Training treats considered as detrimental

[geonni banner]

Have you trained many lurchers? The most intelligent, problem solving dogs in general, but also independently minded.

 

Two things motivate most of them - chasing and food. Most of us are trying to stop them chasing so the incentive to stop has to be strong.

Only one. She was a quick study in everything but "sit." She hated sitting. I finally figured out that the classic straight sit was physically uncomfortable for her. After that, sits became short duration and infrequent. If I needed her stationary I would put her in a down.

 

She was trustworthy off leash, and had a slingshot recall. I sometimes used training treats with her when she was a pup, but soon phased them out.

 

Maybe I got lucky and she inherited her Border Collie parent's biddability.

 

[mum24dog]

Food will still be involved, as I will mark/reinforce through the targeting process, but I plan to not use it as a lure to get initial behavior at all, if possible. I want to see what is different, what is better, what falls short, if true food lures are omitted altogether in favor of targets.

 

 

Superficially targeting and luring look similar but of course luring is using a primary reward for the dog to follow whereas targeting is a specific behaviour using something that has no intrinsic value to the dog.

 

I think targeting is far superior since not only does it not risk distracting a really foodie dog from the task in hand, it is also more flexible in that it can be used in so many different ways and at a distance.

[TEC]

...Exactly how did you get 12 weave poles fluent, at a distance, top speed reliability, regardless of entry angle, with just hand clapping?

 

I am very, very interested in this!! Especially in how you faded the clapping, but maintained both precision and drive, particularly in competition situations.

I PM'd with a lengthy response that is probably a little OT for this thread. It's my humble technique that was cobbled together from reading, watching and my own instincts. I see from your subsequent post that we are on much the same page about targeting. Like you, I am not against luring with food, but it became apparent that when working on an agility course my dog had no interest in eating. It is all about targets, shaping, toys and praise for us. -- Best wishes, TEC

[mum24dog]

Only one. She was a quick study in everything but "sit." She hated sitting. I finally figured out that the classic straight sit was physically uncomfortable for her. After that, sits became short duration and infrequent. If I needed her stationary I would put her in a down.

 

She was trustworthy off leash, and had a slingshot recall. I sometimes used training treats with her when she was a pup, but soon phased them out.

 

Maybe I got lucky and she inherited her Border Collie parent's biddability.

 

Happiness is a Tennis Ball 5.jpg

 

 

That's cheating - having one that's half BC. I don't actually see many of that mix.

[geonni banner]

That's cheating - having one that's half BC. I don't actually see many of that mix.

Uh, it was my understanding that Greyhound/ Border Collie was the most common parentage for a Lurcher. What are the ones you know?

[Shetlander]

I go by the dogs in front of me and so far they have all been pigs, apparently, who love to learn and “work” for treats. Even my last picky eater, who was 5 dogs ago, went bonkers for the right treats. They all seem to learn quickly and happily with treats and other rewards so I personally have no reason to change my approach.

 

Quinn has always been more enthusiastic about toys than food, but that is on a scale and his enthusiasm starts pretty darn high. Nothing beats sheep. After sheep, the Lake and toys rule. When I was training him in agility, I used toys where I wanted speed (jumps, tunnels and weaves) and treats when training for contact performance, though toys entered the picture later to work on encouraging control in higher level excitement. For manners and tricks, I tend to use treats but sometimes use toys.

 

My Lhasa and Shelties always strongly preferred treats to toys and I have always used what created the greatest enthusiasm. The other day, my 11 year old Lhasa in his enthusiasm for getting the cookie I always give when I leave for work, misjudged his ability to still do Jack Russell vertical leaps into the air, lost his balance and crashed down onto his side like a thrown sack of potatoes. I was horrified but as I asked him if he was ok, he got to his feet, jumping a bit more carefully, obviously saying “Forget about that. GIVEMETHECOOKIE!!!”

 

I am a big fan of clicker training, usually using a verbal marker rather than a clicker. I am also a big fan of luring the first few times I am training something new, quickly fading the lure, rather than shaping from scratch. This works well for my dogs and my needs.

 

Long way of saying, no, I personally don’t find treats detrimental and in fact find them very helpful training the various skills I want in my dogs. I am careful to monitor their weight and often use the dog’s kibble or meals as treats. I think all my dogs have been “above average” in intelligence. I have yet to have any of my dogs be disdainful about a proffered treat. I would probably rush any of my three, including the toy mad Quinn, to the vet if that ever happened.

[Tea]

I think for my dogs in their work, moving livestock.

 

the reward is freedom

[Shetlander]

I think for my dogs in their work, moving livestock.

 

the reward is freedom

Yes, when Quinn was at sheep lessons, all he wanted was to work sheep. But those days are long gone and as a dog living in a subdivision, he finds toys and treats rewarding and motivating.

[sandysfarm]

 

 

 

 

This made me smile a little. Sighthounds get the same charge (pun) out of chasing things down as collies get from truly working; they're both hard-wired for it. If your lurcher had a snappy recall, I promise it was mostly the collie part of his brain responding. Once a sighthound (I come from greyhounds) fixates and receives the adrenalin dump, he's gone till he's dead or done. You can train recall till your eyes roll back in your head but you're never going to trump the primal thrill of the chase.

[mum24dog]

Uh, it was my understanding that Greyhound/ Border Collie was the most common parentage for a Lurcher. What are the ones you know?

 

I'm not saying that most of the ones I see don't have some BC in them because it's impossible to tell visually and there are so many of unknown parentage in rescue but obvious half and half mixes I am most likely to see in agility.

 

If you check out Hancock lurchers you will see the sorts of percentages you get in the breeding. Some people say they are good workers and they do seem to have a good reputation, some point to the fact that the breeders don't work their dogs. I note the frequency of merles. They don't say on their web site why that cross.

 

Long dogs (sighthound on both sides), bedlington/whippets, bull lurchers, bearded collie crosses are fairly common round here but any could have a dash of BC.

[mum24dog]

This made me smile a little. Sighthounds get the same charge (pun) out of chasing things down as collies get from truly working; they're both hard-wired for it. If your lurcher had a snappy recall, I promise it was mostly the collie part of his brain responding. Once a sighthound (I come from greyhounds) fixates and receives the adrenalin dump, he's gone till he's dead or done. You can train recall till your eyes roll back in your head but you're never going to trump the primal thrill of the chase.

 

This.

 

Your only hope is to be on the ball and recognise the first glimmerings of interest so you can distract the dog before the chase begins. Food is useful. Toys not so much as the only interest the dog will have in them is if they are moving.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Laurelin writes: "I honestly do not understand the venom people have against treats in training." I haven't detected any animus towards those who treat-train Border Collies, though some impatience creeps through. That treats are more or less useful training lurchers isn't terribly pertinent on a Border Collie forum.

 

Several questions are intertwined in this question.Let me suggest some provisional answers.

 

1. Can Border Collies be trained to be mannerly pets without rewards.

 

Satisfaction with your dog in a world that makes sense to him is probably enough reward for most Border Collies.

 

2. Are treats BAD?

 

Some people enjoy giving their dog snacks, some incorporate treats into an all breed training program, some have adopted Skinnerism as training theory. This makes them WICKED? At a mine field in Albania I watched Muslims and Christians hunt unexploded ordinance with their dogs. Our religious convictions don't seem to matter very much to our dogs.

 

3. Are they NECESSARY? I credit proficient practitioners of particular human/dog activities. If the best agility handlers train with treats, far as I'm concerned, in agility, they're necessary. Elsewhere? Dunno.

 

Donald McCaig

[Laurelin]

Personally, I assumed this question was meant to mean treat training dogs in general, not just border collies. I've seen this same thought process in people who own many different breeds- that the dog should just work for joy or working or should work for praise. Treats are seen as bribery.

 

I've personally only owned breeds that are on the highly biddable end of things so I think a lot of what they are I get complacent about. Until I'm around more breeds and I realize that no, not all breeds are keyed into their owners like the handful of breeds I've owned. I've never had an issue teaching a dog of mine to walk nicely off or on leash and be well behaved but I've never owned a sighthound or husky or anything with that sort of temperament. I fostered a scruffy terrier mix once who was a real eye-opener! (terriers and I do not mix)

 

I do caution against saying because a dog is a BC or any other certain breed that _______ method will work always. I've had enough dogs and been around enough to see that dogs are individuals first. I've had dogs far more similar that are of different breeds than they are to ones that are the same breed.

 

I do think a lot of what you consider necessary comes down to what kind of training you do. I don't work stock but it sounds to me like treats would be less than useless there. The other group I see very much against using treats generally tends to be people only interested in a nice pet- which is perfectly fine but a whole other ballgame than training something like agility where you're going for precision, speed, and also a dog that works through a lot of distractions. I don't really think about teaching household manners and things as 'training' as it just generally happens as the dog and I figure out how to coexist and he figures out the rules and boundaries. I think of training more as some sort of behavior that I sit down and actually teach step by step although I guess both are technically training.

[mum24dog]

I don't really think about teaching household manners and things as 'training' as it just generally happens as the dog and I figure out how to coexist and he figures out the rules and boundaries. I think of training more as some sort of behavior that I sit down and actually teach step by step although I guess both are technically training.

 

It depends on the dog but yes, dogs do pick up a lot of acceptable ways to behave that we don't consciously set out to teach them.

[GentleLake]

This made me smile a little. Sighthounds get the same charge (pun) out of chasing things down as collies get from truly working; they're both hard-wired for it. If your lurcher had a snappy recall, I promise it was mostly the collie part of his brain responding. Once a sighthound (I come from greyhounds) fixates and receives the adrenalin dump, he's gone till he's dead or done. You can train recall till your eyes roll back in your head but you're never going to trump the primal thrill of the chase.

 

That's been my (unhappy) experience with my (accidental) lurcher. I thought she was a BC pup or close mix when I adopted her. Then she started growing taaaaall. She may be part BC, though as barky as she is it could be Sheltie. But she's as smart as any BC I've ever known and uses those smarts to try to manipulate me.

 

Her only real motivation for doing anything I ask her is food. If it weren't for food, I don't think I'd ever have managed to teach her anything.

 

As for lurchers and recalls . . . I have a friend who has long haired whippets (technically, I suppose, a lurcher as Sheltie was mixed in to get the long coat). All three of them have lovely recalls. But I don't know much about whippets other than these. Maybe they're not as bad as other sighthounds?

 

As for Tansy, I'd hoped when I adopted her to get back into some herding. Guess we'll be trying lure coursing instead.

[rushdoggie]

My Border Collie, Argos, is not a "foodie." He is, in fact, proabbly the least interested in food dog I have ever owned. When I fix dog meals other dog in my house swirl and dance in happy anticipation, and struggle to hold a stay if I put them on one while I deliver bowls. Argos often has to be woken up for a meal and told to eat his dinner "now please" and he will only eat a few types of food with any kind of enthusiasm. If I offer him tidbits of human food after a meal its pretty common for him to politely take it and then spit it out a few feet away, even meats or mayo (and I never had a dog who turned his nose up at mayo). The only exception is the ice cream bowls.

 

But, interestingly, in the context of "training" he will eat ANYTHING happily including kibbles that he turns his nose up at in his bowl. If theres a clicker, or I use a verbal marker of some kind, or if I use something to lure a body movement (we have been working on stretches and using a balance disk because of his rear leg injuries) he will scarf if down and seem THRILLED with it.

 

I love him, but he is a weird dog.

[Maralynn]

Something not yet brought up in this conversation - All people are not the same in how they reward with treats. Poor timing will cause a treat to be detrimental to training. That doesn't mean the treat is the problem. A much more likely scenario is that the trainer is not skilled in using treats in an effective manner.

[Shetlander]

Something not yet brought up in this conversation - All people are not the same in how they reward with treats. Poor timing will cause a treat to be detrimental to training. That doesn't mean the treat is the problem. A much more likely scenario is that the trainer is not skilled in using treats in an effective manner.

 

Kind of like when someone totally doesn't get the basics of clicker training. I remember trying to explain to a very good traditional trainer that the "click" of the clicker was supposed to mark the behavior he wanted and then be followed with a treat. He insisted that the clicker was rewarding by itself, then eventually decided clicker training didn't work. Certainly his version of clicker training wasn't for his confused dog.

[geonni banner]

This.

 

Your only hope is to be on the ball and recognise the first glimmerings of interest so you can distract the dog before the chase begins. Food is useful. Toys not so much as the only interest the dog will have in them is if they are moving.

Hmmm. Well, as I (and others) have said, I always supposed that my Lurcher inherited her biddability from her Border Collie parent. She got her looks and build from her Greyhound parent. But she would take a recall in mid-flight whether chasing a Frisbee or a cat. She was a good dog that way.

 

I wonder if the whole temperament thing is different for show-bred sighthounds than it is for track-bred or coursing-bred dogs. We have seen the herding ability of Border Collies go down the toilet very quickly when they are bred to show-standards. Wonder if the show-bred Greyhound has the keenness to chase bred out of it - intentionally or otherwise? The show-bred Greyhounds I have seen certainly look different that the track dogs and especially the coursing dogs. The latter look like coiled springs, whereas the show-dogs I've seen were lumbering and blase'.

 

I don't know what the breeding of my Lurcher's dam was. But she was a Greyhound. The rescue that had her and her litter had to destroy her after a year of trying to get her over her terror of humans. I saw her once, but she was curled up at the end of her run, and would not even look round, let alone come say hello. Poor thing.

 

They had her Border Collie sire too. But he responded well to rehabilitation and got a good home.

[terrecar]

My first Whippet had a solid recall to the extent that I could exercise him off lead, and I have to say he was not trained with treats. He was the only dog that I trained for the purpose of obedience trialing, but he never made it, simply because I could never get him to endure the 'stand for exam' requirement. He came to me as an untrained adult and was VERY timid. With lots of time and patience, he became like a new dog--no problem with the heel between two people that is (was?) required--but he would flinch and move (exhibit shyness) when someone tried to do the exam, so I gave up. I think now, in retrospect, that treats and clicker training might have gone a long way toward getting him through that and to competition.

[Tea]

When I first teach a pup to go into her box I use a tiny piece of provolone.

[Smalahundur]

Provolone? I had to google that, thought it sounded like some kind of medication...

Been to Italy quite a few times, but never came across it, the description sounds tasty.

[JohnLloydJones]

Provolone? I had to google that, thought it sounded like some kind of medication...

Been to Italy quite a few times, but never came across it, the description sounds tasty.

It's mild, but quite pleasant. I associate it as a companion to Salami.

[sandysfarm]

Hmmm. Well, as I (and others) have said, I always supposed that my Lurcher inherited her biddability from her Border Collie parent. She got her looks and build from her Greyhound parent. But she would take a recall in mid-flight whether chasing a Frisbee or a cat. She was a good dog that way.

 

I wonder if the whole temperament thing is different for show-bred sighthounds than it is for track-bred or coursing-bred dogs. We have seen the herding ability of Border Collies go down the toilet very quickly when they are bred to show-standards. Wonder if the show-bred Greyhound has the keenness to chase bred out of it - intentionally or otherwise? The show-bred Greyhounds I have seen certainly look different that the track dogs and especially the coursing dogs. The latter look like coiled springs, whereas the show-dogs I've seen were lumbering and blase'.

 

I don't know what the breeding of my Lurcher's dam was. But she was a Greyhound. The rescue that had her and her litter had to destroy her after a year of trying to get her over her terror of humans. I saw her once, but she was curled up at the end of her run, and would not even look round, let alone come say hello. Poor thing.

 

They had her Border Collie sire too. But he responded well to rehabilitation and got a good home.

 

 

 

OMG I'm not going anywhere near this one!! ROFL

It's the same issue. AKC hounds bad, working hounds good.

 

But let's back to border collies as I am in complete awe of the level of training conversation on this forum.

[mum24dog]

 

But let's back to border collies as I am in complete awe of the level of training conversation on this forum.

 

 

I think it's important not to generalise what you may be able to get away with for one breed to others though.

 

Many BCs will work without food rewards therefore treats are not necessary in dog training would be an erroneous conclusion to draw, for example.

 

And often issues that are presented a BC specified are just basic dog issues.