5Bordercollies Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Hi guys, I was just wondering. Is there anything you can do to "cure" a pup who's taken to catching\ killing lambs? Except off course "the final solution". Just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Train it. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Preferably before the killing starts. (That was captain obvious speaking). The pup of course never should have been in the position it could get at the sheep in the first place. To the topic starter, is this an "academic" question or is there an actual sheep killing pup in your vicinity..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Don't let it run loose unsupervised or give it such an opportunity. Then train it. Prevent it from happening in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Maybe it would be good to go back to the actual question, how to cure it when it has already happened, and prevention for whatever reason failed. When I got my (completely untrained) Gláma, the farmer who owned her told me beware, she had been doing a "tug of war" with her brother that spring, the "rope" in question being a lamb. Though I was of course not too pleased about this, I liked her well enough, took her home, started stockwork training right away (she was about 14 months old at the time). She never displayed any tendency to catch/hurt sheep at my place. I also watched out that she did not get the chance to run free when sheep were near. I now trust her completely around sheep. So I think Donald´s advice is spot on, especially when the pup in question is young and untrained like mine was, and the behavior has not become habitual yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bordercollies Posted October 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 11 month old pup. Full brother to my Meg. A pup I had bred myself from excellent herding lines. Mother comes from some of the top Trailing lines in the country. The farmer who bought him from me had previously bought a pup from my previous litter ( I only bred two litters from this dog and bitch) and Cap is his right hand, a wonderful dog from what I've been told. His parent live right across from my grandma, so I see them often and the guy at the co-op knows I bred the dogs, and is a friend of this farmer so he also keeps me updated. Small towns - Ugh!!! Anyway so I assumed the farmer knows what he's doing with the dogs. Today I heard - from co-op guy that he had shot the pup cause he'd caught him in the veld on a lamb carcass with blood on his mouth. Apparently Don had been going missing from the yard from time to time. Don't know why he didn't just tie him up or build him a kennel, but there you have it, a perfectly good puppy gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Sounds like a clear case of owner mismanagement and the pup paid the ultimate price. I don't think I'd be selling a pup or dog to that person again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 How utterly senseless. If a young, unsupervised dog kills a lamb I'd chalk it up completely to mismanagement. What a shame that the dog had to pay the price for the owners shortcoming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 What a sad story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bordercollies Posted October 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 It seems to me some of the farmers around here have no sense when it comes to pups. A pup, also male indecently, was bought along with two sibling brothers by the local doctor. He found the four pups - he already had one- a little hard to handle, so he gave one half trained (on sheep) pup to his friend. Friend Is a business owner in town and not on the farm all the time. He did not put pup up appropriately, pup got into goat kraal, killed a bunch of lambs and I don't suppose I have to tell you what happened next... Makes me glad I stopped breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Sounds like a clear case of owner mismanagement and the pup paid the ultimate price. I don't think I'd be selling a pup or dog to that person again.I might also be inclined to get the word out that this farmer does not know how to handle dogs (or however you want to phrase it) so hopefully in the future he will have to go further afield to find someone willing to sell him a pup. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Wow. How sad for you and the dog. I have run into a lot of people that really think that these dogs don't need training. They think they have the instinct and somehow just do it all on their own. You take them out and let them loose and somehow they just know what they are doing. And those are farm people. I just hate to hear stories like that. I am so sorry. There are trained dogs that will kill stock if they get lose out there on their own or if they get to running with another dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Jack Knox always said that in Scotland they'd say that unrestrained border collies were the worst sheep worriers around. ETA: And it's not -- or shouldn't be -- all that surprising when you consider that the herding instinct is basically a variation of hunting instinct and prey drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 In the movie Babe, the sheep always refer to the Collies as "the wolves" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 Wow, what a tragic story. That was entirely and only the fault of the farmer and it's awful that the poor pup had to pay the price. Stupid, stupid people. I'm sorry your good pup went to such a bad end. ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 There are trained dogs that will kill stock if they get lose out there on their own or if they get to running with another dog. Too true. A friend took on a trained dog from a farmer she knew who didn't want her because she wasn't interested enough in sheep. That dog got out, disappeared off up the crag and killed a couple of lambs and was shot by the farmer who owned them. I'd rather take on a dog that had never been worked than one I know has been marked as a "failed" sheep dog. Too many sheep around here in very close proximity to take the chance and I know too many people who have lost dogs the same way. On the other hand, I do take dogs with unknown backgrounds but I treat them all as potential sheep chasers and they are always under close control or on lead near stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 Shoot the farmer, not the dog. The pup never should have been allowed in with the sheep unsupervised. Better fences, a kennel, a tie out chain, SOMETHING needed to be used to contain him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 I'm just musing, not disagreeing with anyone. I realize the farmer already had a "perfect for him" dog but I'm also wondering if this isn't a case of ignorance. For example, a farmer bought a well-bred pup from a very respected handler, raised it to six months of age, took it out to the pasture, and let it go to fetch the sheep. The instinct is bred in, right? Six month old pup, no training of any sort, let loose in a pasture with sheep to fetch - you can guess the outcome. While the pup didn't (that I am aware of) savage the sheep, he didn't do the job "out of the box" and it was a quick trip to the shelter where he was dumped as "useless". Fortunately, a reputable rescue got him and rehomed him appropriately. I sincerely question how many farmers/ranchers who simply don't know any better but have been told the dogs do it "instinctively" (and some are pretty much straight out of the box useful), find themselves in this same or a similar situation. They don't know what they are doing, the pup or dog isn't trained (or they don't know how to handle it), they don't manage properly, and the pup or dog is either "useless" or worse than that, a stock-killer. Either way, either relegated to a chain or shot. Ignorance is powerful but in all the wrong ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 I know of similar stories here. One of Iceland´s best known handlers thought he´d do a befriended farmer a favor giving him a well bred pup with good promise. Only to have it returned to him about a half year later labeled as "useless" (without a doubt after a similar scenario you describe Sue), so he decided to keep him. This dog went on to win the so called "landsmót", our national championship several times. His owner describes him as the most easily trainable and most talented dog he ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 I know of similar stories here. One of Iceland´s best known handlers thought he´d do a befriended farmer a favor giving him a well bred pup with good promise. Only to have it returned to him about a half year later labeled as "useless" (without a doubt after a similar scenario you describe Sue), so he decided to keep him. This dog went on to win the so called "landsmót", our national championship several times. His owner describes him as the most easily trainable and most talented dog he ever had. One would wonder if seeing the 'useless" dog win championships would help educate the befriended farmer. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly's Handler Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 It would be interesting to know the age and circumstance of lamb was it a new born or was it several months old the reason I say this is it may not have even been a case of chasing it down could have been a case of clean up as in a still born lamb or death at birth. As for the Border Collies attacking and chasing sheep even my Chihuahua will chase sheep if I let him No dog should be left unsupervised around livestock I have seen dogs that were used to chickens start chasing and killing when another dog started doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 ...Only to have it returned to him about a half year later labeled as "useless" (without a doubt after a similar scenario you describe Sue), so he decided to keep him..... I think this is the result any one of us would've expected to happen. But this farmer didn't do that, he just shot and killed it? I realize 11 months is many months removed from the purchase date but he could have taken it back to the breeder and asked for some of the money back. I don't think a reputable breeder would've refused a refund if they knew the alternative was to kill the poor pup. And not to generalize too much, but many farmers are just very black and white. Who knows what's going on in this farmer's head? But as someone already suggested, I would definitely let the community know this guy didn't have to kill your pup and that he doesn't have what it takes to get his dogs to work for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 It would be interesting to know the age and circumstance of lamb was it a new born or was it several months old the reason I say this is it may not have even been a case of chasing it down could have been a case of clean up as in a still born lamb or death at birth. As for the Border Collies attacking and chasing sheep even my Chihuahua will chase sheep if I let him No dog should be left unsupervised around livestock I have seen dogs that were used to chickens start chasing and killing when another dog started doing it. You are making a good point and this is something that had just occurred to me before I got back to read your response. Unless the pup has been seen to chase and attack the stock, and kill the lamb or another one, it is hard to say just what the actual circumstance was. Natural death, death by another predatory animal, a stillbirth, or any of a number of possible scenarios. There is an old saying about being guilty by association - the animal in question may be no more guilty than being the one found with the body. (The story is about mixed livestock and the decimation of formerly-productive land. First it supports cattle, sheep, and goats, until the land is overstocked and overgrazed to the point where the cattle can no longer be productive and survive, and so they are gone. The sheep and goats soldier on on what is left until it reaches a point that, again overstocked and overgrazed/browsed, the land can now no longer maintain sheep. And the goats are left with the meager remains of the once-productive and now virtually "dead" land. Who gets blamed for "killing" the land? The goats, of course, while they were simply the only species that was able to persist under the constant mismanagement by mankind.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 It would be interesting to know the age and circumstance of lamb was it a new born or was it several months old the reason I say this is it may not have even been a case of chasing it down could have been a case of clean up as in a still born lamb or death at birth. That was actually one of the first things I thought. If the farmer didn't actually see the dog chase and kill the lamb, he or she can't really be sure that's what happened. Yeah, I'd definitely be getting the word out about that person . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bordercollies Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Thanks a million everyone. I would have taken that pup back in a heartbeat. I am (to my family's absolute confusion) almost hyper aware of where my dogs are at any one moment. Someone leaves a gate open, you're going to hear it! I realize that with a reputation as a potential stock killer the pup might have been difficult to re-home to a working home, but I'm sure I could have found him a pet home or tried to get him into an agility family. If he's half as agile as his sister who lives with me, he would have made an excellent agility dog. Unfortunately I already have 5 dogs and if the drought we're experiencing at the moment doesn't break this year, I don't know where we're going next year. Thankfully there is not a lot of breeders of working dogs in our vicinity, but I will see about mentioning it to the vet. He knows everyone and is almost in the best place to warn other breeders. Will also ask SASDA is they have something like a "black list" or suggest that they create one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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