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Newbie here. Needs a bit of help.


sogj
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I think we paid $200 or $250 for our rescue, and that included all the basic shots and a veternary inspection. Furthermore, it turned out that the shelter had a deal with our local vet who's giving us a special "rescue rate" so we're saving 10-15% (don't remember the exact number) every time we see the vet. Add that up, and it's truly a "free" dog.

 

But the joy of knowing that you're providing a loving environment for a dog that probably didn't come from the best of situations is priceless in the true sense of the word!

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All three of mine have been rescues, the first a youngish adult who was a stray from the local shelter who really had no issues, he came as a good house pet, I wasn't into agility or even training tricks so asked nothing more than good manners and a recall.

Next was a 3 1/2 year old who was referral from a local rescue but came straight to us ... our free dog... he had the most issues, all very minor we think he was just born slightly weird, but he was a great companion, and also required very little training to be a good house pet, we tried agility together but it was not his thing.

Our current resident we got as a 4 month old puppy from the same rescue, I think he cost $350 fully vetted. (not including neuter)

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Yeah, money definitely isn't the primary concern at all, if I do end up getting a BC I'm going to be far more concerned with the dog itself than how much it costs, and I've been kind of scared away from rescues in the past because of behavior issues. (The way I grew up, if a dog wasn't working, even just barely, you gave it away...I wasn't a part of "dog people" and so I feel very...out of place. Like I should know things I don't.) Y'all have convinced me to relook at the rescue idea...I actually have a tab open to our local BC rescue right now! LOL

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Maybe you should try the path that we took and do a foster with the option of adopting? (If your rescue org offers that). We basically got 2 weeks (or more if we wanted) to see how the dog would settle into the family. Just as some people on this board warned us, the behavior changed a bit after the "honey-moon", but honestly not that much.

 

The way it worked for us we could have returned the dog to the shelter without adopting her and they would just have thanked us for our services with no strings attached. Honestly, I don't think we would even have considered it if we haven't been given the foster option.

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Hi and welcome!

 

I have skimmed through this thread and have a couple of quick things to share:

 

1. Too much exercise for a BC of any age can be a bad thing. You basically create an exercise monster.

2. Getting a puppy would mean you would not have a biking partner for at least 1 year. Exercising a puppy to that level before their growth plates are closed can do serious damage.

3. TX has many, many, USBCHA sheep dog trials that you could attend. Check out the USBCHA website for dates and locations.

4. Reputable rescues will help you find what you are looking for. You may need to wait a bit for the right dog to come along but well worth the wait. And don't forget rescues do get in puppies as well as "young" dogs under 1 years old.

 

Good luck and kudos to you for doing your research!

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Maybe you should try the path that we took and do a foster with the option of adopting? (If your rescue org offers that). We basically got 2 weeks (or more if we wanted) to see how the dog would settle into the family. Just as some people on this board warned us, the behavior changed a bit after the "honey-moon", but honestly not that much.

 

The way it worked for us we could have returned the dog to the shelter without adopting her and they would just have thanked us for our services with no strings attached. Honestly, I don't think we would even have considered it if we haven't been given the foster option.

 

This is also an excellent idea, I just might do that, thank you! :)

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1. Too much exercise for a BC of any age can be a bad thing. You basically create an exercise monster.

 

So what is a good amount (assuming the dog is old enough)? What's too little, and what's too much? How does the dog communicate his needs with you?

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Two things:

 

1) my working-bred Border collies don't get NEARLY as much exercise/stimulation as you propose. Maybe four two-mile off-leash hikes each week? If the weather (and our mentor's trialing schedule) permits, one or two lessons per week on sheep? For the younger one, an obedience class each week (if it doesn't get cancelled because of weather), and if I'm good, every other day I work in a couple of sessions practicing each new task. Of course, the pup has his own ideas, and will bring a toy to me while I'm at my computer, forcing me to take a break to play with him (what a hardship!). The dogs do come to work with me, and they're happy to chill in my office. If I'm home, they'll chase each other around my fenced back yard while I keep an eye on them through the window, if they're indoors, they sack out on a dog bed or in a crate most of the time.

 

2) The more exercise you provide a dog, the more it may demand. You shouldn't enter into acquiring a Border collie thinking it will NEED a ton of exercise. Mental stimulation is better than physical exercise.

 

3) If you give a dog too much exercise when it's young, you could ruin its joints for life.

 

4) Most of the working Border collies I know (trial dogs) spend a large fraction of their lives happily settled in crates.

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I fell into #2 above and exercised my first BC like crazy: walks, 5-8 mile runs, doggy day care, the park, throwing the ball... And he turned into an exercise, must do something all the time addict! Now with the addition of my second one, I alternate dogs and activity and neither get as much. The second one seems perfectly content with a :30 walk, the exercise addict is 'learning' to settle down a bit! I couldn't possibly keep up that level of activity with two BCs. Now they also have each other and spend many hours playing bitey/kissey face!

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How does the dog communicate his needs with you?

 

"Needs" - or "wants"? If I were to play with my 8-month-old pup every time he thought he "needed" to play with me, I'd never get any work done. I've identified these as "wants", not "needs". I'm happy to succumb to the temptation of playing with him some of the time he tries to engage me. But if I did it every time he brought a toy to me, I'd just create a monster who wanted to play 24/7. Dogs need to learn to settle when it isn't convenient for their owner/handler to play with them or hike with them or whatever. We have to set the boundaries, and stick to our guns.

 

It's all a question of who is in charge of your household - you or your dog(s)? Just as with raising kids, the answer lies in being consistent, and in setting firm boundaries. (Not that I've always been a model parent, mind you!). At some level it doesn't matter which of many breeds of high-energy dogs you choose to bring into your setting. With firm adherence to limits, and consistency, most dogs will learn to toe the line. But if you are inclined to waffle, Border collies are generally smart enough to take full advantage of the situation. And you may both rue the day.

 

This almost sounds like I'm a C. Milan follower - I'm NOT. I just think that dogs benefit from firm, consistent guidance, especially if it takes into account the needs of the humans as well as those of the dog(s).

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"Needs" - or "wants"? If I were to play with my 8-month-old pup every time he thought he "needed" to play with me, I'd never get any work done. I've identified these as "wants", not "needs". I'm happy to succumb to the temptation of playing with him some of the time he tries to engage me. But if I did it every time he brought a toy to me, I'd just create a monster who wanted to play 24/7. Dogs need to learn to settle when it isn't convenient for their owner/handler to play with them or hike with them or whatever. We have to set the boundaries, and stick to our guns.

 

It's all a question of who is in charge of your household - you or your dog(s)? Just as with raising kids, the answer lies in being consistent, and in setting firm boundaries. (Not that I've always been a model parent, mind you!). At some level it doesn't matter which of many breeds of high-energy dogs you choose to bring into your setting. With firm adherence to limits, and consistency, most dogs will learn to toe the line. But if you are inclined to waffle, Border collies are generally smart enough to take full advantage of the situation. And you may both rue the day.

 

This almost sounds like I'm a C. Milan follower - I'm NOT. I just think that dogs benefit from firm, consistent guidance, especially if it takes into account the needs of the humans as well as those of the dog(s).

 

I'm interested in what you're saying here. I guess my original question was...at what point do I know that the restrictions I'm putting on the dog are too restricting? How do I know the difference between a need and a want?

 

For example, my Golden and I went on a 10 mile bike ride today. When we got home, he wanted to play. I told him to settle down, so he went to sleep. I knew that he was expressing an over excitability and not actually telling me that he needed more exercise.

 

I guess I'm just worried that with a BC I'll read the signs wrong or something. I'll try to be getting the dog to settle when really I just haven't provided enough stimulation. Or I'll provide too much stimulation and make him neurotic. Goldens are just generally more chill than BCs, right? I guess, how do I know that I'm doing the right thing? You mentioned kids - I mean, even with my kids I do this. If my son comes to me whining at 11 am that he wants a snack, I tell him to start over. Try again. You don't talk like that. But if he wakes up in the middle of the night whining that he's cold, I just give him a blanket. I don't make him "unwhine" at 3 am, I let it go, because I know that what he NEEDS is a blanket, not a lesson. Does that make sense? My demands are the same - no whining - but I also know that he's just a kid. A dog who is whiny and just played fetch for two hours can chill out. A dog that's whiny because he's been traveling in a crate in a car for 6 hours and has to pee is justified in the whining. I just want to know how you can tell with a BC.

 

Also, can you tell me your opinion on Cesar Milan?

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Also, can you tell me your opinion on Cesar Milan?

 

 

If you want to learn how to read what your dog is trying to tell you give him a wide berth as he is often very wrong and gets himself bitten.

 

He is self taught and unfortunately did not have a very good or well informed teacher, just an excellent publicity machine. (There is nothing intrinsically wrong in being self taught as long as you learn the right things.)

 

He is right in that dogs need leadership and exercise but is bullying a terrified dog or dragging a St Bernard up the stairs by a choke chain the right way? What he gets right does not outweigh the damage he does by getting it wrong for me.

 

Leadership does not need confrontation.

 

Watch his shows with the sound off as what he says is often not what is happening.

 

If you want to see an example of how wrong he gets it search on You Tube for "Cesar's Worst Bite".

 

The producers can put a "Don't try this at home" warning on the shows but in reality people will try to emulate Cesar's "magic". Is it responsible to promote techniques that can result in serious damage?

 

This explains the objections of many welfare / behaviour organisations and individuals to the man -

 

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/press-statement.php

 

Check on the links at the side.

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Dear Doggers,

 

For an unbiased view of Mr. Milan, look up the New Yorker piece on him. He is one of the finest dog trainers I've ever seen work - his intuitions and body language are magnificent. He is loathed by many Skinnerites because he gets results w/o reference to their theories and he employs corrections (anathema to many Skinnerites).

 

That said - I doubt that novice dog trainers can learn much from Mr. Milan. He relies on over-broad notions? propositions? to explain very specific moves with particular dogs. He is, like so many others, a better dog trainer than a dog owner trainer.

 

Many on this list revere Dr. Skinner's theories and his latter-day disciples others, myself included, ignore him and use corrections when appropriate. I can't think our training squabbles matter much to beginners - what does matter is who you can learn from. Some claim to have learned from Mr. Milan's books, others from Karen Pryor's or Bill Koehler's. I'm one of those who learns poorly from books/videos but can learn 'hands-on'.

 

When it's time to choose a trainer/mentor for you and your dog, I suggest you watch the trainer with his/or her own dog. If you say, "Yes. That's the dog I want!" and (as important) "That's the dog owner I want to become!" - you've found a good match.

 

Then, you've got work to do.

 

Donald McCaig

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Dear Doggers,

 

For an unbiased view of Mr. Milan, look up the New Yorker piece on him. He is one of the finest dog trainers I've ever seen work - his intuitions and body language are magnificent.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Really?

 

Are we talking about the same guy?

 

The guy who "didn't see it coming" when Holly the lab bit him?

 

Not what I'd call "magnificent intuition."

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I think Ceaser Millan started out with some good natural dog handling instincts. Reality TV has either dulled his instincts or made him abandon them for the sake of "solving" a problem in a 30 min TV show. I'd take anything shown on TV with a huge grain of salt. He's right sometimes but really wrong other times.

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The dog looks in good weight to me. There are different styles of lab out there with the field line dogs often being slimmer built and the show line dogs being heavier set but also generally kept fat. Most labs I see are just run of the mill pets without being either show or field in breeding and they can be any kind of build. Our field lab was moderately stocky but athletic. He was bred for field trials.

 

I still can't believe he says 'I didn't see that coming'. You could see it coming a mile away.

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Oh, I thought if you could see more than 2 ribs it was underweight. I counted 5 ribs just from looking on the TV. But I also don't own a lab, I own a Golden (who is stocky and athletic) and my pyre/greyhound mix has the build of the greyhound so super skinny.

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I guess I'm just worried that with a BC I'll read the signs wrong or something. I'll try to be getting the dog to settle when really I just haven't provided enough stimulation. Or I'll provide too much stimulation and make him neurotic. Goldens are just generally more chill than BCs, right? I guess, how do I know that I'm doing the right thing? . . . A dog that's whiny because he's been traveling in a crate in a car for 6 hours and has to pee is justified in the whining. I just want to know how you can tell with a BC.

 

BCs are dogs, too. They're not all that much different from Goldens and other dogs in their signals and communications. They're active (but then so are a lot of other breeds) and they need mental stimulation as well as physical activity (ditto).

 

But the primary difference is that they've been bred for generations to work, which makes them need to feel useful in a way that many other dogs don't have. They also have a very clear and definite need for human interaction and partnership, again, more so than most other breeds.

 

So, you can "tell with a BC" in the same way that you can with other dogs. It's just that they may let you know earlier than many other dogs will, with less, shall we say, provocation (i.e. the provocation being boredom, usually much less than physical inactivity). I often tell people that BCs have great problem solving skills, and that if their problem is boredom, you won't like the ways that they'll solve the problem. They'll get destructive or neurotic or develop OCD behaviors, etc. You'll know if they're bored!

 

 

Also, can you tell me your opinion on Cesar Milan?

 

I'm sure you'll get lots of answers on this, but try searching the archives here for detailed answers. And try searching the internet, too. Lots and lots of stuff, from Psychology Today blog posts to articles by noted canine behaviorists explaining whats wrong with his methods.

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He is one of the finest dog trainers I've ever seen work - his intuitions and body language are magnificent.

 

The only thing "magnificent" about Cesar Millan is his sometimes downright cruelty and ineptitude.

 

Anyone who can read dogs can clearly see that many of the dogs he says are "rehabilitated" at the end of the shows are in fact so stressed that they're too shut down to offer any behaviors at all. That's not rehabilitation.

 

Nor is the abuse he inflicts on dogs like Shadow the husky, or JonBee the Jindo or Holly the Lab rehabilitation. Do an internet search on any of these and see what the reaction of professionals is.

 

And as for the bites these and other dogs have given him, without fail the ones I've seen he provoked himself. He corners these dogs, harasses them beyond the breaking point and gives them no other option than to bite to protect themselves. That's not "rehabilitation", though I guess it does qualify as dramatic TV.

 

And as far as his ability to read dogs . . . I could see those bites coming long before they happened, though he didn't seem to and often commented to that effect.

 

The objections to Millan are not so much that he uses corrections. I agree that there can be a time and place for corrections when other, more positive methods may have failed. But much of what he does crosses the line from correction to abuse.

 

So, yeah, Cesar's "magnificent" if you want hyped up, dramatic, ratings driven TV. But despite the many good things he's included, like the need for exercise and leadership (which, as Mumdog points out, doesn't begin to outweigh the negatives) there's so much more wrong with his approach that I could never with clear conscience recommend him to anyone -- or respect anyone who would.

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The disclaimer's in case one is not quite strong enough that day to sustain a good Alpha Roll...lol

 

All kidding aside, I think the disclaimer's mostly in case someone gets bitten trying to execute an Alpha roll or any of his other "techniques". . . which is a very real risk given the nature of what a dog would rightly perceive as an attack on it.

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Did anyone notice that during the whole "Holly" episode, the dog actually never became aggressive over food, but always after Ceasar physically abused her or her owner taunted her with a stick?

 

I don't think the owner was taunting her, I think he had seen aggression previously and was using the stick to show the camera how she reacted (as opposed to, say, his own hand).

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I haven't found the video where the owner does whatever he does with the stick, but here's an excellent slo-mo version of the attack by Cesar that leads to the bite with an analysis of both of their body languages.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omxz1YAyc4w

 

I don't know if I can stomach watching any more of this (I wasn't up for it just now, either), but I'd like to see if I can find the stick stuff.

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