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Is Your Veterinarian Being Honest w/You--ABC News


Kris L. Christine
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Is Your Veterinarian Being Honest with You? ABC News 11/22/13 http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/veterinarian-honest-20987714 (Please copy & paste link into your browser if it doesn't work by clicking on it.)

"Pushing the Shots" at 4:31. Remember as you watch that the American Animal Hospital Association Canine Vaccine Guidelines referenced in this news article show distemper, parvo & hepatitis vaccines have a proven MINIMUM duration of immunity of 7 years by challenge and up to 15 years serologically.

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association Canine Vaccine Guidelines http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm state on Page 18 that: “We now know that booster injections are of no value in dogs already immune, and immunity from distemper infection and vaccination lasts for a minimum of 7 years based on challenge studies and up to 15 years (a lifetime) based on antibody titer.” They further state that hepatitis and parvovirus vaccines have been proven to protect for a minimum of 7 years by challenge and up to 9 and 10 years based on antibody count.


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Canine parvo type 2, distemper, adeno type 1 and parainfluenza: "These results suggest that the duration of serological response induced by modified-live vaccines against CPV-2, CDV, CAV-1 and CPiV...vaccines, is beyond 18 months and may extend up to 9 years. Accordingly, these vaccines may be considered for use in extended revaccination interval protocols as recommended by current canine vaccine guidelines." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23186088

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I watched that Friday night on tv and was laughing at the teeth cleaning portion. I have several customers at work who bring their dogs to their vet every single year to be put under anesthesia for a teeth cleaning. $300-400 a year for just that!

 

I did like when the former vet on that program said that people need to remember that they are walking into a business not just a vet office. I am so happy to have a vet I can speak openly with and ask questions to. I know a lot of people just go in and do whatever the vet says without ever asking what something is for or why the dog needs that. I wouldn't let my doctor order tests, give me vaccines or order surgery without asking why and trying to understand so I can make an informed decision.

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One of my friends is a RN and insists her dogs need yearly teeth cleaning. Her last ancient dog had his teeth cleaned twice a year. Of my dogs, ages 8, 11 and 15, only the oldest has had her teeth cleaned and that was 4 or 5 years ago when she needed a tooth pulled and was referred out to a different vet. Again, I am very thankful for my vet and his approach to providing care to my dogs.

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I think I have had a dog teeth cleaning exactly once in the 30 odd years I have had my border collies. And it wasn't nearly so expensive back then. I think runs about $300 around here.

 

I wonder just what percent of a vet's income comes from annual shots and teeth cleanings? I know that spaying and neutering used to be a large part of their income but now there are so many places that do low cost I think that part of their income has really changed.

 

My yearly check-up for the dogs now is pretty much their heartworm check and their rabies if they need it. And worming if they need it. Most of the cost for my dogs is for the inbetween stuff if they are sick or I am worried about something.

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I wonder just what percent of a vet's income comes from annual shots and teeth cleanings?

Not sure about the teeth cleaning, but this is what Consumer Reports said in 2003.

 

Consumer Reports Veterinary Care Without the Bite July 2003 http://www.consumerreports.org/Pets/

 

"About 66 percent of the 188 million visits to the vet by cats and dogs in 2001 involved vaccinations, and this bread-and-butter business made up 14 percent of the average vet's income. "

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On 11/24/2013 at 11:18 AM, Tommy Coyote said:

I wonder just what percent of a vet's income comes from annual shots and teeth cleanings?

 

Can't answer about the teeth cleanings, or the actual question about vaccines when it comes down to it.

 

But I have read that when the official AVMA (AVHA?) recommendations on vaccine boosters went from one year to 3 that it was a political decision rather than a scientifically based one. The evidence then was that duration of immunity was at least 7 years, but the members of the association (i.e. veterinarians) vehemently objected to a 7 year recommendation for boosters because they said people wouldn't bring their pets in for annual wellness exams if they didn't believe they had to come in for vaccine boosters, and that vet practices would suffer unsustainable losses as a result, and so the 3 year compromise was reached.

 

It's pretty bad, imo, when decisions like that are based on economics rather than science. And, of course, many vets continued to mislead their clients into believing that their pets needed annual boosters for many years. And I think many still don't disabuse clients of that mistaken belief if they don't question it.

 

And that, imo, is unconscionable . . . .

 

I've edited it to read from one year to 3! (not the 23 I originally mistyped)

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Some breeds of dog have such bad teeth (genetically) that they really do need them cleaned regularly. I've owned many a BC that never needed them done.

 

Remember when you pay for a cleaning that dogs have to undergo general anesthesia. Our clinic discounts the costs to try to make it more accessible to people because we think it's so important. Also remember that most people have insurance, which lowers their perceived cost of care. (If you did the same exact procedures on people they often cost 10x as much.)

 

Some vaccines really don't seem to offer immunity much beyond a year. You can ask about titers. Most vets will offer them if you need proof of immunity. And BTW, I have seen distemper and parvo in dogs who had not been vaccinated for more than 7 years.

 

I sure as heck didn't go into this profession for the paycheck. I could have made a lot more with a lot less education (and educational debt) had I done something else. I do need to make a living though and pay off my student loans. That said, like most vets, I offer my clients options and help them choose one that makes them comfortable both medically and financially.

 

And yeah, it's a business. We need to buy equipment, pay employees, pay the electric bill, buy meds, etc. We don't have any government subsidies helping us out.

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Liz, pet owners have no issue with veterinarians, dentists, pediatricians, or physicians earning a living wage. What most people have a problem with is when they are charged for unnnecessary/redundant medical procedures, testing, medication, or vaccinations.

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Inflammatory programs that show only the worst of the worst do nothing to foster a good relationship with vets. The vast majority of us are not out to rob people of their money. 99% of the time, when people are screaming at us claiming we are only trying to rob them of their money, we were doing nothing but recommending good medicine.

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I have read that when the official AVMA (AVHA?) recommendations on vaccine boosters went from one year to 3 that it was a political decision rather than a scientifically based one. The evidence then was that duration of immunity was at least 7 years, but the members of the association (i.e. veterinarians) vehemently objected to a 7 year recommendation for boosters because they said people wouldn't bring their pets in for annual wellness exams if they didn't believe they had to come in for vaccine boosters, and that vet practices would suffer unsustainable losses as a result, and so the 3 year compromise was reached.

Controversy Over Vaccines Veterinarians divided when it comes to immunity by JoAnna Lou The Bark
February 22, 2013 http://thebark.com/content/controversy-over-vaccines

 

"But even with the AVMA and AAHA constantly revisiting their guidelines, pet vaccines remain a tricky topic. It's further complicated by the fact that many studies are sponsored by vaccine manufacturers, which creates a potential bias. Dr. Richard Ford, a 2003 AAHA Canine Vaccination Guidelines Task Force member, has said that the decision to recommend a three year re-vaccination schedule was an arbitrary compromise that was not based on science."

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On 11/24/2013 at 5:10 PM, Liz P said:

Inflammatory programs that show only the worst of the worst do nothing to foster a good relationship with vets.

 

I don't believe that the ABC newscast posted to begin this thread was inflammatory. It was measured and clearly indicated that most vets are honest.

 

But with all due respect to veterinarians (and I don't say that snidely. I have considerable respect for vets and one of my best friends is a vet and I've worked for her and spent countless hours in her clinic helping out and have seen the ways many people have mistreated her), I've had far too many experiences with arrogant, self-righteous and/or incompetent vets to just blindly accept that they always know best.

 

To name only a few, there was the vet who quite bluntly told me -- several years after the new AVMA 3 year guidelines had been published -- not to question him when I declined booster shots in a year; the vet who fired me from her practice, after dressing me down in a crowed waiting room when, after I'd noticed that the scrotum on a freshly neutered dog was as large as it was prior to surgery, I'd inquired whether she'd done a castration or a vasectomy because I was (in her mind) accusing her of lying to me about which procedure she'd done (she could simply have explained, as she eventually did, that such swelling swelling was not unusual in older dogs); the vet who at 5 p.m. hadn't bothered to return my 8 a.m. phone call informing him that a dog that been seen in his practice the day before was now vomiting blood (he hadn't seen the dog, but the vet who had was off that day and he was the practice owner, and the dog was misdiagnosed and given meds that caused the bloody vomit, and quite possibly resulted in the death of that 3 year old dog 2 days later); or the vet who misdiagnosed another dog and prescribed a medication that was dangerous for a human to come in contact for, for either meningitis or encephalitis (sorry, I forget which one) before finally sending me to Cornell for a consult, whose vets were flabbergasted that she hadn't even bothered to do an x-ray, which would have clearly shown the herniated disk that was the real problem. These are only some of the issues I've had with vets over the years.

 

I know vets aren't gods, and that they, like everyone else are human beings and can be fallible and/or greedy. I also know that vets have considerably more knowledge of the whole range of animal medicine than I'll ever have. But that's no reason for them to assume that all their clients are witless fools (even though many of them may be) who don't deserve to be treated as intelligent partners in their pets' health care. And until more of them are willing to do that, then there will continue to be people who regard them with a measure of skepticism.

 

And, Liz, I don't think you're one of those vets . . . nor do I assume that any new vet I meet is. I'm more than willing to enter a practice with an open mind until I have reason to believe otherwise. A relationship goes both ways, and if a vet wants me to respect her or him, I also expect to be respected for what I know and my ability to think for myself and participate in the decision making process.

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I'm more than willing to enter a practice with an open mind until I have reason to believe otherwise. A relationship goes both ways, and if a vet wants me to respect her or him, I also expect to be respected for what I know and my ability to think for myself and participate in the decision making process.

 

Exactly. I am a trained scientist and I know how to do research. I know what are good sources of information and what are not. I am my pet's advocate and I expect to be heard, my opinions considered, and my concerns (be they cost, quality of life, necessity, whatever) understood and included in an plan going forward. I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

J.

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Exactly. I am a trained scientist and I know how to do research. I know what are good sources of information and what are not. I am my pet's advocate and I expect to be heard, my opinions considered, and my concerns (be they cost, quality of life, necessity, whatever) understood and included in an plan going forward. I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

J.

^^THIS^^

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I had an experience with Tilly when she was 3 months old she started frequent urination dribbling ect took her to the vet suspecting bladder infection. They wanted a urine sample so got it after chasing dog around with pie plate because there was no way to get the bottle supplied between her and the ground. I had just switched her to a new feed she said she showed some crystals in her urine. I told her I would try her back on her original formula dog food when I went to pick up her medicine the vet tech put a bag of adult dog food for crystal control on the counter. I asked what it was for she said the vet had prescribed it I told her to put it back because I was not putting her on adult dog food. She gave me this blank look and said but we want you to use this and I said told the vet I would try her back on her original dog food first before committing to buying the special vet supplied dog food she then said when do you want to schedule her for spaying I said I had no intention of getting her spayed till I seen how she did at training she starts to hard sell me on early spaying and I said I thought I just said no again into the hard sell because apparently I am not smart enough to make my own decision with My dog. I know there are many good Vets out there that want to help and build a relationship with clients but it is when you get the up sell hard sell experience that you start to question things.

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I am a trained scientist and I know how to do research. I know what are good sources of information and what are not.

 

I'm not a trained scientist. But I still know how to do research (although not a scientist, I'm an academic), and I can also evaluate what are good sources.

 

No vet should ever assume that their clients aren't capable of making informed decisions until they have ample reason to suspect otherwise. Even then, they should make every reasonable attempt to educate their clients and offer options.

 

ETA: I don't mean to suggest that someone must be either a trained scientist or an academic to be intelligent, well informed and capable of making their own decisions. There are plenty of people who are neither and can hold their own quite well. :D

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I've been lucky. I've had great vets that I really trusted. But there are a couple that my customers go to that I wouldn't ever go to. Yet they really like them.

 

I did change vets last year but it was because the vet I had gone to worked by himself, by appointment and if he was gone he didn't have a back up. He was off Wed. Worked half a day on Sat. and was off Sunday. And if he was on vacation I was just shit out of luck. So I moved over to a clinic that has 4 vets and I can get in always. Weekends I have to go to the emergency vet but that's OK. I know him and have gone up there for years.

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No vet should ever assume that their clients aren't capable of making informed decisions until they have ample reason to suspect otherwise. Even then, they should make every reasonable attempt to educate their clients and offer options.

I completely agree -- every pet owner has the right to full disclosure and informed consent when it comes to veterinary medication, vaccination, or medical procedures, just as we all expect and deserve the same from our physicians, pediatricians, and dentists.

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I'm not a trained scientist. But I still know how to do research (although not a scientist, I'm an academic), and I can also evaluate what are good sources.

 

No vet should ever assume that their clients aren't capable of making informed decisions until they have ample reason to suspect otherwise. Even then, they should make every reasonable attempt to educate their clients and offer options.

 

ETA: I don't mean to suggest that someone must be either a trained scientist or an academic to be intelligent, well informed and capable of making their own decisions. There are plenty of people who are neither and can hold their own quite well. :D

Oh yeah, I also didn't mean to imply that anyone had to be a scientist or anything else--more trying to say that a vet (or doctor, for that matter) can't really know a client's background unless they ask or otherwise get to know the client. Nothing irks me more than a vet assuming that I am a clueless yahoo. And yes, I've worked in many aspects of veterinary medicine and I know there are indeed a lot of clueless folks, as well as folks who just don't give a damn, and I know dealing with such people can be a tough row to hoe, but it seems to me that dealing with clients who are the opposite of that--informed, caring, concerned, wanting knowledge and dialogue--would be a welcome circumstance, though that doesn't always seem to be the case.

 

J.

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"it seems to me that dealing with clients who are the opposite of that--informed, caring, concerned, wanting knowledge and dialogue--would be a welcome circumstance, though that doesn't always seem to be the case."

 

It is nice, but the exception rather than the rule. Not saying that most clients don't care, but that doing their own research may not be a priority to them.

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That relationship with one's regular vet is soooo important. I've had two I would consider excellent - one of whom I'd seen frequently, though he was 400+ miles away, for my old girl. When she started itching inconsolably, and two other vets couldn't figure it out, he LISTENED to me (on the phone), without ever seeing the dog that time; said he'd get back to me; later the same day, he did, said he'd consulted with a friend/vet/dermatologist - and they suspected mites. We treated, and voila! Itching stopped 5 days later. This, after TWO in-person (in-dog?) vet visits to other vets. And one of those vets is otherwise great. The second wanted to sell me Science Diet Joint food - because it has lots of Omegas in it, and that was "obviously" what the dog was lacking. I declined.

 

My regular guy now understands that I *do* know about some things, research as best I can, and he is happy to discuss options with me before doing anything. He doesn't particularly like my "less vaccine is better" philosophy, but he does titers when requested, and sends them to Dr. Dodds. He also isn't versed on raw food, but again, is fine with me doing it - and has said that my dogs' coats, teeth and muscles are great!

 

I saw that documentary and thought it, maybe not inflammatory, but certainly sensational. Isn't that what TV viewers want these days? Maybe it will give someone pause to at least ask some questions, but I do agree, it wasn't very "nice" to most of the vets out there.

 

diane

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I saw that documentary and thought it, maybe not inflammatory, but certainly sensational. Isn't that what TV viewers want these days? Maybe it will give someone pause to at least ask some questions, but I do agree, it wasn't very "nice" to most of the vets out there.

 

Nice is as nice does . . . I certainly don't think the vets who are doing this are being very "nice" to their clients.

 

And if the honest (and "nice") vets don't like what people think of them because of the less than scrupulous ones, well, then, perhaps they should take it up with the people within their ranks who are giving them black eye. -_-

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