vanillalove Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Hi everyone, I have been searching the boards for some advice on this particular topic but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. I'm looking for some advice on all things food for my 10 week old puppy. The breeder had them on Taste of the Wild Wetlands (nutritional info found here) and I picked up a bag since I figured I would put him on that first to see how we do. But now I am curious because I am hearing some conflicting things around whether it is really considered all-life stages and if it is appropriate for puppies (in terms of calcium and phos. levels). Also, we don't know how much to be feeding him because the guidelines on the bag are for adult dogs. We are using our best judgement on others with this breed/age of puppy but want to see what you guys think. Please let me know if you think we should return the bag of food for something else, your thoughts on anything else out there/what nutritional analysis we should be looking for, and how much you typically feed a 10 week old puppy. Thanks everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I am just finding out the hard way--I would never again give a puppy a food this high in protein. My orthopaedic surgeon suggests 22-25% protein for pups, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I am just finding out the hard way--I would never again give a puppy a food this high in protein. My orthopaedic surgeon suggests 22-25% protein for pups, A This is what I'm concerned with. A lot of the foods I like are higher than that. What would be a good food for puppies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Ones I have found that have lower protein are Fromm Duck and Sweet Potato and Acana Duck and Bartlett Pear. I don't know if switching the protein source would be a big deal so I would like to find a formula most similar to the Wetlands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 The protein thing is a myth. It's calcium levels that are critical, plus body condition score. The food your breeder was feeding is not recommended or approved for puppies. If you are concerned about puppy food and problems like OCD, choose a large breed puppy food. I've been tracking OCD in Border Collie pedigrees and have yet to hear of a case in which there was not a genetic predisposition. You can't blame environment for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 The protein thing is a myth. It's calcium levels that are critical, plus body condition score. The food your breeder was feeding is not recommended or approved for puppies. If you are concerned about puppy food and problems like OCD, choose a large breed puppy food. I've been tracking OCD in Border Collie pedigrees and have yet to hear of a case in which there was not a genetic predisposition. You can't blame environment for everything. So a high protein food can still be okay as long as the calcium levels are in check? What levels should I look for in percent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Liz, just curious - what calcium level would you recommend as an upper limit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Liz, just curious - what calcium level would you recommend as an upper limit? This, and if you can recommend any puppy foods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 The way I've heard it is there are 2 different calcium measurements you need to be concerned with. The calcium/phosphorus ratio needs to be close to 1:1 and no more than 1.3:1. You also want no more than 3.5 g of calcium per 1000kcal. This is why a lot of large breed puppy foods are not actually OK for large breed puppies. They may contain the correct ratio, but still have too much calcium. Also, the calcium level on the bag is a minimum, so you have to contact the company to ask for as fed values, which can be quite different. Some good foods are Earthborn Holistic Grain Free Coastal Catch and Meadow Feast. Nature's Variety Instinct Rabbit and LID Turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toney Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Just curiously, how have you been tracking OCD in border collies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 The way I've heard it is there are 2 different calcium measurements you need to be concerned with. The calcium/phosphorus ratio needs to be close to 1:1 and no more than 1.3:1. You also want no more than 3.5 g of calcium per 1000kcal. This is why a lot of large breed puppy foods are not actually OK for large breed puppies. They may contain the correct ratio, but still have too much calcium. Also, the calcium level on the bag is a minimum, so you have to contact the company to ask for as fed values, which can be quite different. Some good foods are Earthborn Holistic Grain Free Coastal Catch and Meadow Feast. Nature's Variety Instinct Rabbit and LID Turkey. Thanks for replying. I hope I have not ruined my puppy's bones because he has been on this. He's only been on it a couple weeks but I'd like to switch him as soon as possible. What do you think of the Acana variety I mentioned? The Duck and Barlett? Or even the Fromm Duck variety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Acana is an excellent brand. I don't have personal experience with Fromm, but it also looks like a good food. Others I like are Wellness, Eagle Pack Holistic Selects, Innova and Prairie. I personally feed RedPaw and have been particularly happy with the results. I choose a quality puppy food and keep them lean while they are growing. I track OCD by collecting pedigrees of affected dogs and looking for common ancestors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Acana is an excellent brand. I don't have personal experience with Fromm, but it also looks like a good food. Others I like are Wellness, Eagle Pack Holistic Selects, Innova and Prairie. I personally feed RedPaw and have been particularly happy with the results. I choose a quality puppy food and keep them lean while they are growing. I track OCD by collecting pedigrees of affected dogs and looking for common ancestors. Okay great. I personally really like the Acana/Orijen company - I like their values and they are Canadian (where I live) so I really like that aspect. I think I will put him on Acana right now as a puppy. I just feel more comfortable feeding it if there is controversy over certain nutrient levels. I'm a little paranoid. I will try to get some samples of the others and see what he likes. I hope I haven't damaged him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 All the Acana formulas were too high in calcium for a large breed, if that is the criteria you are looking for, however the Fromm 4 Star Duck and Sweet Potato was within range. And if you really like Champion Foods, I've heard the new Orijen Large Breed is also in range, but I haven't done the math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 All the Acana formulas were too high in calcium for a large breed, if that is the criteria you are looking for, however the Fromm 4 Star Duck and Sweet Potato was within range. And if you really like Champion Foods, I've heard the new Orijen Large Breed is also in range, but I haven't done the math. Would we consider an Aussie or Border Collie a large breed puppy? The Duck and Pear shows 1.3:1 for calcium:phos. Is this still too high? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I would not consider an Aussie or normal sized BC to be a large breed. The calcium/phosphorus ratio is just fine, but the amount of calcium per 1000 kcal. is high for a large breed dog. Without a history of issues within a line, I believe you are safe not worrying about it. In a medium breed, the most serious considerations besides genetics are overfeeding and overexercising, so keep your pup on the thin side and limit his exercise to an amount he wants to do on his own with no encouragement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Oh! Okay - so for larger breeds, we wouldn't use that. I get it. I like the idea of returning the bag we have now for something else (instead of throwing out the TOTW) so knowing the shop I bought from sells Acana and Fromm, I think I can do that! Thanks a bunch. You're so helpful. Is it possible to have done some damage at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Are you trying to stay away from any particular protein? Holistic Blend Chicken, Rice and Veg, Holistic Blend Lamb and Rice, Fromm 4 star Chicken Ala Veg, Fromm Large Breed puppy Gold, Fromm 4 Star Nutritionals Grain Free: Game Bird, Pork and Peas, Salmon Tunalini, and Surf and Turf, and Wellness CORE Puppy(not large breed) are all good foods that have good calcium levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Liz Your opinion about OCD being attributed to wholly to genetic predisposition seems to somewhat contradict your advice that diet can also influence. Just curious about this position in light if Dr. Canapp recent presentation at the Finals (I wasn't there...so 2nd hand info to me) that OCD isn't fully explained by genetics and that there are environmental influences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I didn't say it's fully explained by genetics. It's my opinion that a dog needs a genetic predisposition to develop it, that environment alone isn't enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I can't recommend any particular food, since I feed raw now. BUT I think an ideal way to feed a growing pup is to find several foods that meet your criteria and rotate them every bag or two. NO food is ideal for ALL dogs - though obviously some "do better" (whatever that means) on one than another. I did feed my growing pup kibble until she was about 10 months old - a wide variety of good kibbles, with fresh foods added now and then. She is now almost 16 months old, fit and strong! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanillalove Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Are you trying to stay away from any particular protein? Holistic Blend Chicken, Rice and Veg, Holistic Blend Lamb and Rice, Fromm 4 star Chicken Ala Veg, Fromm Large Breed puppy Gold, Fromm 4 Star Nutritionals Grain Free: Game Bird, Pork and Peas, Salmon Tunalini, and Surf and Turf, and Wellness CORE Puppy(not large breed) are all good foods that have good calcium levels. I'm not staying away from any particular protein. I did want to remain within the proteins that were in the Wetlands to hopefully keep the change minimal for my pup. But I have no reason to believe he has allergies or sensitivities to a certain protein. I have confirmed that the shop will return my bag of food which is great! I am going to switch right away. Is it worth gradually switching him (ie. keeping a couple cups of the TOTW to mix in with the new food slowly)? Or would I be better to take him off the TOTW immediately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 OCD is probably like cHD; a genetic predisposition which environment can then modify. In cHD % protein or calcium are not the key environmental factors but it is growth rates due to excessive caloric intake. It would not surprise me if the same holds true for OCD (growth rate as opposed to %protein or calcium). Since large breeds are predisposed to OCD (due to fast growth rates), info on these breeds is a good starting point for learning how to control the envirnmental factors that influence the development of OCD. Developmental orthopedic disease in large-breed puppies To help prevent the disease, it’s critical to control dogs’ growth to the best of our abilities through feeding the amount of calories needed to keep them in a lean body condition while they’re growing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toney Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Thanks, Mark. That makes good sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 If your dog is not used to switching foods then I would do a gradual transition. I switch mine all the time so they are used to it and need no transition time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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