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I'm not even in search of a puppy but I know there are a lot of us on line here in the NW so I would like to recommend this breeder. They look pretty legit to me however, I'm still pretty new to BCs so I would like to know what you all think of them?

 

http://www.midnightbordercollies.biz/about-us.php

 

Why would you recommend any breeder just because you found it online?

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Guys .... let's don't go there, okay?

This post was posted LAST YEAR and now a new person has signed onto this forum for the sole purpose of making ONE post to defend this breeder.

If you bite, I'm gonna start calling every one of you Fish. ;)

 

Let sleeping posts lie.

~ Gloria

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I believe that the BC community will always have to contend with a certain sort of division in this regard. They are working dogs, bred carefully to a high standard over many generations, and it rankles some people that others want them as "just pets".

 

Molly (newest puppy) comes from working lines - both parents having excellent "credentials" - and was "selected" sight unseen before she was born - in fact, before she was concieved, I picked this puppy. I picked her based on her breeding, her parents and all the dogs that came before her - because I was looking for a very specific type of puppy (whose future I hope is in service work).

 

However, if I was just looking for a pet, a companion dog, I might still select a BC because of their inherent intelligence - and I would care less about certain inheritable qualities (such as abiltiy to work stock or be an agility dog, etc.) and more about others (such as coat and eye color, likely size as an adult, gender, general personality, etc.). Both would be "real" Border Collies and both would be good at their intended purpose if raised properly.

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Hi

 

I know it is not a great idea for a new poster to jump into controversy, but here I go. :rolleyes: I'm brand new to the site, with a baby border collie, and although I've had many dogs in my home before this is the first puppy I've been solely responsible for, and also my first border collie. (I'm very determined to do my best!) So - take what i have to say as coming from a newbie who knows nothing and apologizes in advance. I'm learning as fast as I can.

 

I will probably come here and ask a lot of novice stupid questions, so I very much hope I don't offend anyone. You all very much know what you are talking about and give great advice. (I have something to say, but don't want to blow it here!)

 

I did my research and knew from a well thought-out long search that I wanted a Border Collie, even though I knew it would be challenging. Catherine's post about a non-herding buyer might look a bit like me (apologies again.) I knew what I wanted (border collie) but how do I find it? I also didn't understand the differences in the breeding lines at first.

 

Midnight Border Collies has a beautiful web site in my area, with beautiful pups, and would let me pick him out directly. How tempting! Did I want to take a risk that a dog with a strong herding instinct might want to herd my kid? I did put myself on the Midnight Border Collie waiting list, with 20+ people in line ahead of me. I have to admit herding was not the most important aspect to me, so why not? I was also very easy. Done! At some point I did a search for "Midnight Border Collie Reviews" which lead me to this site, again, and gave you all another chance to help educate me about what I should be looking for in a good BC pup. Eventually, I decided personality is more important than color, of course, and through your post descriptions learned that those qualities came from well-bred herding parents from responsible breeders.

 

I also had the chance to buy a beautiful AKC BC pup, also readily available and easy. The mom of an acquaintance of mine is an AKC border collie breeder in my area, a definitely available, easy possibility.

 

I did my research though, and after reading about my 500th post here I started to slowly understand what you all are fighting for - in preserving the working border collie and all of it's traits, herding or not. I started to see the beauty and benefits of that, and changed my mind. I ended up canceling my Midnight reservation and bringing home a beautiful pup from working parents. It was hard-won though. I feel lucky enough to have read the right thread at the right time that pointed me to the right site that just happened to have a pup available from a woman who wasn't prejudiced against pet home. I'm so happy it worked out that way! (Grateful too!!) But it was hard to find, and I suspect most people don't want to go through all of that to bring home a pup, even the suitable non-herding homes.

 

I so very much wish that the benefits of having a pup from working parents was easier to find up front, and available breeders easier to find too. I totally understand (now) that the best puppies come from awesome working parents. The parents are so good, they should be out working, not pregnant all the time - so there are only puppies (if not pre-sold) every few years. Check. There was some advice here for interested parties to go to herding competitions and ask around for pups. I was a little intimated by the thought of doing cold-approaches to potential breeders in the random crowd - that sounds a bit scary and time intensive! It is not that I won't do the work to do this pup right, I will, but stalking competitions sounded scary. What next? The good pups are not on web sites, so then what?

 

I am very excited about doing something active with this pup - although I don't know if that will be yet - agility, flyball, obedience, or herding, or what yet... I'm dedicated and here. But I still feel like the fact that this beautiful great pup, who is begging for attention in my living room right now, was found by total luck. Speaking of which, time to go be with him. :)

 

Why can't getting a great quality border collie from herding parents be as easy as getting a pet or AKC puppy for those who are willing to do the work but don't happen to live with something to herd, and for those who are not already dialed into the herding community?

 

Once again - I'm learning as I go. You all already have taught me much. Feel free to correct anything I got wrong. I'm open to that. I'm learning. I just want you to know I feel fortunate to have my working-line pup right now, and wish it had been easier.

 

Thanks,

New BC mom.

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There are a number of reasons why it isn't "easier" and most of them are good reasons. Here are some -

 

1. The best and most responsible breeders generally don't usually produce very many pups at all. They breed when they want a pup from a cross, for themselves. So there aren't that many pups produced.

 

2. The best and most responsible breeders don't (as you note) use a bitch as a puppy-producing machine but are using her as a working and/or trialing dog and proving her worth.

 

3. The best and most responsible breeders produce pups that are usually spoken for in advance (since they don't produce many and produce from proven parents in a well-thought-out mating).

 

4. The best and most responsible breeders want to know the results of their breeding choices and so want to see as many pups as possible that they produce to into work/trial homes so they can be proven.

 

5. The best and most responsible breeders like to place as many pups as possible with people they know and respect. Taking a chance on someone they don't know does involve a risk (more of a risk than if it's someone with whom they are familiar).

 

6. The best and most responsible breeders don't care a bit about color, ear set, and other cosmetic physical characteristics. Sure, they may have preferences and some of those are practical, like short coats in areas where burrs are a problem, but for them, a good dog is a good dog. And they would never breed for "fancy" or "rare" colors.

 

7. The best and most responsible breeders are trying to produce a litter with the best working characteristics they can - instinct, intelligence, soundness, health, biddability, sound temperament. That's because they rely on the dogs and the people they sell pups to will rely on the dogs. Their reputation among those that know working dogs is partly based on pups they produce. They want people who get their pups to benefit from getting good working dogs as a result. They want to see the breed not only maintained as a working breed but improved.

 

The opposite is also generally true. There may be exceptions to every rule but they are certainly few and far between.

 

All of these combined can really make it hard for someone new or without connections to find a pup. If it's too easy, is it really worth it?

 

PS - Sorry not to let it die but I think you raised some good questions. Other people can give you much better answers.

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Hi

Why can't getting a great quality border collie from herding parents be as easy as getting a pet or AKC puppy for those who are willing to do the work but don't happen to live with something to herd, and for those who are not already dialed into the herding community?

 

I'll risk being called Fish (could make some amusing jokes with that one but I'll refrain) and keep the thread going because this is an interesting question and comes to the heart of maintaining the breed as a working dog. It's curious to me that you didn't frame this as something like--"it's not that hard to get a well-bred working border collie. I did it coming at it as a total newbie. Like many things worth doing, it takes some time and effort, but I love that I'm part of stewarding the border collie as the breed preeminently suited to working stock even though that's not what I intend to do with my border collie."

 

Why didn't you? (Not being argumentative here, honestly curious).

 

If you think of maintaining this breed (at least in the US) as in part an artisan endeavor, one involving expertise, craft and experience, it might be more understandable why it's not easy to find one when you newly decide you want one (along with the practical reasons Sue pointed to). If you think through the purpose for most breeding of working border collies, you'll see that the purpose isn't to make border collie puppies, the purpose is to try and produce a better livestock herding dog.

 

The consequence of that is that making the puppies is as hard to do as most other things that take time, experience and expertise, and many people who want one won't do the work you did to find that kind of purposeful breeding. Maybe that's ok.

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MnM - kudos to you for continuing to do your research and being willing to change as you learned.

 

I'll flip the question around a bit - Why would it be a good thing to make it as easy to get a well bred pup as it is to buy from anyone who advertises on the internet? I would think that if one is willing to do the work in raising and living with a Border Collie then the search is the easy part. Even when it takes some time.

 

Most good things in life take both work and patience. Internet websites at times cater to those who want instant gratification. Which often ends up being a bad thing for the dog.

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The best and most responsible breeders are trying to produce a litter with the best working characteristics they can - instinct, intelligence, soundness, health, biddability, sound temperament. That's because they rely on the dogs and the people they sell pups to will rely on the dogs.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be bait. Maybe I should have let this thread die as requested and not posed a question.

 

To sum up my point: My purposes (family adventures and dog-centered activities) may be different than some of yours (herding), but the qualities above are important to both of us. I eventually learned here that those qualities come from the careful breeding for herding abilities you described. Someone on this site once stated that the qualities that make a great herding dog also make them great for everything else. Ok, I'm in. That is what I wanted. I also wanted to support the continuation of the amazing qualities of the breed and buy responsibly.

 

My guess is that there are other good, non-herding, responsible homes out there that would gladly take on a border collie from working lines if they only knew how. I've seen other posts out there saying 'help! I've been looking for a long time!' Those homes are facing the choice of going with either the easy flashy web sites, long hard searches taking a lot of effort, or luck (me - right place right time.) It feels like it shouldn't be that way.

 

Should those homes like mine end up with a pup from non-working lines, increasing the pet quality breeding occurring? If that is all they can find, that just might happen. Maybe that is ok? Should herding lines only be used for herding? If so, then why not positively recommend non-herding breeders for non-herding homes?

 

And yes - I will likely adopt a rescue for my second border collie, maybe. I'm not closed to that. But this is a 15 year commitment, and I wanted to raise at least one puppy with my kid as she grows up. It was important to me to do the puppy thing now.

 

Pippin - I like how you think! Yes, you reframed the question for me very well. I agree, I do love that I'm part of this now, and do feel like I did the right thing in doing my research and getting a great pup. I also appreciate you describing this as maintaining an artisan endeavor, one very much worth the effort. I am a total newbie and did find a pup, but I'm one of the lucky ones, and luck shouldn't have anything to do with. I do feel that it was a little harder than it should have been. Just my experience.

 

Thanks!

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Most good things in life take both work and patience. Internet websites at times cater to those who want instant gratification. Which often ends up being a bad thing for the dog.

 

Maralynn - you make a very good point here, one I also agree with. Instant gratification when taking on the responsibility of a puppy probably isn't the best thing. I also agree that the good things in life are definitely work.

 

Hopefully even breeders who can be found through the internet would still be responsible about home placement.

 

Thanks!

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MnM-- sounds like it wasn't luck at all--you considered the various positions, determined your own ethics about getting your pup and were patient until a situation that suited those ethics emerged. To me that's the result of principled planning.

 

Anyone could do the same. Many people won't because they want what they want when they want it.

 

I agree it can be tricky and it can be frustrating to connect to a community you aren't already a part of--maybe if folks didn't try and think in commodity and market terms with these dogs but in community terms, it would be less so.

 

Anyway, you are a total success story on getting a puppy that supports what you believe in--you can be someone who shows others the way to forge a path.

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Thank you Pippin's Person. That was kind of you to say.

 

It feels like luck. I found the classified site that eventually led me to this breeder hidden in a recommendation to another poster in this site's archives. If I hadn't of kept reading post after post that night, and responded immediately to that breeder's ad, I might have missed this opportunity and still be searching...

 

Puppy nap time is over. I'm out to play!

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I hope you didn't think I was being critical of you. I didn't mean that at all. I was just trying to answer the question that is often posed - "Why does it seem so hard to find a pup from good working lines and responsible breeders?"

 

I think you wrote a good post, well considered and well written, about an important question. I apologize if you thought I was being snarky because I did not mean to be, and I wasn't being critical of anything you said.

 

I re-read my comments and I do apologize as I can see where you might have felt they were aimed at you and implying criticism. As others have pointed out, irresponsible breeders do make it easy because they are in the business of producing and selling pups, so making sales "easy" is important to them - as are flashy and cutesy websites!

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be bait. Maybe I should have let this thread die as requested and not posed a question.

 

To sum up my point: My purposes (family adventures and dog-centered activities) may be different than some of yours (herding), but the qualities above are important to both of us. I eventually learned here that those qualities come from the careful breeding for herding abilities you described. Someone on this site once stated that the qualities that make a great herding dog also make them great for everything else. Ok, I'm in. That is what I wanted. I also wanted to support the continuation of the amazing qualities of the breed and buy responsibly.

 

My guess is that there are other good, non-herding, responsible homes out there that would gladly take on a border collie from working lines if they only knew how. I've seen other posts out there saying 'help! I've been looking for a long time!' Those homes are facing the choice of going with either the easy flashy web sites, long hard searches taking a lot of effort, or luck (me - right place right time.) It feels like it shouldn't be that way.

 

Should those homes like mine end up with a pup from non-working lines, increasing the pet quality breeding occurring? If that is all they can find, that just might happen. Maybe that is ok? Should herding lines only be used for herding? If so, then why not positively recommend non-herding breeders for non-herding homes?

 

And yes - I will likely adopt a rescue for my second border collie, maybe. I'm not closed to that. But this is a 15 year commitment, and I wanted to raise at least one puppy with my kid as she grows up. It was important to me to do the puppy thing now.

 

Pippin - I like how you think! Yes, you reframed the question for me very well. I agree, I do love that I'm part of this now, and do feel like I did the right thing in doing my research and getting a great pup. I also appreciate you describing this as maintaining an artisan endeavor, one very much worth the effort. I am a total newbie and did find a pup, but I'm one of the lucky ones, and luck shouldn't have anything to do with. I do feel that it was a little harder than it should have been. Just my experience.

 

Thanks!

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Hear, hear!

 

MnM-- sounds like it wasn't luck at all--you considered the various positions, determined your own ethics about getting your pup and were patient until a situation that suited those ethics emerged. To me that's the result of principled planning.

Anyone could do the same. Many people won't because they want what they want when they want it.

I agree it can be tricky and it can be frustrating to connect to a community you aren't already a part of--maybe if folks didn't try and think in commodity and market terms with these dogs but in community terms, it would be less so.

Anyway, you are a total success story on getting a puppy that supports what you believe in--you can be someone who shows others the way to forge a path.

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I hope you didn't think I was being critical of you. I didn't mean that at all.

 

No worries Sue. I didn't read it as critical. I appreciate your response. I know this thread was supposed to die, but it was a good discussion. :)

 

Thanks!

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I believe that bc should be breed for working ability by a knowledgeable person, even if the eventual owner will not use that dog for this purpose. If the dog does not have proven ability plus other good breeding qualities, they should not be bred. Even if you are getting a dog "just for pet purposes" .... Getting a puppy mill dog or a back yard breeder is voting for bad practices with your dollars. One may figure it is just one dog out of many. I take in second act dogs, dogs that did not have a great future. Cody, my BC, is exceptional to me. That being said he is fixed because other than stealing my heart his working ability is unknown. We are at our max with four dogs...people say why do you do it. I cannot stop all irresponsible breeding but I can make a difference to these four dogs. A small impact in a large problem. Buying a dog from breeders who are not acting in the best interest of the breed continues the problem. There are far to many breeds ruined because they were bred for characteristics that were not in the best interest of the animal.If we all did a little more work and stopped impulse purchases of animals the world would be a better place. Congrats to MnM, sounds like the extra effort was worth it.

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MnM-- sounds like it wasn't luck at all--you considered the various positions, determined your own ethics about getting your pup and were patient until a situation that suited those ethics emerged. To me that's the result of principled planning.

 

Anyone could do the same. Many people won't because they want what they want when they want it.

 

I agree it can be tricky and it can be frustrating to connect to a community you aren't already a part of--maybe if folks didn't try and think in commodity and market terms with these dogs but in community terms, it would be less so.

 

Anyway, you are a total success story on getting a puppy that supports what you believe in--you can be someone who shows others the way to forge a path.

 

 

^^ This. I've got to commend you too, MnM, for doing the work and ending up in the right place to get your puppy.

 

I think Sue's post is great, too.

 

I'd add, though, that what she says about the "best and most responsible breeders" of border collies is generally true of the best and most responsible breeders of any breed. They're often harder to find, aren't breeding just to mass produce dogs for the pet or any other market, aren't breeding multiple litters a year or bitches back to back, and are breeding only the best dogs in order to improve or at least maintain the quality pf the breed, which is usually not the show fad of the moment.

 

So you could just as easily gone through the same process finding a well bred German Shepherd or Cocker Spaniel or any number of other breeds as you did finding a well bred border collie.

 

People like you are an asset to our community. It's so much more rewarding "talking" to people like you than so many who come here wanting validation for choosing a breeder for all the wrong reason who dig in their heels and refuse to learn from what we're trying to say. Sadly, most of them post a few times and then we never hear from them again. So glad you stuck with us. B)

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So you could just as easily gone through the same process finding a well bred German Shepherd or Cocker Spaniel or any number of other breeds as you did finding a well bred border collie.

 

lol! I think you got me there. Not having bought a puppy before, of any kind, maybe I was starting with a faulty assumption that my experience trying to find a BC was harder. Maybe I should turn my whine of "why is buying a good bc so hard" to "why is buying any quality pup so hard". ;)

 

I've also been thinking more about Pippin's earlier comment about commodity vs. community. That was also a good point. Yes, I was thinking in supply/demand terms and not taking advantage of trying to reach out to the community. Maybe that was another mistake.

 

Thanks again for a good discussion!

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