Training treats considered as detrimental

[mum24dog]

I have a lot anti-establishment tendencies but try to avoid uneccasery conflicts

 

 

OT I know but I have to say that you clearly haven't lost any of your essential Britishness.

[mum24dog]

ETA And Donald did reference mannerly off lead dogs, which is a wonderful thing but not a safe practice for many of us in our daily lives. I used to see a guy walking his well trained Golden off leash through a small but bustling downtown. The sight never filled me with admiration. Instead, I always thought he was being arrogant and careless to put his beautiful dog at risk like that. It only takes a couple seconds for the dog to be a dog responding to some stimuli, step into the wrong place before you can call him back, and get hit by a car. Then congratulations, you now own the best trained dead dog in town.

 

 

And the only dog that can be 100% trusted never to put a foot where it shouldn't is a robot with an infallible robot owner who has 100% attention on the dog at all times. Living creatures are not totally predictable or immune to bad luck, however well trained they are.

[mum24dog]

This was at a dog park, and my dog (a foster) was going the rounds to greet everyone.

 

 

Please do read this before your dogs get into real trouble -

 

http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/he-just-wants-say-hi

 

I totally agree with those who have pointed out that dogs that are allowed to approach others without permission are not under control. If you cannot call the dog off then it should not be off lead. If you can call it off then you should do so while you establish whether it is OK for it to approach another.

 

Our dogs are taught not to approach others unless told it's OK. We mostly meet dogs that have been taught the same but just lately our collie (that doesn't like his space invaded by strange dogs) has been subjected to the attentions of various dogs whose owners thought it was fine to let theirs be so rude - dogs ranging in size from a greyhound to a couple of dachshunds. He behaved with considerable restraint which has taken years to achieve and I don't want it ruined by unthinking owners.

[Shetlander]

I have never been to a dog park, so don't know the protocol. I thought the dogs interacted pretty freely (one of the reasons I have no interest in dog parks). Not so?

[Eileen Stein]

D'Elle, I'm glad you didn't mean what I understood you to mean. I have heard many of those who espouse behavioral theory say that there is no more to any relationship than behavior conditioned by rewards and punishments. I consider that to be a reductionist and misguided belief, and I'm glad to hear you don't share it.

 

I didn't smile over the commenter's naivete, but rather the idea that because I use treats and toys for training, I then somehow don't have a mutual regard with my dogs.

 

Shetlander, the commenter wrote, "From now on, my dog will work for me because of our mutual bond, not because I have to rely on some external motivator." You responded with, "The mutual bond thing is a fairly common argument against using food rewards and did make me smile."

 

I read the commenter as simply saying that s/he had a bad experience with treat training, and consequently intends not to train with an external motivator like a treat in the future, but instead to rely on their relationship as motivation enough. Regardless of whether the commenter was "doing it wrong" when using treats, what reason could you have for thinking s/he is saying anything about the bond or mutual regard you have with your dogs? I guess I don't see what could "make you smile" except the naiveté of thinking that a mutual bond could be a sufficient motivator for training.

 

I assume you do have a strong bond with your dogs. I doubt the commenter had any interest in denying that. I certainly accept it as true. All I'm saying is that IMO there are ways in which training without treats -- relying on that relationship as the chief motivator in training -- can broaden and deepen that bond.

 

If you train with treats/toys/tugs, your first step has to be to train your dog that if he does what pleases you, he will get that reward. That establishes a training vocabulary of "doing X results in an extraneous reward" (extraneous because liver has no intrinsic relationship to your joint enterprise of training X). What I'm trying to encourage (mostly aimed at newbies) is not making that initial assumption that you are going to have to use an extrinsic reward to train everything. Not introducing that distracting vocabulary. Try training without it to begin with. See if you can accomplish what you want through mutually enhancing your communication along with intrinsic rewards. If you give it a good try and can't achieve what you want, fine. Go to treats. But don't assume that because your shitzapoos couldn't learn that way to your satisfaction your border collie can't either, or because your previous border collie couldn't learn that way your present one can't either, or because "everybody knows now" that treat-training is the way to go, it necessarily is.

 

If you think not only that you have a deep bond with your dogs, but that it's the deepest bond there could ever be -- that there's no way that bond could ever be deeper -- then you'll reject my suggestion. Whether you're right or wrong, that's fine with me.

 

As far as off-lead walking goes, I think most dog people recognize that ideally it's nicer for the dog to be able to be off-lead. Most urban and suburban dog-centered people, for example, will look for places they consider safe to let their dog be off-lead sometimes. The degree of safety depends on the degree of control you have over the dog, which in turn depends on training. If you do have optimal control of your dog off-lead, there are very few places where you would get into trouble walking your dog off-lead. There are leash laws in my county, for example, but nobody has ever objected to my walking dogs off-lead so long as I keep them close to me and can reliably call them back to me as needed. (And clean up after them, of course.) You can't proof off-lead control in an urban/suburban setting, and therefore you can't know whether you have it or not, unless you practice it in a situation like that, and it's something I want to have, so I have practiced it. I have heard Jack Knox say that when traveling he lets his dogs out on a strip by the side of the interstate, all of them off-lead, without fear for their welfare because their training is so thorough. He has driven a heck of a lot of miles on the interstates with a heck of a lot of dogs, without mishap, but he is an exceptional trainer, far better than I am, and I would not dream of taking that risk. But I admire his ability to train to that level. And I admire the trainer of the golden retriever you mentioned (who I presume is still living).

 

[D'Elle]

Pretty interesting discussion, here.

 

One thing I have been thinking about while reading this thread is a dog I know who was clicker trained from the age of 6 weeks, and is a very good Freestyle dog. I like the dog and admire the owner's training ability. But there's something that has always bothered me, and that is that the dog has the habit of approaching the owner or other people and throwing a series of freestyle moves and behaviors out there, hoping to get food.

 

Now, of course, with clicker training the idea is that the behavior is not actually rewarded unless the cue has first been given. So the dog is not rewarded for offering behaviors (at least, not by the owner). But the dog at age 8 continues to offer just in case.

 

something about that always has bothered me. I don't think a dog would do that in order to get praise or petting, since most well loved dogs can get that with just a look or a lean.

 

On the other hand, Freestyle moves are not exactly things that come naturally to the dog, which is one reason people give for training them with treats. OTOH, all the tricks I taught my childhood dog were not natural either and I did not use food to train.

 

Makes me want to try training Digger in a few moves or tricks without using food and just see what happens............

[Root Beer]

As for off-lead control: If you train on leash - with or without treats, with or without an ecollar, that leash will always be your default. The notion the leash is omnipresent because leash trainers are exceptionally law abiding is silly, that it is necessary because of car danger proves my point. If, without a leash, your dog can't be prevented from dashing into traffic you do not have off lead control.

 

Count the number of offlead dogs you see in the parking lot or on the grounds at the favored motel for the next obedience or agility test/trial/training conference.

 

Tell you what - next time I am at the Agility trial I attend on private property where we are allowed to exercise our dogs off leash if under control (since it is private property and the owner of the property can, and does, grant this permission), I will count the number that I see (including my own) and report back.

 

In the meantime, take a gander at these . . .

 

Food Trained Dog running off leash on a hiking path (area not fenced):

 

 

This one shows the expanse of the area a little better (although this is only a tiny view). No leash. He neither ran away never to be seen again, nor did he plunge headlong into that bank in front of him. Actual off leash control! Food trained.

 

Oh, and I had no food on me during these hikes, BTW. I don't carry food when I hike unless it's a snack for me.

 

 

What's this? An off leash dog in a state park? Yeah, I'll admit it, when nobody's around I will risk the fine.

 

Again no food on me. The dog is, at the moment, lying under the futon I am sitting on as I type this, so apparently, lack of leash didn't result in him running away never to be seen again.

 

 

Ah yes, me being bad again. Another state park. He was way up the path toward the top of the photo and he did something that is apparently incredible remarkable for a food trained dog. He came running the instant he was called! Wish I had a video of it. Maybe this spring I'll take him out to this same path and take that video.

 

Oh, and I didn't call "cookie". I wasn't waving a hot dog in the air. Didn't even have a hot dog on me - or anything edible. Probably didn't even have a hot dog in the fridge at home . . .

 

 

I do this on a regular basis.

 

Yes, I do use leashes to comply with the law most of the time. But if I choose not to, well, see the pictures above.

 

It really can be done.

[mum24dog]

I have never been to a dog park, so don't know the protocol. I thought the dogs interacted pretty freely (one of the reasons I have no interest in dog parks). Not so?

 

 

No idea - we don't have dog parks, but if that is the case I can understand why there are so many complaints about them.

 

The nearest thing I get to a dog park is the exercise area at an agility show where you could get upwards of a hundred dogs off lead and generally only the very young or very old (or the odd badly trained dog) will bother with other groups.

 

But of course those dogs are trained and (dare I say it?) have a bond with their owners that is stronger than any inclination they may have to interact with other dogs.

[Root Beer]

Oh - one more!! Two of my dogs off leash on the grounds of an Agility trial. See the Agility building up in the background. This is the one on private property. There are acres of open fields (not fenced) that we walk . . . off leash.

 

See - no leashes. Oooooh . . . and way up in the back - just to the left of the camper - you can see another participant exercising a dog off leash. Yes, this really happens on the rare occasions when it is permitted by law. Trials on private property rock!!

 

[Shetlander]

Try training without it to begin with. See if you can accomplish what you want through mutually enhancing your communication along with intrinsic rewards. If you give it a good try and can't achieve what you want, fine. Go to treats. But don't assume that because your shitzapoos couldn't learn that way to your satisfaction your border collie can't either, or because your previous border collie couldn't learn that way your present one can't either, or because "everybody knows now" that treat-training is the way to go, it necessarily is.

 

I don't believe I said that treat training was the only way to go. I didn't say and tried to explain alleged naivete had nothing to do with my smile over the comment. I think I said repeatedly that there are many roads to a well trained dog and you should do what works for you. Again, I have trained with a variety of methods over the years from the harsh class 30 years ago to traditional praise only, calm corrections for many years to clicker and reward based for a little over 10 years. I am not a purist. I use some corrections, though I wish I used fewer. I don't see rapport and treats as an either/or proposition.

 

I train the dog in front of me, be it Lhasa or Border Collie. I don't confuse them. I am confident the Border Collie would learn fine with traditional methods. My first Lhasa learned fine with traditional methods. The current one would not, in my estimation. I choose to use a largely rewards based approach nowadays because, as I have said, it works best for me and for my dogs.

 

Quinn is off lead pretty much only at the beach, where I could be fined for giving him that freedom. Otherwise, he is leashed off our property. I haven't see the Golden in a long time so I don't know how that all worked out. I am one of those people who notices dogs more than humans so if I ever see the owner sans dog, I wouldn't know.

[Laurelin]

Dog parks depend on the style of park. The one here is a fenced in area and people just let their dogs run wild.  I've been twice and both times saw fights there. The second one was ended up with people wheelbarrowing a pit bull off a mastiff's face/ear and the mastiff losing a chunk of his ear. I would never go back.

 

I take my dogs off leash every day and they walk off leash very well. That said, it's technically illegal so we leash up when we see people just to play it safer (with the fine). I have no doubt my dogs COULD walk the park off leash without incident even when it's crowded because they have zero interest in other dogs and know they're supposed to stick with me. But we can't so our off leash time is either in empty areas or at our place, which is 40 acres but is a drive out of the way.

 

 

It is good to know that NADAC doesn't allow dogs off leash. We've done USDAA and dogs are frequently off leash especially in the fields nearby. My dogs are off leash all the time even in the front yard, which is where we practice agility. Actually this is the first place I've lived in over 8 years that has a fenced in back yard. I've never had any worry that the dogs would leave the unfenced back yard either. I wouldn't let them off leash in a parking lot just because I've seen the way people drive in parking lots.

[mum24dog]

.

 

Count the number of offlead dogs you see in the parking lot or on the grounds at the favored motel for the next obedience or agility test/trial/training conference.

 

Donald McCaig

 

 

Why would anyone risk the safety of their dog just to prove a point?

 

Dogs don't tend to just run off but cars often do speed around such areas with no regard to who or what they might hit.

 

And I don't know about where you travel but hotels here prefer their canine guests, if they allow them, to be obviously under control. People ignoring social conventions that they don't consider apply to them could result in the hotel not accepting dogs in the future. And of course not all hotel guests like dogs and those who don't will prefer the reassurance of the presence of a lead, whether strictly needed or not.

 

Hotel owners and guests also don't like to see multiple dogs off lead because of the increased risk of missed poos.

 

Having said that, I have had a dog that would not pee or poo on lead. If staying in a hotel I had to let him off in a suitably safe place and it didn't overly concern me because he was the only one I needed to keep an eye on to clear up after him and there was no way he was going anywhere without me.

[mum24dog]

 

It is good to know that NADAC doesn't allow dogs off leash.

 

 

May I ask why you think that?

[Diana A]

Please do read this before your dogs get into real trouble -

 

http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/he-just-wants-say-hi

 

I totally agree with those who have pointed out that dogs that are allowed to approach others without permission are not under control. If you cannot call the dog off then it should not be off lead. If you can call it off then you should do so while you establish whether it is OK for it to approach another.

 

Our dogs are taught not to approach others unless told it's OK. We mostly meet dogs that have been taught the same but just lately our collie (that doesn't like his space invaded by strange dogs) has been subjected to the attentions of various dogs whose owners thought it was fine to let theirs be so rude - dogs ranging in size from a greyhound to a couple of dachshunds. He behaved with considerable restraint which has taken years to achieve and I don't want it ruined by unthinking owners.

 

And this is one of the reasons I rarely go to dog parks. I get annoyed at people assuming if you brought your dog to a dog park, of course you want your dog to socialize with every other dog there and therefore it's okay for their unmannered dog to run up to yours. The only times I've ever gone to dogparks I've tried to do it at times when few other people would be there, because I have absolutely no interest in the social aspect and neither do most of my dogs. The Belgians enjoy a playmate now and then, but the border collies are pretty much all about me and aren't even interested in playing with each other. One of them will get pretty snarky if some lab-type dog keeps trying to instigate an interaction, and then of course my dog is the 'bad' dog for saying 'buzz off sucker' no matter how appropriate she is. The others just try to avoid the interaction and I can see them getting stressed when the other dog just won't quit bothering them, and then I have to be the bad guy and ask the other owner to call their dog (if they're even in sight) which forces me into a social interaction I didn't want - or if no owner is in sight then I have to threaten that dog to get it to leave (which worries my dogs too, and kind of worries me if it's some shepherd or pit bull type). There is no way to win and it just takes one stupid owner to ruin it. I just wanted the space for my dogs to run freely instead of being on leash or even off leash but having to stay within a couple feet of me. I used to live in an apartment (before my first border collie) and now I have a small yard and crappy neighbors with dogs that fence run and bark, so the yard is mostly for potty duty and a bit of wandering around, not real exercise. They get a lot of exercise with training and walks, but nothing beats a nice relaxed off leash walk where they can roam freely around me and not be restricted to my pace and my exact path. They can run ahead, run back, loop around behind me, sniff things, range to the side, cross back and forth in front of me, etc. If I did that on a typical neighborhood sidewalk they'd be in the street half the time, and if I'm going to make them walk right next to me on a narrow sidewalk, then they might as well just have a leash on anyway. I'd trust them to stick with me off leash, but given the fact that anything more than four feet away puts them into a road, there just doesn't seem to be a benefit to ignore the local leash laws and risk getting into trouble for it.

[Laurelin]

May I ask why you think that?

 

Someone else mentioned it earlier, didn't they? I may be making things up.

 

I just wouldn't want to get DQ'd for letting my dogs off leash like I do at USDAA.

[JohnLloydJones]

Please do read this before your dogs get into real trouble -

 

http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/he-just-wants-say-hi

Oh yes, I have read that before and the dog in question had her issues, but in the incident I related, she really just wanted to say hi. Note that this was in an off-leash dog park and dogs do just want to go up and greet everyone.

[Eileen Stein]

Shetlander, the following portion of my post, which you quote, was addressed generally -- "mostly aimed at newbies," as I said. Just to be clear, it was not directed to you.

 

Try training without it to begin with. See if you can accomplish what you want through mutually enhancing your communication along with intrinsic rewards. If you give it a good try and can't achieve what you want, fine. Go to treats. But don't assume that because your shitzapoos couldn't learn that way to your satisfaction your border collie can't either, or because your previous border collie couldn't learn that way your present one can't either, or because "everybody knows now" that treat-training is the way to go, it necessarily is.

[mum24dog]

Someone else mentioned it earlier, didn't they? I may be making things up.

 

I just wouldn't want to get DQ'd for letting my dogs off leash like I do at USDAA.

 

 

I read your reply as meaning that you think it a good thing that dogs aren't allowed off lead at NADAC competitions.

 

I think you just meant that it's good to know that NADAC don't permit it so you are forewarned?

[Laurelin]

I read your reply as meaning that you think it a good thing that dogs aren't allowed off lead at NADAC competitions.

 

I think you just meant that it's good to know that NADAC don't permit it so you are forewarned?

 

Yes exactly. Sorry for the confusion.

[mum24dog]

Oh yes, I have read that before and the dog in question had her issues, but in the incident I related, she really just wanted to say hi. Note that this was in an off-leash dog park and dogs do just want to go up and greet everyone.

 

 

Your dog may have wanted to say "Hi" but clearly you meet dogs that don't. That is what the article is about - not your dog, everyone else's that you don't know.

 

No use complaining if someone else's dog objects and your dog comes off worst.

[JohnLloydJones]

No use complaining if someone else's dog objects and your dog comes off worst.

Well, I wasn't complaining, for the first. However, if you bring a dog to an off-leash dog park, the expectation is that they will socialize and if your dog can't or won't then you and your dog are in the wrong place.

[mum24dog]

Oh - one more!! Two of my dogs off leash on the grounds of an Agility trial. See the Agility building up in the background. This is the one on private property. There are acres of open fields (not fenced) that we walk . . . off leash.

 

See - no leashes. Oooooh . . . and way up in the back - just to the left of the camper - you can see another participant exercising a dog off leash. Yes, this really happens on the rare occasions when it is permitted by law. Trials on private property rock!!

 

 

 

 

Take that picture and fill it with off lead dogs and it would be similar to the minimum sort of exercise area we expect in the UK.

 

But how can that be because none of them can be trusted to behave off lead, can they?

[mum24dog]

Well, I wasn't complaining, for the first. However, if you bring a dog to an off-leash dog park, the expectation is that they will socialize and if your dog can't or won't then you and your dog are in the wrong place.

 

 

But you were complaining about the little dog who bit yours.

 

And if you can't keep your own dog from approaching others without permission I would suggest that you are in the wrong place.

 

When my dogs are off lead anywhere amongst others I have no expectation that they should be forced to interact if they don't want to.

[JohnLloydJones]

But you were complaining about the little dog who bit yours.

 

And if you can't keep your own dog from approaching others without permission I would suggest that you are in the wrong place.

Go back and read what I wrote. I used the incident as an example, not a complaint.

 

The whole point of a dog park is to allow a dog to socialize with others. If everyone had to keep their dogs from interacting without permission, then the whole exercise of going to the park would be futile.

[Diana A]

Oh yes, I have read that before and the dog in question had her issues, but in the incident I related, she really just wanted to say hi. Note that this was in an off-leash dog park and dogs do just want to go up and greet everyone.

 

And this is only okay if your dog can take a hint when the other dog isn't interested and leave them alone. A polite dog would 'greet' from a few feet away and the response of the other dog would indicate if that other dog wished to interact or wasn't interested, was afraid, etc. Many dogs take offense at a strange dog just barreling up into their space. I really would have no problem at dog parks if a dog approached mine, mine said 'not interested' and the other dog left. Other dogs may not be like mine however and most dog park dogs I've run across just cannot take a hint.