Need assistance with my newly rescued BC

[GentleLake]

I'm sure you're just dying for him to eat out of your hand -- I know I would be! -- but I think this is going to be one of those things that's going to be one ginormous exercise in patience.

 

It's great he's taking treats you're tossing to him. Are you sitting on the floor when you do this? Hopefully not looking directly at him.

 

What I'd do would be to sit on the floor, not looking at him, and toss treats and let him eat them without any reaction from you. Find where his comfort distance is and toss the treats there for a while. When he's really comfortable with that, toss one ever so slightly closer, and when he eats it toss another one a little further away. As he's willing to come in a little closer, adjust your distance accordingly. When he stars getting really close, hold the treat on the fingertips of your outstretched hand. I'd make any treats you toss a little closer really high value treats. A bit of cooked chicken or hot dog or a little lump of liverwurst. Yawn once in a while when you're doing this, and or do some lip licks.

 

You've already seen what happens when you move towards him when he's eating, so remember not to put any pressure on him when you're tossing treats. Try as much as possible to avoid eye contact, which dogs can perceive as threatening.

 

When you do approach him, don't look directly at him and try approaching him in an arc instead of straight on. That's the way friendly dogs greet other dogs, telling each other they're not a threat.

 

Because you're giving him a lot of treats right now, be careful he doesn't start putting on extra weight. You can cut back on his regular food to compensate for the treats, or even use pieces of his kibble for some of the treats you toss his way.

 

You must have been ecstatic when you touched noses!! That's awesome!! Brave boy, Dexter!

 

And great job, Derek, with all your patience!

[sandysfarm]

So nice to read so far, and so many great pieces of advice. If it's ok, I would tell you this. When you're sitting down in any position where your face is visible to your new guy and you know he's watching, look slightly beside him and slowly blink your eyes once in his direction. Do it for him whenever you feel you need to tell him you mean no harm and you're just a friend and it's all good, then settle back quietly, open any book you like and read to him gently...let him hear and feel the full range of your conversational voice when it's not asking anything of him.

[Gloria Atwater]

I think I may have just proven my above post true. My roommates just got home from class and one of their girlfriends came to visit. We sat down for maybe 10 minutes and he came out of his crate. He went in and out a couple times before coming out all the way and actually sniffing one of my roommates. Then he retreated back to his crate for a second before coming back out and making his way up to me for a sniff. It was awesome.

 

Here's a picture from earlier today of our little exercise dealing with getting more comfortable inside the house with the help of his ball. I'm not real good at judging posture, but I believe that his ears being up, mouth open with tongue out, and laying down means that he's pretty comfortable, not too stressed.

 

 

Wow, he's really doing fabulously! It's so great to hear how he's coming along, especially as I remember reading and following Kelso's long journey. It's wonderful how love and patience can save the spirit of a "broken" dog.

 

Per this photo, though, I do see some stress indicators. He's panting, which unless the room is quite warm or he's just been romping hard, is one. Two, the whites of his eyes are showing. Three, he's slightly pulling back from something, kind of has his shoulders tilted away. Very slight avoidance behavior but the thought is there.

 

He's doing great to be there, a long way from hiding behind the bicycles in the garage! But please do listen to everyone who's saying ... patience. Patience and time. Go slooooooooow. I know how badly you want him to realize it's okay, he's safe, he's loved. If you could just imprint on his brain that he has nothing to fear, ever again, you'd do it.

 

But ... it's going to take time. A long time. Think weeks into months, not days into weeks. You'd like him to eat out of your hand, great! But it may take him two months to get there. Accept that. Let him set the pace. Do NOT test his limits. If you find them, he may not forget that you pushed him there for a good long while, and you do not want to inadvertently set him back. If I'm terrified of spiders, I don't want you to bring me one in a jar and set it on my lap, while telling me that it's safe.

 

His limits do not matter. You don't need to find them. He just needs to find you. He needs to find safety and peace, and he can only do that at his own pace. You'll get there if you just take time.

 

Respectfully,

 

~ Gloria

[dereklum]

I don't think I've said this yet, but I really appreciate everyone's kind words and advice. It really gives me a sense of hope and makes me feel like I'm doing something really really good for this dog. I know everyone is saying that these kinds of dogs just take time, time, and more time, but I think the pace of Dexter may be faster than I anticipated.

 

BIG update this morning. I was laying on the couch listening to some music with my eyes closed and the next thing you know, I opened my eyes and there he was. Right in my face. I think he saw me open my eyes so he took a few steps back and laid down. I had realized that over the past couple days, he's been really REALLY interested in, for lack of a better word, exciting objects. Things that move fast, weird colors, weird sounds. I didn't really have anything to wave around, so I wanted to see what would happen if I just waved my hand around. To my surprise, he was really excited about it. At first he just watched it, then he came up to it and sniff it, then before you know it, he was licking me up my arm. I was petting him primarily under the mouth and on the chest and he didn't seem to mind at all. He didn't back away nor was he shaking. His tail wasn't between his legs either. When I stopped, he got his nose under my hand and made me go at it again. I started playfully pushing him around and he would try to put his paw on my hand and we would just go on and on to see who would end up on top (I win of course hahah). He actually seemed to really enjoy this kind of play despite me touching him. His tail was up and wagging and everything! I was so surprised.

 

I did find out that he's only okay with this with one hand and if I don't really move my body too much. I brought out my other hand and he backed away a couple steps. I also tried to sit up a bit and he did the same. Nonetheless, I think this is a HUGE HUGE HUGE step for Dexter.

 

Also, all this morning he's been kind of whining and looking at me and he's been out of his crate all morning as well. I took him outside for a while so he could use the bathroom, but nothing. So after this whole awesome experience, I concluded that he just wanted to play.

 

It's really ironic that we were just talking about taking things slow and then all of a sudden Dexter lets me pet him. I just want everyone to know that I didn't push him to allow this and I was trying my best to look for any big big stress indicators. I saw more positive than negative so I just went with it.

[GentleLake]

Woo hoo! This is fantastic!! What a big step for this boy. :D

 

I think the pace of Dexter may be faster than I anticipated.

 

Each shy or reserved dog has his or her own pace, and I think the advice was mostly meant to warn you against pushing Dexter beyond his pace rather than guessing what his pace would be. But if he had been one of those dogs that was going to take a very long time, we all wanted to make sure that you knew that could be a possibility and be prepared for it if it was.

 

So exciting to hear that it doesn't look like he'll take many long months to come around.

 

I did find out that he's only okay with this with one hand and if I don't really move my body too much. I brought out my other hand and he backed away a couple steps. I also tried to sit up a bit and he did the same. Nonetheless, I think this is a HUGE HUGE HUGE step for Dexter.

 

Excellent observation. You should be proud of your ability to test the waters and learn what his limits are, and then to work within those limits.

 

It's really ironic that we were just talking about taking things slow and then all of a sudden Dexter lets me pet him. I just want everyone to know that I didn't push him to allow this and I was trying my best to look for any big big stress indicators. I saw more positive than negative so I just went with it.

 

I'm sure there will be sudden bursts of improvements, and probably a few setbacks along the way. But you've learned so much (great to be watching for those stress indicators!) that I'm sure you'll be able to make good assessments and adjust to each situation as it arises.

 

And, yes, definitely take advantage of those good moments to reinforce them! As long as you're watching for the breaking point where he becomes uncomfortable and you take the pressure off -- as you obviously did -- it'll help him learn confidence.

 

Can you tell I'm grinning from ear to ear? :D

[urge to herd]

Major good news! WooHOOOOOO for both you and Dexter. As GentleLake says, there are these big wooHOOO moments, and some uhoh moments. You're doing great at reading and responding to him.

 

Congrats on the great improvement. Watching my departed Shoshone come out of her shell was so satisfying, even though she was a stand-offish sort.

 

Good luck with your next adventures!

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[Sue R]

Along with everyone else, I am so pleased to hear about Dexter's progress, and wish you both the very best!

[dereklum]

Thanks for all the kind words!

 

So although Dexter still isn't 100% with me, do you guys think it's possible to start some real training? I would like to think that our relationship is good enough; he follows me practically everywhere I go, he doesn't seem to be afraid of me anymore, just a bit cautious still, he's not afraid to get close to me, but still shies away from me if I reach towards him, and it seems like he likes to always be in a position where he can see where I am, for example if I walk down the hall into a room out of his sight, he'll come look for me. I REALLY want to teach him how to fetch properly. He really enjoys playing with the ball, but when it loses excitement, ie. it stops moving, he just stands there and looks at me. Also if I toss it to him and he does catch it, he brings it away from me rather than towards me. So either way, I have to go get the ball myself. I've seen some 'how to' videos on training fetch, but it seems like those dogs already know how to hold the toy. Also their dogs aren't frightened of them hahah.

 

Or is it still too soon to be doing any real training?

[alligande]

I love reading about dexters progress. There are others on this site with much more experience with shy and shut down dogs but I would advice patience, and then a little more patience keep on working on your growing friendship but don't ask anything extra, you are training him at the moment, he is learning to trust and enjoy your company. You are going to have plenty of time to train him to do things, border collies are happy to keep learning their whole lives.

Just a thought maybe put a ball on a line so you can keep it moving.

[G. Festerling]

I personally believe that there is no better way to bond and to find out about each other, than through training. But low stress play training, shaping would be my approach.

[sandysfarm]

You are safe to start to clicker train him for little things - **If you do, buy a "quiet" clicker - it makes a much softer snap and Petsmart usually keeps them. Karen Pryor's little book Don't Shoot the Dog is pretty much up your alley right now. Clicking is a skill well worth having, especially for teaching freaked out dogs who can't deal with hands or voice for whatever reason. The big deal is that your dog will start to learn how to learn by making himself operant at you for a few behaviours...he'll learn that he can control some of the stuff he likes to come his way AND - he has to Collie-think!!! to figure out what he needs to do to get you to click him - it's a bonding game you play together =huge mental stimulation = tired dog with some of the awful stress-cortisol drained. So you're addressing a few of your concerns at one go. I bet he loves it. Since you're new at clicker (I think?) I would tell you to pay a trainer for an hour to work just with you...away from the dog. Or, cheaper, go see Sue Ailsby on line: sue-eh.ca. and you can youtube her - she's extremely clear and very empathetic.

Have fun - if you keep it real simple I think you'll see happiness soon.

[dereklum]

I just thought of this, but here's one problem that I have with beginning training. He's not very interested in not high value rewards. In other words, he ONLY responds to high value, such as baked chicken and his ball. ONLY SOMETIMES will he even consider taking the other kinds of treats that I have for him. Most of the time he'll just look at them, then look at me, and then they'll just be there forever haha. With this said, I don't want to train him with high value rewards because, of course, he's going to get used to them. It could be that he's just not that interested in food since he doesn't really like to eat his kibble and some days he doesn't eat at all until he's really hungry. Like today for instance. I put food in his bowl almost three hours ago and he still hasn't touched it. Not his kibble nor his bits of baked chicken, which he loves. He'll eat his chicken if I toss it to him, but won't eat his kibble. I do put chicken in his food every day since that's what the lady at the FH did, so I'm trying to keep it the same. What I do in attempt to have him eat everything is tearing the chicken into tiny pieces and mixing it with his kibble. That way, theoretically, he can't eat the chicken without eating his kibble.

 

ANYWAYS, what do I use as a reward if he just isn't interested in food?

[G. Festerling]

1) my guys eat or they don't. If they do not finish their food in their crates, I will let them get one refill the next night...and provided they are good on stool, activity level, drinking...if they still don't finish I will not give additional for a night. At that point I re evaluate. My free dogs get 15 minutes. What does not get eaten will be picked up. I feed rations and do not free feed. No treats are mixed in food ever. They are served seperate. Unless I pour some chicken stock over the food.

 

2) I acknowledge that with a new dog you maybe hesitant to not provide enough. I am also not a fan of letting a dog go hungry. I have however had a dog that ate his rations only from me. And as it took him a day or two to give in enough, he probably did not end up getting his full ration in the beginning. Which probably made him value his kibble a bit more.

 

3) High value treats are different from dog to dog. Some of mine love string cheese, liver wurst, hotdogs, commercial treats, chicken hearts or gizzards, you name it. Some switch.

 

4) you can use two balls for rewards, two so you don't have to fret over him bringing it into your space to begin with. Tricks, behaviors...the imagination and gravity are about the only limits.

[dereklum]

I didn't quite understand your #1. You give your dogs a 15 minute window to eat and if they don't eat, they don't eat that meal? I would also like to start a routine for meals, but I never know when Dexter is going to eat. Sometimes he eats right away, sometimes he waits a few hours. He's never been very excited about food. Also, I'm still on his schedule right now since we don't have that 100% relationship, which I feel like is probably the best thing still for him. I don't think he's ready to be treated as a 'normal' dog just yet.

 

Also, do you think you can elaborate a bit more on #2?

 

The two balls is a good idea. I'll have to go buy another, though I haven't quite figured out what exactly he likes about the ball. He doesn't seem to like the ball itself since he doesn't always grab it. I'm not sure if I've mentioned it before, but once the ball loses excitement, he just looks at it. He'll try to grab it once or twice, but after that, he just lets it go. He might only enjoy chasing it right now. I might try to buy a tennis ball and put a long rope through the ball as Alligande advised and see if he likes that better.

 

 

On a more general note, Dexter seems to be gaining more confidence every day. Last night, he slept outside of his crate for the first time. And ever since then, it seems like he hasn't gone back in it either. He's moved to a spot outside his crate, but still next to it, which is understandable. When he and I are home alone, he's always walking around and sniffing things, even me sometimes. He follows me practically everywhere I go and seems to always want to keep me in his sight, which I mentioned in my previous post but I must mention again because it makes me so happy. Still won't let me touch him on a normal basis, but he's way more comfortable being close to me. I can't wait for the day he nudges my hand to pet him. I can already imagine it. There's going to be fireworks hahah. That's how it was when he let me pet him the first time a few days ago. It was like the fourth of July, but in my imagination.

[G. Festerling]

Yes, they get a window of time to eat in. That way it brings some structure.

 

But he is a normal dog. So he has some insecurities. Many do. Some more. But giving him a set time to eat, getting some security in the day, some predictability is not a bad thing. I also allows for easier monitoring how much they eat instead of grazing all day long. You could make the case for, why should he value a treat if he can have something all day long? To me, a treat is not just a high value tasty, smelly food morsel but also getting it from me. Of course that would hardly be a reward for him right now being that he is not that bonded to you just yet. But take one step at a time and evaluate how you want to look and use the tools you have available. When you decide in your mind how to walk down this road, it will be easier for him to follow.

 

Along many different methods that I was exposed to in my training journey with the dogs, some advocate withholding food so that the dogs are a bit more hungry. Often for dogs that are so so about food. My current pup likes treats, but they are not high enough in value to her that she will perform things for them that don't interest her. Like nosework for example. With her I used her food drive to teach the basics, her toydrive to up the urgency and then had to work on balancing the two so she found the joy in the work for me with the reward of the interaction paired with possible, but not always, play or treat.

Now I will say, I do not like the idea of withholding food. However, if you divide his kibble (and if you want food to be a value for him you will have to take the treat out of the kibble like the chicken) in smaller portions, limit his access time to the food, if he does not eat when presented, he will get a bit hungrier. Then I would offer him the food out of a bowl possibly further away from you. Give him a smaller portion, you may even walk away in the beginning, but come back after a little while and take the uneaten portion away. Do this several times during the day. You can move closer if it works. Play it by ear. For me, this was only ever needed with a near feral dog.

 

But again, it all depends on how much want to do with him. I don't believe that putting a lead on him would be detrimental to him. As it is not the lead but the presence on the other end that will make the difference. If you are the kind that frets when he hangs back a bit because he is unsure or something, or the kind that just ignores his signals of discomfort and stress...then yes, it is less likely to be a pleasant experience. Good partners don't do that. They find the right balance in reading the animal but yet still showing a alternative behavior. I think, taking him for walks, with just spending time and talking, bonding, smelling, seeing and being in each others presence while engaged with each other (no ipod, cellphone etc), is a good way to pick up a ball on a tug, throw it around a bit, if he is interested maybe offer it, maybe not. Make him wonder what is going on in your fun world and see if he would not like to join. Think flit pole here. Don't be loud, overbearing, pushy etc. Read him. He will let you know. Think of signals he may give you as an asking for help.

 

 

 

 

[GentleLake]

Some dogs will self regulate with food. Dexter doesn't appear to be too skinny from the pictures you've posted -- and it's easier to see in pictures on a smooth coated dog -- so unless he's obviously too skinny, I wouldn't worry about it. And I'm not sure what you're using as a guideline for how much to feed him, but the recommendations on most dog food bags is too much!

 

I second the recommendations to feed only at mealtimes, picking any uneaten food up after 15-20 minutes, and to stop adding the chicken to his food.

 

If he's a little hungrier, he's more likely to respond to food used as a reward, and if the higher value chicken is reserved for rewards, he's more likely to respond to it as a high value treat. If he's at a good weight, you might even cut back on the kibble just a little bit to keep him interested in food as a training reward, and also to compensate for the fact that he'll be getting more food in the form of treats.

 

I do think he's probably ready to start with some very low key training. Forget about fetching for now. Concentrate on very simple things that will bring him closer to you and help him build trust and confidence.

 

I sincerely doubt he'll be ready for a training class for a while, but it might be a good idea to locate a good positive reinforcement trainer and explain your situation. Sometimes trainers will let you come and observe some classes without your dog. Even if it's only for the first one, it would be very valuable in seeing how they "charge" the clicker (easy enough to do without seeing it, though), and start shaping some rudimentary behaviors, like "touch", which is touching your hand. It's a great foundation both for getting him to approach you and for building on training other behaviors. You can also search YouTube for videos.

 

Keep the ball for play for the time being, and try to stop playing before he becomes bored or disinterested on his own. You can teach him to fetch later. (It took 3 1/2 years for Bodhi to learn how to fetch; he just wasn't ready to put the pieces together much before that, and he was a much more confident dog even during his first wary period than Dexter is. Remind me later and I'll tell you how I did it.) But definitely stop while he's still interested. You may find that the ball may become a very useful reward for him later on, and you want to keep it interesting and fun for him.

 

So, yeah. Start some training, but keep it very low key to start out with. As he gains more confidence -- and knowing how to respond to cues in training is a big confidence builder for a dog -- you'll be able to step it up. But for now -- dare I repeat it? -- slow and steady wins the race.

[dereklum]

Awesome advice! I'm going to start taking his food away from him today. Also maybe feeding a bit less since he already doesn't finish it all sometimes. Hopefully in about a week he'll start getting the hang of it. And of course baby steps, but what would you consider 'low key training'? Simple things like come, stay, sit, etc.? The simple obedience things? And I think I read that training when hungry and tired is better. They're not too reactive cause they're a bit tired, but they're hungry and they know you have delicious food if they do things you like, right?

[G. Festerling]

I think you rock! Just wanted to say this. He is a lucky dog to have you be willing to work with him. Which ever approach works for you....you two will do great! Because you care to work on it!

 

 

Have you thought about, along side of working with him on your own, to maybe look into some online schools? Just for you to see what is out there? Fenzi Dog Sports Academy offers courses in very basic drive building. On how dogs learn. Something like that may add to your overall fun in working with your boy!

[gcv-border]

Simple, beginning training IMHO would include:

 

Looking at you when you call his name

A "watch me" command (very similar to above, but you can work on extending the time he looks at you until you give him his reward, and also he should look at you in the presence of distractions when you say "watch me"

A "touch" command - as Gentle Lake suggested

 

I recommend the above since you are still trying to build a bond, and these might help.

[GentleLake]

Yep. These are where I'd start, too. Name recognition, "look at me" or "watch" (i.e. you) and "touch", in that order.

 

Again, I'd start by watching some videos for the process. Obviously name recognition will require you to speak, but the other should probably be started without the cues, using shaping instead to start and adding the cues later.

 

Come, sit, stay, etc. will come later. Start with these very low key exercises first.

 

ETA: Yes, things should go better if he's hungry; he'll be more interested in earning the treats

 

But tired? I wouldn't think so. I wonder where that advice came from. I can see not trying to train when a dog's totally wound up, but not actually tired.

[sandysfarm]

If you start "watch me" I'd click/treat when he looks at your chin, or your shoulder rather than insisting on him looking right into your eyes - that takes more confidence than he probably has right now You can always switch it up later.

[dereklum]

Oh I get you guys. So things that don't require a lot from him. He actually already knows his name pretty well and, surprisingly, does look me in the eyes almost every time. The duration varies, but almost every time right in the eyes. And I've seen videos for these commands. Techniques such as putting the reward by your face or where you want him to look and slowly fading the 'lure' as he learns seemed to be a common one.

 

By tiring him out, I don't mean to totally drain him before a session. Just possibly get some excess energy he might have out. At least I thought I saw that somewhere haha. I might have been mistaken.

 

To clarify, the 'touch' command is the baby step to a possible 'hold', correct? Just touching something with his nose, paw, or anything? I'll have to pick up a clicker some time this week so we can start the fun as soon as possible!

 

I'll have to look into Fenzi and other positive reinforcement training facilities as well. From what I remember, my dad took my last dog, a golden lab, to a class that was a bit aggressive, definitely not something for Dexter. The teachers were suggesting pronged collars and their methods were definitely not the 'positive reinforcement' I've been reading about. But hey, I guess different things work for different dogs, because it seemed to kind of work for my lab.

[dereklum]

So Dexter has recently been licking his anus a lot and every time he does, the room kind of fills with the scent of his urine. When he stops, the smell kind of goes away. I did a quick Google search and people were suggesting that his anal glands are full. Does anyone second this? He's been dewormed so we can rule that out.

 

If they are, how do you suggest going about having a vet empty them for him? Since he still isn't a very open dog.

[Gloria Atwater]

Have you had him in to a vet, yet? If it is his anal glands, if you take him to the vet it's a fairly simple procedure. Just in and out in a matter of minutes, unless he requires sedation.

~ Gloria

[GentleLake]

Someone just sent me this link, which has some great tips you might find useful in training Dexter:

http://www.sacramentodogbehavior.com/6mistakesbmod.htm

 

To answer a couple of your questions: "Touch" in this context is usually a nose touch, which encourages him to come closer to you and especially your hand, learning that good things happen when he touches your hand. There's no reason why you can't shape for a paw touch as well, but do it separately, after you've got the nose touch down pat, and use a different verbal cue for it.

 

I'm not quite certain what you're asking in the next question, but I think you mean to "hold" something in his mouth? If I'm right, no, "touch" doesn't have anything to do with that. It's what I've explained above. Again, as a completely different exercise, there's no reason you can't teach Dexter to take and hold something in his mouth, but make it a different training exercise, i.e at a different time. Don't overload him with too many exercises at once at first. He may well have to learn how to learn. It seems like it should be a natural thing, and in a way it is, but this kind of deliberate learning an exercise is something that can be quite foreign to an unsocialized dog. Once he gets it, though, there's practically no limit on what you'll eventually be able to teach him to do, if you're so inclined.

 

I suspect the licking might be an anal gland issue. You can either take him to a vet to have them expressed, or many groomers will do it. Either way, I'd want to make sure that whoever does it is experienced with working with fearful dogs and will take some extra care with Dexter.

 

I just changed vets because my old vet -- who was an excellent diagnostician and very competent -- has a terrible bedside manner and made my very confident and friendly older dog so afraid of him that she'd start shaking as soon as we walked in his door. She just loves the new vet, who gives her treats and talks to her and pets her instead of just grabbing her without so much as a hello and sticking a thermometer up her butt. I know Dexter isn't going to be comfortable with a vet or groomer petting or schmoozing with him, but there are still better ways of dealing with the issue than someone just grabbing him and expressing the glands. So be sure to ask around for recommendations from people, and talk to the receptionists and let them know in advance that Dexter needs some extra TLC. It's a short procedure, and you can be in and out of there with a minimum of stress.