog that every time the whistle is heard, a yummy morsel follows. Start in the house, transition to the yard, gradually get farther away, and so on. And of course, never let her off leash unless you are in a position to enforce a recall.

Control Unleashed is a good book and may be available from your library. If not, Amazon usually has copies used for under $10.

good luck!

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Classes are a no-go for various reasons (financial, temporal, geographical) so this is going to have to be more at-home. It's also a pain that the weather turns horrible once I decide to do something about this- her recall is invariably perfect in the rain. :rolleyes:

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Nothing like a good ol' walk down. You can get close enough in the bushes. While you're getting it back don't call her if you can't get to her to insist. If you can't do those things then put a long line on her so you can reel her back to where you can insist.

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Bcnewe2- that's really good advice, thank you!

 

I would walk her down most of the time but it was a thick overgrown thorn hedgerow, with a fence, a steep rise, and secondary growth in front: one she's on the other side the only way through is to break someone's hedge or crawl on your belly (which I did contemplate.) You can't even see her to try and get in at the right place, and she went silent. :ph34r: Hence the panic, and this thread.

 

13 years with her on that walk I thought it was fairly safe. Live and learn. :rolleyes:

 

Is the Leslie Nelson booklet of the same name of any use? It will take me a while to get the various things, but I will update if I have any successes/changes/progress.

 

What do I do if she takes ages to come back? Big welcome because she finally came back, or quiet acknowledgement because she blew you off before?

 

Part of my problem is she doesn't blow me off in situations where a long line would be appropriate, but I'm assuming the idea is just to build the habit of responding?

 

Won't she get the difference between having the line on and off? I'm not at all sure she doesn't understand where I can and cannot follow her.

 

Thank you everyone!

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...What do I do if she takes ages to come back? Big welcome because she finally came back, or quiet acknowledgement because she blew you off before?

 

Part of my problem is she doesn't blow me off in situations where a long line would be appropriate, but I'm assuming the idea is just to build the habit of responding?

 

Won't she get the difference between having the line on and off? I'm not at all sure she doesn't understand where I can and cannot follow her.

 

Thank you everyone!

 

As you know, never show displeasure when a dog recalls to you, no matter how slowly or poorly. It's hard to keep negative feelings out of recall voice, particularly when a dog doesn't come after numerous attempts. I found that limiting myself to one or two calls, then getting my coat/shoes on, going out with a leash in my hand, and kindly leading her to the house (or the place you originally called the dog from), subsequently obtained good recall results. For me the leash was needed as sometimes she would duck under the backyard deck, but it may not be a bad idea in any difficult recall situation.

 

You are correct. Getting your dog in the habit of coming when called (through use of long-line in easy situations) will generalize to greater distances and/or when heavily distracted.

 

I believe dogs learn where they can go so that their own version of fun doesn't end. Could you consider using heavy pruning shears or a chain saw to clear a couple paths through the thorny brush? It might be worth the effort when your dog realizes that the vegetation is no longer a barrier for you.

 

While re-training, always have treats in your pocket, and make a big celebration out of a reasonable recall for the dog's level of training.

 

When distracted with squirrels/animals/dogs, especially in our backyard, my dog's recall into the house was a little dicey. I find that stepping on the deck and using an exaggeratedly upbeat/friendly voice works very well. It took a while to discover that walking back into the house, closing the door, and moving back from the window cinched the deal nearly every time. Like magic, she appears at the door waiting for me to open it. Not knowing where I am, and what I'm doing apparently raises enough questions in her mind that she has to come find-out.

 

To her credit, Josie's recall has always been perfect working sheep in the field, from any distance :wacko: . I can't completely figure her out.

 

Persistence, consistence, patience, and remaining calm. It will happen, but sometimes takes a little time. -- Best wishes, TEC

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I would let her drag the long line when she is going out especially if you think she's headed for the hedge. Make it as long as you need and a thin cotton line so it doesn't hinder her from walking around. If she takes forever but listens I would just give her a pat walk away and set up another recall where you can insist on quicker and then party it up!

I would be setting her up at the hedge with the line on her.

If it were me, I'd probably give her a recall and if she wasn't responding I'd give a serious tug or jerk on that line. let go and then call again happily. If she was still not listening I'd yank some more all the while closing the distance with the line. If you have to drag her back to your side I wouldn't reward with lots of praise, I'd be setting it up again.

I do think they know when we can get to them and not. But dragging a long line makes them aware of themselves in relationship to you and your commands.

 

I let my dogs out to potty one at a time. That way no one is to busy and forgets to go. It's then that you could practice your recall (unless you only have one dog then it's always an opportunity) They are less distracted while alone.

 

Am I reading right that she is 13+? if so I might be checking her hearing, no big deal just see how she responds to your voice in the house. At that age she could be starting to lose a bit of her hearing. Or certain tones anyways.

I'm pretty easy on my seniors. They get lots of breaks where I really don't ask much. But a recall is one of those important things.

My last 2 seniors were almost deaf and totally deaf. Not sure what age that happened I think it was gradual. I usually went out and touched them to get their attention or for one, clapping she could feel so I'd clap till she looked then motion her in with my arm. But sometimes their brains forget things so mainly I just keep them safe.

 

Good luck, sometimes we get lazy with what we expect. They can certainly take advantage of that! Pretend you're training it from the start. Don't get mad. Just insistent and consistent.

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Bcnewe- Yes, she's 13 (and a bit). Her hearing is not as good as it was, mostly for low tones- I tend to be moderately high-pitched so she can usually hear me. But I might be quieter and thus not as able to cut through the distractions. The whistle might be easier for her to hear.

 

I find I'm going a lot easier on her with other things. For example I'm more lenient with sit because of the arthritis- sometimes it takes a while for her to do it and sometimes she refuses. Maybe she's generalising that?

 

I might just start bringing a squeaky toy- she nearly always hears or responds to that. But I'd rather she comes when I ask. I also got a light for her collar so I can see her better, and I did some walking at night off-leash with her.

 

She got a scent again, in a hedge where I could get to her (I'd made sure beforehand). I walked her down and reprimanded her, then called her again and treated her and let her go back to sniff. After that she responded really well.

 

TEC- yeah, I know not to get cross with her. When I was searching old threads for advice I found one of the best illustrations of that principle I've ever read- DetaBluez Tess calling the student over and whacking him with the crook, 'using his method'. I just love that story.

 

The hedges aren't mine, one's a local walk, one's a shared boundary (in our own garden).

 

The trouble with the barking at night in the garden is that it's a habit of long-standing which has been encouraged for years. She thinks she's doing a Good Thing. My hope is that if I train a good recall in other situations she'll generalise to that.

 

DVD player's region-locked and I can't find a Really Reliable Recall in the right region.

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If you have cash to spare, Susan Garrett's Recallers course is solid. I noticed a stark difference in the before & after, and it carried over to other aspects of dog ownership. I really like her methods. It's all about controlling reinforcement but allowing a dog to choose. I find that it creates an autonomous partnership between your dog and you... with a wicked recall to boot.

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If you have cash to spare, Susan Garrett's Recallers course is solid. I noticed a stark difference in the before & after, and it carried over to other aspects of dog ownership. I really like her methods. It's all about controlling reinforcement but allowing a dog to choose. I find that it creates an autonomous partnership between your dog and you... with a wicked recall to boot.

Yep, I really really liked her course. We need to go back and work on the games some more now that Feist's a little older and getting to that easily distracted age. I highly recommend the course.
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As long as you need to be able to get to it when she's in the hedge. 20+? I use a 20 long line cause I don't have hedges and I could buy one already made. but I've had other longer and lighter. My methods (if that's what you'd call them) leaves it up to her too. But I can correct the bad behavior I don't want and reward when she makes the right choice.

I don't pull them in unless I can't do anything else.

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It sounds like the value of the recall is not high enough. If one of my dogs needs a refresher course then I take their favorite toy (tug, frisbee) and hide it on my person when we go hiking (or where ever you are having an issue). When they recall quickly we play a wild victory game. Very quickly the value returns to the recall and they begin cocking their ears as they hike, just waiting for the cue. As maintenance, I erratically carry treats/tugs/frisbees on my person. The dogs never know when goodies might appear and their recalls are always at full speed. Also, if I don't have a toy/treat and a dog has given me an amazing recall off something exciting I will play with them (no toys/food needed). Nothing like a party to reward a dog. :)

 

Bethany, Rose, and Loki

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I don't know if there's anything that tops sheep! My older gal comes off stock willingly. My younger boy listens the majority of the time but does occasionally drive me crazy. I'd think the relationship would be important at that point. That and how much work you'd done listening both on and away from stock. If anyone has the perfect solution for stock recalls and reliable, perfect downs I'd love to know. :)

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Must be full moon around here- I've noticed a couple of people having the same problem with their dogs recently. Good to know I'm not alone.

 

One incident where she blew me off and went looking for the scent during the day- I had to remind her- and one where she came in from the garden at night instantly and looked for the treat. Both of those are out of the ordinary. Not sure if that's progress or not but I'll take it. :)

 

The scent followed on the heels of an unexpected horse, so I suppose there's some excuse.

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... If anyone has the perfect solution for stock recalls and reliable, perfect downs I'd love to know. :)

Stock recalls -- Here's what works for us. First, get a good recall from distance with no stock involved.

 

Have your dog settle the sheep in some fashion, such that they are stopped or moving slowly, and grouped together. Get the dog's brain in neutral with a lie down. Give a recall whistle or verbal command. When my dog is out, say more than 100 yds, and turns toward me, I raise my arm above my head and wave a few times. The arm wave seems to strengthen the audible command, and helps the dog pinpoint my exact location early in the recall. Utilize recalls numerous times throughout a practice or work, so that the dog does not automatically conclude that the session is over when he/she hears "that'll do". As you know, avoid recalls that make the dog come through or flank around the sheep to come to your position. Lots of praise and pats on back when the dog arrives back at your location. If appropriate to the job, I try to provide a few minutes of break before returning to work.

 

Josie has generalized the above training to recalls in more difficult situations, for example, when sheep are moving away from her at a good rate.

 

Perfect lie down -- Still working on it. Open to suggestions B) . -- TEC

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Bcnewe- Yes, she's 13 (and a bit). Her hearing is not as good as it was, mostly for low tones- I tend to be moderately high-pitched so she can usually hear me. But I might be quieter and thus not as able to cut through the distractions. The whistle might be easier for her to hear.

 

I find I'm going a lot easier on her with other things. For example I'm more lenient with sit because of the arthritis- sometimes it takes a while for her to do it and sometimes she refuses. Maybe she's generalising that?

 

I might just start bringing a squeaky toy- she nearly always hears or responds to that. But I'd rather she comes when I ask. I also got a light for her collar so I can see her better, and I did some walking at night off-leash with her.

 

She got a scent again, in a hedge where I could get to her (I'd made sure beforehand). I walked her down and reprimanded her, then called her again and treated her and let her go back to sniff. After that she responded really well.

 

TEC- yeah, I know not to get cross with her. When I was searching old threads for advice I found one of the best illustrations of that principle I've ever read- DetaBluez Tess calling the student over and whacking him with the crook, 'using his method'. I just love that story.

 

The hedges aren't mine, one's a local walk, one's a shared boundary (in our own garden).

 

The trouble with the barking at night in the garden is that it's a habit of long-standing which has been encouraged for years. She thinks she's doing a Good Thing. My hope is that if I train a good recall in other situations she'll generalise to that.

 

DVD player's region-locked and I can't find a Really Reliable Recall in the right region.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think she could be having a slight wandering issue? Your description reminded me of my old Dinah, who would sort of wander a bit in the scrub of our ravine lip, get involved with scents, and then just not head back toward the house when I called. I came to the conclusion that her synapses just werent quite connecting the call with the return...plus her hearing wasnt great.

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It's possible, and she has been getting more so recently.

 

But I don't think that's the case- while it's worsened recently she's always been a little like that. And she will do it while you call her from beside her: I had to walk over and tap her on the shoulder recently. I think she hears me, she connects, but she's just intensely focused on what she's doing. And maybe sometimes she's just not quite sure of what the right response is (barking at night) or that it means she has to do it NOW.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Simba, when I first train a recall I use reinforcement that the dog thinks is The Best Thing Ever. For my departed Buzz, that was a chance to go greet a stranger, and yes, I did set that up that scenario many times. He loved it.

 

For a lot of dogs it's food or the Frisbee/toy. Once the recall is 80% or so, I start reinforcing less than perfect ones with a 'good dog!' and a scratch, but no food/greeting/toy. Just a verbal thank you and release.

 

The next time I call, I almost always get a quicker, more enthusiastic response. The dog flies back to me. And THAT response gets the cookies, a good game of tug, etc, etc. Doesn't take long for a border collie to figure out what pay-off is related to which behavior.

 

When I feel we're in good shape with the recall, I'll start using a Very Happy Voice alternately with the food/toy, etc. Any dog that comes when I call gets some positive reinforcement. I've recently started scratching Gibbs' rump when he returns, just for a second. He really likes it.

 

With other commands, I'm not so into rewarding every performance once they're solid with it. I try to at least say 'good dog' so they know I'm watching.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

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Simba, when I first train a recall I use reinforcement that the dog thinks is The Best Thing Ever. For my departed Buzz, that was a chance to go greet a stranger, and yes, I did set that up that scenario many times. He loved it.

 

For a lot of dogs it's food or the Frisbee/toy. Once the recall is 80% or so, I start reinforcing less than perfect ones with a 'good dog!' and a scratch, but no food/greeting/toy. Just a verbal thank you and release.

 

The next time I call, I almost always get a quicker, more enthusiastic response. The dog flies back to me. And THAT response gets the cookies, a good game of tug, etc, etc. Doesn't take long for a border collie to figure out what pay-off is related to which behavior.

 

When I feel we're in good shape with the recall, I'll start using a Very Happy Voice alternately with the food/toy, etc. Any dog that comes when I call gets some positive reinforcement. I've recently started scratching Gibbs' rump when he returns, just for a second. He really likes it.

 

With other commands, I'm not so into rewarding every performance once they're solid with it. I try to at least say 'good dog' so they know I'm watching.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

 

FWIW:

 

Over the years I morphed from an "anti cookie" trainer (my dog will listen because he respects me!) to a "sometimes cookie" trainer (ok rewards help teach new things but have to be faded at some point and then proofed with a correction) to a "mostly cookie" trainer. I find that relationship is often my best reward....I work on it and still reward intermittently with food/toys and my dogs are all pretty into me. I am teaching a young, high drive non-BC competition obedience and its pretty hard stuff and hes doing great, able to work for long stretches with few physical rewards except relationship...

 

All that said, with my own dogs, 99.5% of recalls are rewarded with food or frisbee. Reall,y the only time they are not is if I am caught off guard and have nothing but praise available.The dog food is stored by the back door, theres a cookie jar and I am in the habit of tucking freeze dried lamb lung in my pocket when I take them for walks off leash (it keeps well in the car) and I carry frisbees on those walks anyways. I randomly call them and I get 3 dogs doing 180s and flying back to me. Sometimes if someone is slow I give the treats to the 1st 2 who made it to me with a great deal of show and "miss" the slowpoke.

 

I have called them off of critters, away from other dogs and kids running at them, dead rotting animals that they wanted to roll in, etc. The rewarded recall is so ingrained in them they respond like lightning, even my 10 year old couch princess Papillon whose never really been trained to do much else and loves to critter on field walks. A lamb lung in the hand beats the potential of a mole in the hole I guess.

 

I don't see the harm in it, I don't find it particularly hard to do (theres almost always food available at home somewhere, even of we have to run to the fridge for cheese; and sticking a few in my pocket of we are going to be off lead in public is part of the routine like grabbing a poop bag) and I am rewarded with dogs who pay close attention to me and great recalls.

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