Training treats considered as detrimental

[Laurelin]

Well of course you can use treats wrong. How many times do you see people trying to beg with treats and waving them in dogs' faces to get them to do what you want? Or how many times do you see people reward at the completely wrong point and then you end up with some issue in your behavior chain. I actually did this with my first go at weave training by rewarding the dog myself vs throwing a toy/food. That's a great way to get a dog to pop out of the weaves.

 

So in that way, yes, treats could be used wrong. But is it detrimental to your relationship with the dog? Meh... probably not really.

 

But what I'm gathering is that a lot of people here and in some other arenas seem to think that treat training = no punishments and also no 'real' or 'meaningful' relationship with the dog. Which I think couldn't be further from the truth.

 

As far as the comment about agility training for competition being purely for the owner, I would recommend going to a trial or watching some training. The dogs love it. There can be bumps in the road but almost everyone I have encountered is in it for the dogs. Sure I've seen the few that seem to take a game way too seriously but the majority are just people who love playing with their dogs. And their dogs love playing with them too.

[mum24dog]

Oh, well I didn't mean to surprise anyone, but lest you think I'm making this up, I can amend my statement to say that this was my own experience (but I probably won't). Winifred Strickland and Blanche Saunders, both of whom had a significant impact on me and others, were my resources back then (in addition to classes). Here is a quotation I found from doing a quick web search, illustrating that I am not the only one who had that sort of experience.

 

"I started taking dog training seriously -- back in the dark ages of the 1960's - when people like William Koehler and Winifred Strickland were considered experts in the field. Using food to train dogs back then was almost unheard of.

The argument was "If you train with food, at some point you're going to have to stop and then what will you do?" (Frawley, Using Treats in Your Dog Training. Web. http://leerburg.com/usingtreats.htm)

 

 

I didn't think you were making it up, I was just surprised how different things were for you.

 

Maybe my experience was tempered by the fact that the classes were run by two elderly unmarried sisters as different as chalk and cheese - one large and rather masculine with a GSD and the other rather more ladylike with a pap. The GSD one taught me but obviously she couldn't use the same level of rough tactics people did and still do on a GSD as her sister.

 

Plenty of collar jerks though which resulted in my dog hating to go for walks, food or no.

[mum24dog]

Rewards are rewards whatever form they take.

 

If your situation is one where life rewards, including working stock, are readily available then that's what the dog gets. If it doesn't do as the handler wants it doesn't get rewarded by being able to work.

 

If your situation is such that it is easy to take your dog anywhere you go with a considerable amount of freedom then going interesting places will be a reward for the dog. If it plays up it doesn't get to go. I'd love to be able to open the door, call the dogs and set off with them following me but I can't where I live.

 

If going out with you means a chance to hunt for a dog that way inclined, again, that is a huge reward, but I can't let my dogs kill the neighbourhood cats or run through fields of sheep after a rabbit.

 

None of those scenarios are likely to be treat dependent.

 

Unfortunately most people aren't so lucky and live in situations where delivering that type of reward is very difficult, especially on a routine basis, so alternatives have to be found.

 

They are all rewards nonetheless.

 

Some people think it justifiable to hurt dogs either physically or emotionally in the name of training, many don't. Many of the first type use treats too. The use of treats does not identify a positive based trainer in itself nor the lack of treats a trainer who uses punishment.

 

Experienced people who use treats in training are likely to have experience of training with life rewards too. Those who train without treats are often ready to condemn methods they haven't used themselves, or have only used minimally, basing their opinion that they don't work reliably on having observed people using them badly.

 

I'm sure many dogs in the right circumstances can be trained to a level that will satisfy their owner without the use of treats and without necessarily using punishment. Equally I know that many dogs will respond far better if treats or toys (or whatever floats their boat) are used as a reward correctly.

 

Any reward can be used badly and be detrimental in the wrong hands.

[mum24dog]

How about silent dog whistles? When was the last time you saw one of those?

 

How would you know one was being used if you can't hear it?

 

"Silent" whistles are only silent to us.

 

Almost every day I meet a woman with 5 Pointers all trained very well to a whistle., as are many gun dogs. She does carry a ball as well.

 

I also meet a woman with a Gordon Setter very badly trained to the whistle. Peep, peep, peep and her dog ignores it, returning when he pleases. I haven't seen her offer any reward when he does come back so why would he?

[JohnLloydJones]

How would you know one was being used if you can't hear it?

 

"Silent" whistles are only silent to us.

I was with at a small accession last year where a woman was using a "silent" whistle to signal to her dog (border collie) Senneca reacted by cringing and running away.

[ Admission: I have a sheep dog who hates whistles of all kinds, including a classic sheep dog whistle. ]

[mum24dog]

As far as the comment about agility training for competition being purely for the owner, I would recommend going to a trial or watching some training. The dogs love it. There can be bumps in the road but almost everyone I have encountered is in it for the dogs. Sure I've seen the few that seem to take a game way too seriously but the majority are just people who love playing with their dogs. And their dogs love playing with them too.

 

 

This, although there are undoubtedly some dogs that would rather not do it, just as there are dogs that would rather not work stock.

 

I do find that the dogs that enjoy it most are those whose handlers are interested in doing it to the best of their ability. Those with handlers who are half hearted about training and see it as no more than a dog negotiating different obstacles do pick up on the lack of commitment.

 

To see a dog and handler partnership in perfect tune is a beautiful thing, whatever the activity.

[Smalahundur]

I was with at a small accession last year where a woman was using a "silent" whistle to signal to her dog (border collie) Senneca reacted by cringing and running away.

[ Admission: I have a sheep dog who hates whistles of all kinds, including a classic sheep dog whistle. ]

I would regard that as rather unpractical...What do you do to command your dog over longer distances, loud screaming?

[mum24dog]

I was with at a small accession last year where a woman was using a "silent" whistle to signal to her dog (border collie) Senneca reacted by cringing and running away.

[ Admission: I have a sheep dog who hates whistles of all kinds, including a classic sheep dog whistle. ]

 

 

My hound x used to panic at the sound of a whistle but I have classically conditioned his response to them using treats so that now when he hears one he looks to me instead of bolting. I have done the same with his fear of bangs and his reaction to horses that used to terrify him.

[Root Beer]

I would regard that as rather unpractical...What do you do to command your dog over longer distances, loud screaming?

 

If the dog can hear the tone of the whistle from a short distance, the dog could hear it at a longer distance as well, exactly the same as a whistle that a human can hear, too. The fact that it is silent to us doesn't mean its "quiet" to the dog and so could only be heard at short range.

[Smalahundur]

If the dog can hear the tone of the whistle from a short distance, the dog could hear it at a longer distance as well, exactly the same as a whistle that a human can hear, too. The fact that it is silent to us doesn't mean its "quiet" to the dog and so could only be heard at short range.

You did not understand my question/remark.

It was directed at JohnLloydJones, and was about his/her dog that hates whistles of all kinds. I know how "silent" whistles work.

[JohnLloydJones]

I would regard that as rather unpractical...What do you do to command your dog over longer distances, loud screaming?

Well, we don't work livestock (apologies for my referring to her as a "sheep dog"; that's what we call them back home, working or no). She does respond to hand signals, but you are right. Both hand signals and "loud screaming" cease to work very quickly with distance.

[mum24dog]

Well, we don't work livestock (apologies for my referring to her as a "sheep dog"; that's what we call them back home, working or no). She does respond to hand signals, but you are right. Both hand signals and "loud screaming" cease to work very quickly with distance.

 

 

A friend tells the story of a Working Trials handler whose dog was responding to his quiet commands in driving rain and wind at a great distance. When asked how he did that he said "Because he's bl***y listening."

 

The moral would seem to be that if you want your dog to listen to you, drop the volume rather than increase it.

[Smalahundur]

Well, I know someone who does work livestock, and he never got the hang of using sheepdog whistles, can´t use the shepherd´s whistle, can´t finger whistle either.

So he screams his commands of the top of his lungs which especially sounds funny when he uses the "steady" command as in Icelandic we use a word that translates as "relax" . Believe me, If her roars that command it sounds anything but relaxing .

 

Edit, sounds like he should read your post Mom24dog....

[JohnLloydJones]

A friend tells the story of a Working Trials handler whose dog was responding to his quiet commands in driving rain and wind at a great distance. When asked how he did that he said "Because he's bl***y listening."

 

The moral would seem to be that if you want your dog to listen to you, drop the volume rather than increase it.

Yes, yes. Distance improves with time as dogs need to "tune in" to the sound of your voice, but once they do it's amazing how far they can take a command.

[G. Festerling]

No question collars are part of dogs. Talking flat collars here. How many of you have trained heeling, recall and downs totally without one? Curious here.

[Maralynn]

FWIW, I never said that the OP said treats were detrimental, I was simply comparing the idea that they might be (raised in the OP and the title of the thread) with the idea that one didn't need to use them in training.

[Freeman 101]

G. Festerling. Collars are not part of my training when teaching heel, recalls, or downs. I start puppies off by capturing downs and then adding the name to the behavior, so this doesn't require the use of any sort of collar. I think this hands off training has allowed me to easily add distance to downs, and to teach down in motion. Recalls, again, collar not required. I begin "Come" indoors, so a collar is not a necessary part of this. Once I take it outdoors I may then add a collar and long line, but I did not do this with the 2 dogs I currently have, and they both have stellar off leash recalls. I also don't think a collar is required to teach heeling. It's very possible to start heel training off leash (without the use of a collar). Im not adverse to the use of buckle collars in training, but for me personally, I don't want the manipulation of the collar to become part of the dog's cue to respond to the behavior.

[Gideon's girl]

I also don't use collars to teach recalls and downs. I find it necessary to use a collar for teaching heel because I like to proof it out in public and we have leash laws, but I don't really think that makes it part of teaching heel, though it is part of teaching loose leash walking, just by definition.

[Maralynn]

Another interesting observation - I "trained" Missy through telling and showing her what to do. It worked incredibly well. Later on, when I started using a clicker with Kipp, Miss would be over in the corner of the room doing everything I was training Kipp to do. Learning through observation. I started doing a bit of clicker work (with food rewards) with Missy. Not because she needed it to learn, but because she LOVED it. She was still happy just doing stuff for the sake of doing it but her exuberance and "yay! I'm getting it right!" attitude I saw from her reached a whole new level.

[terrecar]

Since I see this going the way of the false dichotomy, i.e. "if you do not train with treats then you must be training with inhumane methods" kind of thing, I just want to point out that I did not use a choke collar on a Whippet, and I did not have to 'yank and crank' him to get him to heel. That would have ruined him.

 

I know this is a Border Collie forum, but I think it is pertinent to point out that there is a false dichotomy here (although Eileen alluded to it using greater facility with language than I can).

[alligande]

No question collars are part of dogs. Talking flat collars here. How many of you have trained heeling, recall and downs totally without one? Curious here.

No collar for the down and recall, the down was trained basically by luring and then continually proofed as a solid down is needed for agility and I regard it as an essential life skill for safety reasons. Recall was done through games, like Gideon Girl first in the house and then outside, this is another of those skills that was taught using treats and then translated into being rewarded by life, I proof his recal every walk it's just a fun game to him.

I don't train a heel I really have had no need for it, as long as the dog walks nicely on a leash I am not fussed where they are and realistically my dogs spend little time on a leash. I have been training an off leash "walk close" as with our up coming move to Europe in envision taking him many more places where a well behaved dog can be off leash but well under control and that I have been doing without treats just asking and then releasing to play, as I never remember to take treats on walks.

[JohnLloydJones]

No question collars are part of dogs. Talking flat collars here. How many of you have trained heeling, recall and downs totally without one? Curious here.

Well, my dogs wear one constantly, but the collar normally plays no part in training. My top priorities are recall and the boundary command, wait. Downs and stay come next. Frankly, I don't much bother about heeling -- as long as they follow me and don't get themselves lost or into trouble, I'm fine. They're on leash for our morning walk (for safety as well as the local leash law), but I try to work off leash as much as possible the rest of the time.

[Root Beer]

No question collars are part of dogs. Talking flat collars here. How many of you have trained heeling, recall and downs totally without one? Curious here.

 

I train all of those things without collars of any kind. Most of the time my dogs don't wear collars, so the vast majority of my training happens on collarless dogs.

 

When they do happen to have a collar on, it's only purpose is to hold identification, be attached to a loose leash where a leash is required by law or rule, or simply to look pretty. And I do love pretty collars.

[mum24dog]

No question collars are part of dogs. Talking flat collars here. How many of you have trained heeling, recall and downs totally without one? Curious here.

 

 

Without using a collar as part of the training process - me too.

 

It works just as well for competition obedience heelwork as it does for general walking close and under control.

 

I wonder how many people who think you don't "need" treats to train a dog also think that you can't train one to do the basics without a collar and lead. (Not aimed at anyone in particular, just "no treaters" in general.)

 

I view a collar and lead as a training crutch every bit as much as others may view the use of treats.

[terrecar]

Of course I'm not a "no treater" as evidenced by my posts (if you read beyond the first line), but I'll weigh in on this. I don't think a collar and lead are necessary to train come, sit, down, or stay, even without treats, but I get better results with them positive reinforcement [ETA: Better, as in quicker, more precise]. I also agree that a collar is as much a crutch--if that is how one is communicating with the dog--as are treats.

 

[ETA: I edited my post to fix the horrid grammar, since what I meant was that I get better results with treats or other positive reinforcement.

 

I wonder how many people who think you don't "need" treats to train a dog also think that you can't train one to do the basics without a collar and lead. (Not aimed at anyone in particular, just "no treaters" in general.)

 

I view a collar and lead as a training crutch every bit as much as others may view the use of treats.

Edited December 22, 2013 by terrecar