Need assistance with my newly rescued BC

[sandysfarm]

personally I wouldn't draw back on the good stuff in his food bowl. For one thing he needs strong dietary support for the stress his system is currently under and for another, you have an arrow in your quiver that you're not using...he's meat oriented.

For what it's worth, I have completely changed the attitude of newly adopted, scared and depressed greyhounds in a matter of a couple of days by switching them to a raw meat diet. You'd be amazed at the bond that 6 ounces of ground beef twice a day creates - whether you continue that way for always is a different story but in every case I deal with, it's taken by the dog as an enormous gesture of goodwill on the owner's part.

[jvw]

If he's snapping and biting he is being pushed too far. Take it slower.

[G. Festerling]

I hate to be the spoiler. But I would have to opt for taking a slip lead and putting it over his head. But I also know how to. It's not always pretty. But I also don't allow snapping at me for any reason.

[D'Elle]

Today I wanted to take him outside for a little bit to feel the sun since it was such a nice day, and when I went to put the leash on him, he started nipping at me. He did this once before, but I assumed it was because of the approach. That time, my dad approached him in a very dominant and threatening manner. What I would usually do is approach him very low and slowly trying not to look at him. He let me get very close, but when I went for the collar, he'd turn his head and bite.

 

I read somewhere that you could try to divert his attention with something like a toy or food, but Dexter doesn't seem very interested in anything except me when I'm around. Any other techniques I should try?

I would not be trying to put a leash on this dog in any form, slip lead or attached to collar or any other kind. I would give him more time. It is possible that he was traumatized or frightened by someone who had hold of his collar. But his reasons for being so scared don't matter.....he is scared. Hold off on leashing him until he knows and trusts you better. Otherwise you may end up in a situation where the dog either thinks he can bite you if he doesn't like what you are doing, or else in an antagonistic relationship wherein you are correcting him for attempting to bite, scaring him more by correcting him, and a viscous circle ensues. Better just to avoid the whole scenario completely until he has learned to trust you. That could take months. At the risk of repeating myself.......please...take it very slowly. If you rush, you will possibly set up worse problems than the dog already has.

[urge to herd]

Today I wanted to take him outside for a little bit to feel the sun since it was such a nice day, and when I went to put the leash on him, he started nipping at me. He did this once before, but I assumed it was because of the approach. That time, my dad approached him in a very dominant and threatening manner. What I would usually do is approach him very low and slowly trying not to look at him. He let me get very close, but when I went for the collar, he'd turn his head and bite.

 

I read somewhere that you could try to divert his attention with something like a toy or food, but Dexter doesn't seem very interested in anything except me when I'm around. Any other techniques I should try?

My most honest response to this is Do Not Try To Trick This Dog Into Anything. He is very mistrustful of humans, and anything you do in this manner is likely to backfire. If you absolutely have to do something, do it quickly, without hiding your intention.

 

Will he let you touch him yet? Start with that. If you can, stroke him gently around the neck, get him used to having his collar handled. Watch for his eyes softening, his breathing slowing. If he tenses up and stays that way, he's not ready for this level of trust yet. Leave the leash out of sight the first several times.

 

If you have to get a leash on him, try putting approaching him with the lead, offering him a favorite treat through the circle of the lead, letting him see what you're doing. You might be able to gradually draw the circle of the lead over his head. If you get that far, give him another yummy treat then drop the lead and let him drag it a bit. Whenever you pick up the lead, he gets another tiny bit of yummy treat.

 

Get the lead on him, however you need to, then let him get used to it. Leave it on him for a while, then try to coax him along outside.

 

Good luck - you're a very kind and determined person to be taking on a 'project' dog like this guy.

 

And no more of the dominant stuff from anyone, it's proven itself to be a bad idea for this dog.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[sandysfarm]

I would not be trying to put a leash on this dog in any form, slip lead or attached to collar or any other kind. I would give him more time. It is possible that he was traumatized or frightened by someone who had hold of his collar. But his reasons for being so scared don't matter.....he is scared. Hold off on leashing him until he knows and trusts you better. Otherwise you may end up in a situation where the dog either thinks he can bite you if he doesn't like what you are doing, or else in an antagonistic relationship wherein you are correcting him for attempting to bite, scaring him more by correcting him, and a viscous circle ensues. Better just to avoid the whole scenario completely until he has learned to trust you. That could take months. At the risk of repeating myself.......please...take it very slowly. If you rush, you will possibly set up worse problems than the dog already has.

 

 

Im onside here

- the world wont end if he doesnt get a walk. Just hang with him and think small. He'll come

around ...or he wont ...probably

he will lol but dont add

any expectations or deadlines - you have wnough on your plate just

making permanent friends.

[D'Elle]

Why are you even trying to put a leash on him? Where's the fire? Kelso did not go out on a leash for months.

There is no need to put a leash on this dog and if you insist on doing so you will undo any good you have done so far with him. If you trick him into something he will just take that much longer to learn to trust you.....or he may never trust you.

Please listen to what people here are saying to you and do not rush this dog.

 

I hope I can be forgiven for posting again on this. I am doing so because i care a lot about scared dogs. And have a little experience with them. And know that the thing they need most of all is time and patience.......time and patience......and then more time. Please, please be patient with this dog. Please do not continue to push him.

[Gloria Atwater]

I think you've gotten some excellent advice, here. Slow down. He doesn't need to go on leash yet. He's telling you that he's not ready. The only way to remove his snapping is to remove the pressure you're putting on him. It may not seem like pressure to you. It may seem entirely normal. But for him, it's clearly too much.

Think in terms of months, not days or weeks. Go slow. Let him show you what he's ready for. Best of luck!

~ Gloria

[GentleLake]

If I'm not mistaken, I got the idea somewhere that Derek doesn't have a fenced yard, or that Dexter managed to escape the fenced yard. (I think maybe it was the latter?)

 

If I'm correct about this, then (other than the obvious choice of making the fence escape proof, if possible) what other options does Derek have for getting the dog out to potty?

 

I agree that not having to leash the dog would be the best case scenario right now, and that either constructing an escape proof enclosure for him or escape proofing an existing fence would be the ideal. But if for some reason that's not possible, are there other recommendations for him?

 

ETA: What about letting Dexter drag a leash all the time?

 

Of course there's a strong possibility he might decide to make it a chew toy.

[sandysfarm]

fast hijack, sorry! reminds me I put my last collie on a short soft drag line for her safety just after she came in to me for assessment. She let me clip it on with no fuss, walked 6 feet away, sat down, looked me straight in the eye and chewed the line off. Awesome.

[dereklum]

I appreciate everyone's comments, but I just want to clarify that although I am pushing him a bit, I'm jut trying to learn his limits. As he's getting more and more used to me, I'm trying to see exactly how comfortable he is with me. I completely understand that the snapping is just an indication that he's being pushed too hard and, of course, I stopped immediately after he told me this.

 

My reason behind trying to take him out the other day was just to get some fresh air. I know how much dogs, especially collie's, love to be outdoors and the other day was just such a beautiful day to pass up. I thought it'd be good for him since he's not allowed outside on his own because, like Gentle Lake said, he's found a way through my fence. Again, I saw it was too much for him and I stopped. I only say it was 'aggressive behavior' because sometimes he'll snap at me and sometimes he won't.

 

ON A BETTER NOTE, I had a big breakthrough today. I found out what he really enjoys. The other night I caught him playing with the ball I bought him so I conducted an experiment. First I squeaked the ball to see if it would grab his attention. It did somewhat, but not quite what I was looking for. Next, I started bouncing the ball. Oh boy did this get him excited. The bouncing got him ears up, head up, tail up, standing, and even tail wagging. This is the first time I've EVER seen him wag his tail in front of me. It took some energy to get him out of the crate though. I had to run around bouncing the ball in front of him. He would whine while wagging his tail and focusing on the ball as if he didn't know if he wanted to leave the safety of the crate to go after the ball or not. I found out that if I bounce the ball where he can't see it, he'll come out and chase me. He gets really close to me too. He doesn't know how to fetch it yet though. If I throw the ball, all he'll do is look at the ball, then look at me and wait for me to pick it up again and bounce it so he can chase me. I did this for about an hour today before bedtime. I think I ended the night on good terms. He had his head up, ears up, tail up, and tongue before he went to sleep.

 

Anyways, sorry for the long post. I'm just really excited and now I can finally get him a little exercise while gaining his trust at the same time. Two birds, one stone.

[GentleLake]

Derek, it's been said before but it bears repeating . . . PLEASE DON'T PUSH THIS DOG!

 

"Testing his limits" is not what Dexter needs. It's NOT going to help things along, and in fact, may slow down his progress. The fewer bad things that happen to him in his interactions with you (bad from his point of view, of course), the better. The more bad, or even uncomfortable, things that come from you, the longer it will take for him to loose his distrust of you.

 

And testing his limits could also backfire in a big way. If he learns that nipping at you gets you to back off from what you're doing, the next time (or some other time down the road) he may really bite. It's a simple reward situation. He's self-rewarded for nipping because he gets something that in his eyes is desirable -- your backing off.

 

And if it gets to this point there are 2 important things to consider. 1) You may have created a dog who's now willing to bite people -- IOW, you will have changed a fearfully submissive dog in to a fear aggressive dog. 2) It will be nobody's fault but yours.

 

There's a fine line between a fearfully submissive dog and a fear biter. PLEASE don't risk pushing him over that edge. Too many fear biters loose their lives because of it.

 

If Dexter was able to get out of the yard, then fix the fence. Repair holes, block off gaps at the soil line, add some welded wire to reinforce it or even to make a smaller secure area for the time being. This is a much preferable way of letting him get some fresh air (when you can be there with him to supervise) and to give him potty breaks than stressing him every time by putting a leash on him.

 

You have to remember that stress releases hormones that keep the dog tense and edgy. It takes a while for these hormones to dissipate, so every time you introduce a new or additional stressor you're guaranteeing that he can't fully relax. Can you see how this is working against you?

 

I think it's very cool that he's so interested in the ball. Definitely something you can use to get him out of his head. Think how much better it'll be when you can do this in the securely fenced yard.

 

ETA: Dexter has the rest of his life after he becomes more confident to get plenty of sunshine and fresh air.

[D'Elle]

I second everything that GentleLake says above. The way to progress with a dog like this is not to "test his limits". What you see as testing his limits, he will experience as pushing and it will backfire.

Note that I say "will", not "might".

 

It is great that he likes the ball! With Kelso, it was a squeaky toy that first brought real life to his being. If the way to this dog's heart and life is play, then you have a great tool to use, there. Keep playing with him with the ball, in whatever way he likes.

 

Kelso ended up being a dog who loved to tug, but it took months of patient slow gentle encouragement for him to learn that it was OK to tug. Just the fact that your dog lit up when he saw the ball bouncing is a great thing. I suggest you just spend time with him every day bouncing the ball. Just bounce it, don't ask him to do ANYthing with it. Just keep bouncing it. Eventually he will come out, bit by bit, and want to participate. But let him do it at his own pace.

 

As suggested above, fix your fence so he cannot get out.

And if that is not possible, then maybe you can create a smaller area he cannot get out of? If none of these things can be done, then do not worry about "fresh air". I know you only mean the best, but it is a lot more important that the dog feel safe than that he get fresh air and sunlight, at this stage of the game. For him, the outdoors may not be something he loves. It may be scary!

 

The thing about dealing with a dog that is this scared and shut down is that a lot of your previous assumptions about dogs (such as "collies love to be outdoors") become useless because they do not apply to this dog. You have to start all over and find out what applies to this dog.

[dereklum]

I see where you guys are coming from. Lesson learned and thanks for the advice! Well last night I had to bring him back to school with me as I was staying at my parents place for the break and their schedules don't allow them to give him the attention he needs. Against all the advice given, there was no other choice. He does well in the car so the ride there wasn't an issue. He did freak out a little when we got to the house though, but once I set up his crate just the way it was at my parents place, chew toys and all, he got comfortable pretty quick.

 

This morning I got him outside with the squeaky ball and we had a little play session. Took a little break and to my surprise, he started exploring the backyard. The yard at this house is much more dog proof. There's a layer of cement under the fence so there will be no digging under fences here. As he was exploring, he even did his business under my supervision. I brought him back inside and went out for lunch. I came back and had another play session and found out that if I have the ball in my hand, he'll actually chase me. We did this until I got tired.

 

Despite the big change, I think he's still progressing very well. There was a setback, but he bounced back very quickly. I'm convinced that he knows who I am and that I mean no harm, he just doesn't quite trust me yet.

 

Also I'd like to add that he's starting to show signs of becoming a "normal" dog. He's starting to lick himself, scratch himself, and the occasional shake. His ears are up most of the time and his mouth is open sometimes as well. Sometimes he'll come out of his crate for a brief moment and sniff around the place. He's also learned very quickly that a squeak of the ball and sound of the door opening means it's play time. I haven't noticed any of these behaviors until today, though it may be because I've never spent a WHOLE day with him before. Nonetheless he's come a long way since he came home with me.

 

Here's a picture of him from earlier today in a much better state than the previous two photos I posted.

[dereklum]

The last couple days have been really successful with Dexter. He comes out quite often to eat or drink or even just sniff around while I'm in the room. He knows when it's time to go outside and play as well. If I walk towards the door, he'll get up and out of his crate really quick and follow me real close. Today he made some big progress. Earlier tonight I was in the living room with two friends and he came out of his crate while we were watching a movie and started walking towards us. He got maybe within 5 feet of us before turning around and going back. Dexter has never seen these people before either. I was really surprised. Also just a few minutes ago, my roommate was tossing the ball with him outside while I was watching and he came by me and sniffed me for the very first time. It wasn't just a short quick sniff either. He REALLY sniffed me.

 

He's making wonderful progress. I couldn't have done it without everyone's advice. I want to thank you guys again for helping me out with Dexter.

[Sue R]

I'm glad to hear that he seems to be doing so well, and I'm sure everyone is grateful that they were able to give you their advice. As you say, sometimes there is no choice (although sometimes you are able to make choices when you have to do *something*) and it sounds like he weathered the transition well.

[GentleLake]

Great news! Good boy, Dexter!

 

I'm so happy to hear he's making so much progress. Coming into the room when your friends were there was a huge and positive step. And it sounds like your roommate's a help with the ball. So awesome that Dexter loves the ball so much. I can tell it's been a big help.

 

Great too that you now have a safe yard with easy access for him. Now that you won't have to put pressure on him to put a leash on him to take him out, you'll be able to work on that much more slowly and let him learn that handling and leashes are good things in his own time.

 

I can't wait to hear more about Dexter's progress as time goes by.

[dereklum]

I'm noticing a slight difference in his behavior. He seems to be very focused on me a lot of the time now. I'll look over at him from time to time while I'm on the couch minding my own business and it seem he's always looking at me or in my direction, unless he's sleeping. Sometimes, it even seems as if he is anxious to come out of his crate and lay down on the floor, but he just doesn't have the guts to do it yet.

 

I've been trying some exercises with him to get him comfortable with the house. He'll virtually follow me everywhere I have his ball in my hand, so a couple times a day, I'll take the ball and just sit on the couch or down the hallway and I'll just let him stand in front of me. Eventually he'll lay down, but not yet on his side, and when he gets his hands on the ball, he'll take it back to his crate. I'll also do this with other people present just to get him a bit more used to people. I think it's helping him gain the courage to explore the house on his own because he will once in a while come out and sniff around.

 

Also he sleeps a lot, like A LOT. Is this normal? He's almost 10 months old and he sleeps most of the day. The only exercise he gets is his play sessions which vary between 3-4 times a day ranging from half an hour to an hour and a half each session. I've been telling myself that it's due to being too scared to come out and engage with me so he thinks he has nothing to do, but I just want to make sure.

[dereklum]

I think I may have just proven my above post true. My roommates just got home from class and one of their girlfriends came to visit. We sat down for maybe 10 minutes and he came out of his crate. He went in and out a couple times before coming out all the way and actually sniffing one of my roommates. Then he retreated back to his crate for a second before coming back out and making his way up to me for a sniff. It was awesome.

 

Here's a picture from earlier today of our little exercise dealing with getting more comfortable inside the house with the help of his ball. I'm not real good at judging posture, but I believe that his ears being up, mouth open with tongue out, and laying down means that he's pretty comfortable, not too stressed.

[GentleLake]

I hate to burst your bubble, especially because you're making great progress with Dexter.

 

But I think it'll be helpful if you can identify some of the stress signals that he's showing in the picture, which indicate that he's really not relaxed at all.

 

He's averting his gaze away from you (I assume you're directly in front of him taking the picture). His ears are up, but they're also back slightly. His lips are drawn and his tongue is out more than you'd expect from a relaxed dog. It almost looks like he's just been exercising and is still panting a little.

 

The biggest thing, though, is the whale eye, that is the whites of his eyes showing. That a definite indicator of a fearful dog.

 

I don't want to discourage you, because you have really been trying hard and are getting some good results for your effort.

 

But I think it's important to caution you not to get too comfortable just yet. Being able to recognize these stress markers is going to be really important so that you know when not to push him beyond his comfort zone.

 

It could also be useful for you to learn some natural canine calming signals that you can use when he's showing stress. You can yawn, look away, turn your back, lick you lips, for example. Here's a website that offers some great pictures of dogs offering calming signals to each other (http://en.turid-rugaas.no/calming-signals-photos.html) -- but there's no reason you can't use them top help Dexter relax and perceive that you're not threat, too. Teach them to your roommates and friends who come over, too.

 

There are some great websites and YouTube videos of canine body language. Try to take a look at some when you get a chance.

 

It's so awesome, though, to see that Dexter's out and about with you and your friends! He's really coming out of his shell.

[dereklum]

Oh I see. You're right. I still have a lot to learn with canine body language, but at least I can say this is a lot better than before and possibly even better than the first two pictures I posted on the previous page.

[jvw]

dereklum, I am soooo very blown away and pleased that you take the advice here seriously and never get defensive! And it is admiral the task you are taking on so seriously. I for one do not have any patience. This is not something I could do.

 

Kudos to you! And many well wishes for the future to the two of you.

[D'Elle]

dereklum, you're doing a good job. I am impressed by Dexter's progress. The fact that he is coming out to greet people that he has never met before is a big positive sign.

In the photo he is definitely more relaxed than he appears to be in previous ones, and that is progress to be celebrated. For him to (or, at the least, the source of good things, like the ball! It was the squeaky toy that got Kelso to look at a person other than me for the first time.)

 

Thank you for doing good work with this dog. I am glad that you came here and are so willing to consider the advice you are receiving. I look forward to hearing more about Dexter as he grows into a happy dog. :-)

[mtnfrank]

Very encouraging that he is making progress, but I can't help but feel that a lot, maybe too much, is asked of him at this time.

 

Parents, roomates, friends, girlfriends... that sounds like a lot of new people for Dexter to take in quickly. A simple routine and fewer people might be better for him at this point allowing him to better understand what is expected from him and adapt.

 

Dogs do sleep a lot, but a dog that really sleeps a lot in this situation to me doesn't indicate that 'he has nothing better to do'. A stressful situation is enormoulsy draining on a dog, thus the need to sleep more.

 

What does it mean? Maybe it is a sign that he had a lot of accumulated stress and is nowstarting to relax a bit more and is sleeping it off to recover. Or it could mean that there is still a lot of stress in his daily life and thus needs to sleep more.

 

Food for thought,

 

I really recommand also the little booklet by Pat McConnell "Love has no age limit" written for adopters.

[dereklum]

Oh the stress factor does make a lot of sense. I've never thought about that. Also, new people aren't over often, it's just once in a while and I make sure to tell everyone not to bug him and just leave him alone. If he decides to do something, he'll do it.

 

Are there any exercises I can do to help him feel more comfortable with eating out of my hand? He's still too scared to do so and the only time I can really get close to him is when we're playing. Last night we touches noses haha. I feel like I won't be able to touch him until he lets me eat out of my hand, but I don't know where to start with that. He'll eat his meal with me present, but will stop if I move towards him. He'll also eat if I toss him food.