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Seeking a very specific kind of breeder- can anyone help?


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Wow. Am I the only one who noticed the OP is specifically looking to support the working border collie by going to a working breeder? They also expressed no interest in registering with the AKC, but even if they did there are plenty of people on these boards who do (or ILP) in order to compete in performance events, as like it or not the AKC has a monopoly on them, and I haven't seen them badgered and harassed like this. Christina has a point that the AKC does do quite a bit of lobbying for the breeder community and even the dog owning community in general so I completely get where they are coming from there. Disagree all you like but that isn't even the point of this thread. Again the OP is CHOOSING to support the border collie by going to a working breeder, are we just going to nit pick around that now?

 

I seriously have to wonder sometimes why there seems to be such a strong reaction a lot of the time when border collies as service dogs is brought up as a topic, there seems to be a lot of underlying resentment and disapproval. When I posted here looking for breeder reccomendations it was suggested that I choose another breed or even go to an AKC border collie breeder! I just don't understand the strong reaction the OP is getting, especially over desiring a breeder who does ENS, which most reputable service dog breeders do and obviously at least a couple working border collie breeders do as well. What is the big deal??

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And yes, I know exactly how you're going to respond to that. "But my issue with conformation dogs is that they aren't bred for work!"

........

 

Roll your eyes, stomp your feet, scream about how we don't need the AKC to defend our rights to breed dogs but in the end when they strip you of your ability to choose from the wide variety of dog breeders we have today please consider the fact that I warned you that this was going to happen.

........

But, in my humble opinion, refusing to side with the only superpower left on your team is arrogant, ignorant, and damning to dog breeding.

 

Until you step into the ring with the rest of us (please see the US Dog Laws or Animal Legislation Awareness groups on Facebook) you have absolutely no idea what we are actually up against nor can you conceive of how close we have come to losing these rights.

 

Careful about what you claim to know about me, my opinions, what I might or might not say in response to something and what I have or haven't been involved with.

 

I respectfully disagree that saying you don't think something would be a problem but that you would have to seriously consider it constitutes agreeing with a breeder's stipulation about breeding. But if you and the breeder who sells you a dog agree that it does, that's really all that matters.

 

Good luck to you with your search for your dog.

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Which breeds have not suffered from AKC? And I am singling out this statement only out of sheer curiosity!

 

Yes, why not require a good standard working achievement for high titles?

 

But here goes my example again with the German SV. DESPITE, mandatory health checks, pre titles and titles, the GSD has still been ruined to a large.extend by HUMANS that exploit a breed.

 

And by HUMANS that waiver on breeding solely to the original purpose. If you have never seen a true working dog work (not trial to any standard as even high standards are in my eyes still somewhat artificial) in it's original job, to earn a living (herding, hunting, guide dogs, drug dogs, security dogs) then you will never understand the passion. And by you, I refer to no one in particular. Yet it includes me as well.

 

And I believe that is at the bottom of the passion.

 

 

That depends entirely on how you define "suffered". There are numerous sighthound breeders who particpate in conformation and lure coursing with their dogs. Plenty of toy breeds are extremely functional from conformation litters. And there ARE hunting, herding, and livestock dogs that are able to do both. Want the names of breeds that haven't been ruined by conformation? Think of all the ones you don't hear about all the time.

 

The CH. title marks the dog as a conformation champion. I would be all for creating a new title to encompass working and conformation- but that would only work if one condoned breeding to fit a writtern standard which many of us (myself included) do not.

 

FWIW I have met many working dogs- hunting, herding, service dogs (I HAVE a service dog but he was not specifically bred as such), etc. I hold them in the highest regard.

 

Wow. Am I the only one who noticed the OP is specifically looking to support the working border collie by going to a working breeder?

 

THANK YOU. I was starting to wonder...

 

Careful about what you claim to know about me, my opinions, what I might or might not say in response to something and what I have or haven't been involved with.

 

I respectfully disagree that saying you don't think something would be a problem but that you would have to seriously consider it constitutes agreeing with a breeder's stipulation about breeding. But if you and the breeder who sells you a dog agree that it does, that's really all that matters.

 

Good luck to you with your search for your dog.

 

I don't claim to know anything about you. I suppose you can say I go by what I infer. ;)

 

You can disagree with what I meant all you want. In the end, I'm the one who said it so I do probably have a better grasp on what I meant than you do.

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I think everyone is clear that the OP initially stated she'd like to support a working breeder, but only one who practices ENS. She did say that she wouldn't require a strict ENS protocol but was rather dismissive of the typical way many of us raise our puppies, which is to expose them to the world in all it's textures, sound, colors, etc. (because apparently introducing puppies to varied surfaces that can be found around the home/farm isn't acceptable). I think many of the initial responses stated that the OP would likely exclude most well-respected working breeders because they don't practice ENS or some variant thereof. So while the OP says she wants to support a working breeder, her criteria pretty much exclude many working breeders.

 

And I'm sorry to say that although the AKC lobbies for dogs and dog people, it also lobbies for the continuation of puppy mills (because no doubt those registrations are a huge income source for AKC--sort of a conflict of interest, no?). Saying that one can/should overlook the bad because of some of the good an organization does is like saying that it's okay if an oil company spills millions of gallons of oil into the ocean because it also pays money to environmental causes. For some of us, some sort of consistency of philosophy is important, and IMO AKC does not show that consistency. Much of what they lobby for is to preserve their own income stream; it's just fortunate that in some cases that need parallels the needs of other dog owners.

 

Anyway, I don't see how it's nitpicking around the working breeder when it's fairly clear that most working breeders don't meet the OP's criteria as stated in her initial post and followed up on in subsequent post.

 

I also think it's possible that people remember other posts from Christina regarding wanting to breed for color. Remember the thread "Searching for a Foundation Bitch"?

 

I don't see some sort of bias against people who want service dogs. Then again I'm not looking for such bias. Much of this thread has had nothing to do with service dogs (except for the ENS criterion), so I'm not sure where you get the idea that everyone is anti-service dog. People are not getting upset over Christina looking for a breeder doing ENS; they have simply stated that there are very few who do. That's not the same as being anti-service dog.

 

J.

 

Wow. Am I the only one who noticed the OP is specifically looking to support the working border collie by going to a working breeder? They also expressed no interest in registering with the AKC, but even if they did there are plenty of people on these boards who do (or ILP) in order to compete in performance events, as like it or not the AKC has a monopoly on them, and I haven't seen them badgered and harassed like this. Christina has a point that the AKC does do quite a bit of lobbying for the breeder community and even the dog owning community in general so I completely get where they are coming from there. Disagree all you like but that isn't even the point of this thread. Again the OP is CHOOSING to support the border collie by going to a working breeder, are we just going to nit pick around that now?

I seriously have to wonder sometimes why there seems to be such a strong reaction a lot of the time when border collies as service dogs is brought up as a topic, there seems to be a lot of underlying resentment and disapproval. When I posted here looking for breeder reccomendations it was suggested that I choose another breed or even go to an AKC border collie breeder! I just don't understand the strong reaction the OP is getting, especially over desiring a breeder who does ENS, which most reputable service dog breeders do and obviously at least a couple working border collie breeders do as well. What is the big deal??

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Julie, I can't decide if you're the type of person who believes that everybody should change their mind to suit your whims or nobody should change their mind because that would make them inconsistent and you can't handle it.

Yes, I asked about breeding red Border Collies. It was a hypothetical question, my partner was more interested in the color than I was, and I gave up on it. Is that okay with you? Should I ask you next time I change my opinion on something? "I would love to find a breeder that makes nice working dogs that may double as service dogs but I need to be sure that Julie is okay with it."

 

I misused the term "ENS". Sue me. And no, simply exposing puppies to grass vs. cement is NOT the only requirement for raising a service dog. There are hundreds upon hundreds of different methods that service dog programs, breeders, and trainers use to acclimate service dog prospects to different sounds, textures, movements, and objects. Please please stick with what you know because as much as you claim that this isn't about a vendetta against service dogs it sure as heck seems like it is.

Fortunately I titled this "Seeking a very specific kind of breeder". The opporative word here is "specific".

And regarding the AKC, "puppy mill" and "backyard breeder" are not legally defined terms. Ban commercial breeders and you push breeding underground. Dogs suffer more. I'm too tired to explain this to somebody who is going to refuse to understand.

I don't even know why I'm still here having this argument. A breeder I really liked was recommended in the first page.

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Christina,

I don't give a rip whether you change your mind or not. When Flamingcomet decided to chastise the others who have posted for focusing on AKC or being anti-service dog or whatever, I simply pointed out that some of the reaction you got might be related to comments you have made in the past. If that offends you or her, so be it. People generally do base their current opinions on past experiences/nteractions with other people, so it shouldn't be surprising to you that some folks might do the same here, for you and any other person who posts.

 

When Flamingcomet chastised others for "ignoring" your desire to support a working breeder, I simply pointed out what others had already said: there aren't a lot of working breeders who meet your early developmental/exposure/whatever you want to call it criteria. That isn't a slam against you or any breeder or even service dogs--it's simply a statement of fact. If that offends you, well, sorry.

 

And please, seriously, point out the comments in this thread that are illustrative of a "vendetta against service dogs." All I see is people pointing out that not many working breeders are going to meet your criteria and that your ambivalence (at best) and support (at worst) of the AKC is liable to alienate at least some working breeders. I don't see how that is a vendetta against service dogs either. But then again, if you and Flamingcomet are determined to see something that isn't there, no one can stop you.

 

Good luck in your search. I have no doubt you'll find something that will suit you, whether the breeder is recommended by the people on this forum or not. I really never have understood people who ask for opinions and then get annoyed when the opinions they get don't line up with their own world view and so in turn start lashing out at the people who disagree. I think most adults should realize that the world doesn't work that way.

 

J.

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Julie when I talk about there being underlying resentment and disapproval of working bred border collies as service dogs (I never said anti service dog), I'm talking about the people who on this thread, and on my last thread, keep making comments like how we should find another breed, or in your case Julie, that I should go to an AKC conformation border collie breeder. Or people making a big deal about Christina wanting ENS to be performed. Several people even made comments like how this is "over-complicating" things or they don't understand why normal socialization isn't sufficient even when it has been explained several times why it is not. It just seems like the working border collie people don't want "their" dogs to be service dogs. It's very discouraging, I chose this breed because of their suitability to my disability, and IMO working bred border collies exemplify the characteristics I want. I'm not blind, I don't need a stoic lab or golden to guide me around, I have PTSD and need a dog that is independent thinking, intelligent, and intuitive. There simply is no better match. And yes it will be difficult to find a breeder who meets criteria typically desired in a service dog prospect, but it's worth it IMO to support what I think the border collie should be bred for, which is working ability, and I'm not just going to change my mind because people are saying not many breeders do this. I knew that when I chose this breed for this work.

 

Also I think it's worth mentioning since she is STILL getting crap for it, but Christina DID NOT bring up dual registration, stockdogranch did, and Christina replied, which then blew up into this. In fact she even stated a good reason (IMO) that she thinks not breeding to dual registered dogs (NOT registering the dogs with the AKC, or breeding to only AKC dogs BTW) may restrict the gene pool. She never expressed interest in registering with the AKC. This whole thing has gotten far out of hand just because she has a different opinion from the cliques of the board but when you look at what she's actually said it's not even that bad. I do understand what a lot of you are saying about dual registered dogs, I personally would not register with the AKC (maybe ILP if needed), but I think you are attacking the wrong person here. People are entitled to their own opinions and it doesn't seem like this opinion is hurting anything since as she said several times she has no intent to register with the AKC.

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Actually, Flamincomet, I did not bring up dual registration. In my post, #9, I just said that as a breeder I have a contract that states any pup I sell not be registered AKC, nor will it be bred to an AKC dog. In her post, #10, Christina then brought up the issue of dual registration, asking if I would have a problem with that. I responded that I did have a problem with dual registration. I said that for me, it is a deal-breaker,

A

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When I was looking for a pup, Dee Woessner was highly recommended by the Open level trial handler I was taking lessons from. I didn't end up getting a pup from her, just because of timing, but I did communicate with her quite a bit and was very impressed. She did do the ENS with her pups, and it sounded like they were extensively socialized. No breeding contract as I recall. I can't remember if she did any testing. And I don't remember exactly where she is, but I'm sure you can find her -- on the East Coast somewhere.

 

Best of luck.

Leslie

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"are you willing to sign a contract stating that you will not register the dog AKC or ever breed it to an AKC dog?"

 

That's a question about dual registration, which she answered. I don't think you brought it up as a topic purposefully, but Christina did not start this discussion and has asked several times for this thread to get back to the original topic

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Flamincomet,

I think wse are talking at cross-purposes here. I don't see people making a "big deal" of you or Christina wanting ENS or similar as part of what the breeder does when raising puppies. What people have said repeatedly is that there likely aren't a lot of working breeders who offer that. You found a couple who did. But a couple isn't a lot. Pointing out that working breeders who also provide ENS or similar for their pups are rare is NOT an example of "underlying resentment." At worst it's simply a lack of understanding of what's required to properly raise a puppy from day 1 for a future as a service dog, which of course likely isn't the focus of a typical working dog breeder. I don't think anyone has said that such an approach is senseless; they have simply noted that not a lot of working breeders do that sort of thing, and if ENS or similar is an important criterion (i.e., dealbreaker), it will be more difficult to find a working breeder. I don't see how such comments can be construed as being anti-service dog. Again, I think those comments are coming from a place of lack of understanding of the requirements for, but NOT resentment or dislike of service dogs. I really don't understand how people pointing out the practical considerations regarding the ease of finding breeders who breed exceptional stockworking dogs and also do all the things necessary for the development of a good service dog is a sign of underlying resentment.

 

FWIW, I imagine that not everyone who has responded here understands why normal socialization isn't sufficient, and since that hasn't been explained in this thread as far as I can tell, how would they know it's already been explained? And if they aren't aware it's already been explained (somewhere else?), how can you truly be offended by their comments?

 

As for changing your mind about what sort of dog you want, I'm sure you have good reasons for your choices. People pointing out the difficulty of meeting your requirements is simply people warning you of the difficulties of finding what you seek. That doesn't make them anti-you or anti-service dog--it makes them people who are trying to make sure you understand that what you seek won't necessarily be easy to find, if you are truly looking for a breeder of working dogs and not just someone who pays lip service to the breeding of working dogs. I suppose one can view people speaking openly and honestly about a situation as being unkind or hateful in some way, but you could also look at it as people trying to make sure that you don't get your hopes up about finding the near-impossible.

 

J.

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Quite frankly Border Collies are not the best overall choice for a service dog. If they were, service dog schools would utilize the breed. There is a reason they use Labs and Goldens so it's rational to think that people would suggest those breeds. And some working bred dogs are a bit much for the job, too. High energy dogs in service dog schools often get passed along as "career change" dogs. That isn't disapproval, it's simply stating the facts. Of course a BC certainly can do some service dog work very well and you know the type of dog that is best suited for you. But the more stipulations you place on it the more people will suggest a breed that seems to fit those stipulations.

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In general terms, Border Collies are not the best overall choice for a service dog. If they were, service dog schools would utilize the breed. There is a reason they use Labs and Goldens so it's rational to think that people would suggest those breeds. And some working bred dogs are a bit much for the job, too. High energy dogs in service dog schools often get passed along as "career change" dogs. That isn't disapproval, it's simply stating the facts. Of course a BC certainly can do some service dog work very well and you know the type of dog that is best suited for you. But the more stipulations you place on it the more people will suggest a breed that seems to fit those stipulations.

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There is no single breed that is best suited for service dog work.

Quite a few people in the service dog community use Border Collies and Border Collie mixes. My present SD is a Border Collie and he is fantastic at his job.

 

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More importantly, I'm not asking for advice on what breed I should choose as a service dog. I'm asking about Border Collie breeders.

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High energy dogs in service dog schools often get passed along as "career change" dogs. That isn't disapproval, it's simply stating the facts.

 

This may be the case with programs but you should be aware that in the United States (I don't know where you are located), owner training is growing in popularity and many of the people who choose to owner train do want an energetic driven breed. Unless you are a service dog trainer or particpate in a service dog program, I implore you to leave the facts to people who are actually doing those jobs. Border Collies DO make exceptional service dogs.

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Julie again I never said anyone was anti service dog so I would appreciate if you stopped saying that.

 

Again I'm going off what what I've seen here, as well as in my thread earlier in the year. In my thread several people commented that I should look into another breed (or show breeders) when I never asked for that opinion and have no intentions of doing that. In this thread it is more the apparent misunderstanding of why ENS is a very good idea for SD prospects, and the feeling I got from a couple of people was that someone wanting a working breeder to do this type of protocol was asking too much or over complicating things. All of this lends to the feeling that I described earlier, that while you all certainly aren't anti service dog, it seems like some of you think we would just be better off using a different breed or lines. Maybe you don't get that because you aren't the one using this breed for service work. I also don't think it is the intention of you all to give this impression but I ended up just getting very frustrated looking for advice on lines that match what I'm looking for and I get the idea that Christina may be as well. I'm certainly getting frustrated just reading this thread from the POV of someone also looking for a working breeder that may have a suitable SD prospect (though for me this is far off).

 

And no I didn't get into exact detail as to why normal socialization isn't preferable for SD prospects, though I did say a couple of times that it simply wasn't. I perhaps wrongly assumed people would infer that a dog who goes with their handler everywhere may need to be better suited to handle stress (a benefit of ENS) or be exposed early to things such as moving or unstable ground like they may encounter in an elevator or escalator.

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Maybe you don't get that because you aren't the one using this breed for service work. I also don't think it is the intention of you all to give this impression but I ended up just getting very frustrated looking for advice on lines that match what I'm looking for and I get the idea that Christina may be as well. I'm certainly getting frustrated just reading this thread from the POV of someone also looking for a working breeder that may have a suitable SD prospect (though for me this is far off).

 

 

And no I didn't get into exact detail as to why normal socialization isn't preferable for SD prospects, though I did say a couple of times that it simply wasn't. I perhaps wrongly assumed people would infer that a dog who goes with their handler everywhere may need to be better suited to handle stress (a benefit of ENS) or be exposed early to things such as moving or unstable ground like they may encounter in an elevator or escalator.

 

Yes, this! The SD community is (if you can believe it) even more judgement than...er...other dog related communities ;) and asking anything there about using a specific breed will get you a wide variety of answers. There is NOTHING wrong with having a preference. I personally don't like the "typical" SD breeds and choose to use what works for me rather than what everyone else seems to think should work for me. My life, my rules. I accept that finding a breeder might be difficult.

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This thread kind of reminds me of all the "Where do I find a working merle" threads.

 

Working Answer: there are not very many of them, hard to find, good ones don't breed very often and have their litters pre sold (and you get what you get and better be darn happy about it).....there are a lot of bad breeders who will give you lip service. You can't breed for work......as well as other non-working stuff. If you do, you are not breeding for work.

 

Poster: You're biased, you're anti-me, you're anti-merle, there are plenty of examples....I can think of two (plus a whole bunch of bad examples). You're mean people.

 

Working Answer: No, you are simply setting too many restrictions and criteria.....in addition to wanting a well bred working border collie. Something has to give...unless you give on some of your many criteria, then you are probably going to end up with something less than a well bred working dog. But, go ahead and prove us wrong....go find the dog you're looking for and then prove it's also a great working dog. Best of luck.

 

Truthfully, this might not be the place to get the advice you're looking for.....it's (as you say) very "specific" and outside the realm of most people's experience.

 

What I really don't understand is why you need to reserve the right to breed your service dog? And why you want to reserve the right to breed to a potentially dual registered AKC/ABCA dog? And why in a previous thread you were looking for a red foundation bitch.

 

You know many of us do more than expose our puppies to linoleum, grass and cement or let children play with them....many of our working puppies are hauled on numerous long road trips, many stops, many strangers, new every place we stop, many people, strange dogs, walks in the Walmart parking lot...etc.

 

Good luck! I love to hear of border collies being successful in other jobs and would love to hear more about the work your SD dog does. Maybe you could tell us about the characteristics of a SD border collie?

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I am very familiar with many service dog programs and SAR programs that use "career change" dogs. I have done a decent amount of research into the training of service dogs, owner trained dogs and service dog law in the states. I am also friends with folks that work for SD organizations and folks that have trained/use their own service dogs of a wide variety of breeds (one of which was a BC). I didn't mean to imply that a BC couldn't do the job - in fact I said the opposite. The point I was trying to make was that suggesting another breed does not mean that one is against using BCs as service dogs in response to Flamincomet's suggestion.

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This thread kind of reminds me of all the "Where do I find a working merle" threads.

 

Yes, because that's the exact same thing as asking for a working breeder who socializes thier puppies.

 

Working Answer: there are not very many of them, hard to find, good ones don't breed very often and have their litters pre sold (and you get what you get and better be darn happy about it).....there are a lot of bad breeders who will give you lip service. You can't breed for work......as well as other non-working stuff. If you do, you are not breeding for work.

 

Poster: You're biased, you're anti-me, you're anti-merle, there are plenty of examples....I can think of two (plus a whole bunch of bad examples). You're mean people.

 

This is unnecessarily cruel and not even close to what happened in this post. I hope you're proud of yourself.

 

 

Working Answer: No, you are simply setting too many restrictions and criteria.....in addition to wanting a well bred working border collie. Something has to give...unless you give on some of your many criteria, then you are probably going to end up with something less than a well bred working dog. But, go ahead and prove us wrong....go find the dog you're looking for and then prove it's also a great working dog. Best of luck.

 

So it's impossible to find a well socialized health tested working dog? You're not exactly giving the working dogs a good word with that one. And you wonder why people go to sport breeders over working breeders?

 

 

Truthfully, this might not be the place to get the advice you're looking for.....it's (as you say) very "specific" and outside the realm of most people's experience.

 

At least we agree on something.

 

 

What I really don't understand is why you need to reserve the right to breed your service dog?

 

There is a very very long list of reasons. But the primary one is exactly what you brought up. Obviously the kind of dog I want is impossible to find (your implication) so the next logical step would be to breed it myself.

 

Because I geniunely care about the breed I choose to not compromsie working ability to do this.

 

 

And why you want to reserve the right to breed to a potentially dual registered AKC/ABCA dog?

 

I'm not going over that again. If you're too lazy to read the rest of the thread please don't jump in and throw nonsense like this at me.

 

 

And why in a previous thread you were looking for a red foundation bitch.

 

See the previous question.

 

 

You know many of us do more than expose our puppies to linoleum, grass and cement or let children play with them....many of our working puppies are hauled on numerous long road trips, many stops, many strangers, new every place we stop, many people, strange dogs, walks in the Walmart parking lot...etc.

 

Which contradicts your statement that finding a well-socialized working dog is impossible. Which is it?

 

 

Good luck! I love to hear of border collies being successful in other jobs and would love to hear more about the work your SD dog does. Maybe you could tell us about the characteristics of a SD border collie?

 

At this point, I would be afraid to tell you anything.

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Christina,

I beleive several posters have tried to express the idea that many working bred pups are well socialized, as Elizabeth describes in her post (dragged everywhere, meeting lots of strangers, dogs, etc.), and so on only to have their suggestions dismissed because apparently that's not good enough (by you and Flamincomet).

 

You can't have it both ways. Either the typical good socialization that many working breeders do is acceptable or it is not. So far, both you and Flamincomet seem to be saying it is not, even though you haven't asked for specifics about how many working bred pups are raised. Instead you dismiss the whole idea as "being allowed on concrete or grass" as insufficient, despite people trying to explain that working bred pups (not all of them obviously, but certainly a good number) are generally exposed to much more than that (though probably not to specific protocols like ENS).

 

You cry foul over our suggestions when they don't meet your expectations and yet you are as guilty as anyone else here of taking an attitude that the rest of us are just too clueless to get it, since you both have implied as much repeatedly. You first mentioned ENS and then later said you had used the term incorrectly (or unnecessarily), and then when people suggested that perhaps what most working breeders to WRT socialization might be good enough, you poo-ppoed that idea. So which is it?

 

And no, most of us don't know the specific requirements that Flamincomet says should be left to "those who know." If you want suggestions that are useful, then instead of responding to questions with "leave it to those who know," how about explaining what is really needed? How can you expect people to offer meaningful suggestions if you refuse to explain what the specific needs really are? How can you be surprised that people are getting frustrated with you both when you keep naysaying suggestions and comments without giving any of us a real idea of what is needed in the socialization of a potential service dog pup?

 

If we're accusing people of closed ears and closed minds, I think there's some of that happening on both sides of this discussion.

 

Flamincomet,

I sort of fail to understand how your comments about the "rest of us" being resemtful of service dogs every time they're mentioned on this forum as NOT implying (or outright stating) that the rest of us are anti-service dog. I have a friend who uses a border collie as a service dog (although because she has some balance issues, she's planning for her next dog to be a bigger breed), and I understand why some people would want to train their own service dogs, although that brings up the whole issue folks out there claiming to have service dogs who are just using the designation to gain access to locations their dogs normally wouldn't be allowed to go (and i imagine this could be the very issue behind any skepticism you may encounter, though I don't think anyone here has ever suggested that people shouldn't train their own service dogs). I just get the feeling that you're interpreting any difficulty anyone points out as being an example of resentment and an anti-SD attitude when that's simply not the case.

 

J.

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Christina way back in the beginning of this thread I suggested you contact someone who has been through the process of finding a working Border Collie breeder to obtain a service dog, Carol Lee Benjamin.

 

Have you asked her for help?

 

I wonder if she goes into this in her and Denise Wall's book Do Border Collies Dream of Sheep where she and Denise write about their pups from the same litter one becoming a service dog the other a working sheepdog.

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Julie, at no point have I suggested that what working breeders do isn't enough. If I did believe that I wouldn't be looking to buy a puppy. I HAVE asked breeders what their protocal is so I will know whether it IS enough.

 

Now I'm really sick of you putting words in my mouth and taking things I say out of context so you can drag it through the mud and shame me once again for asking for specifics so please oh please stop posting on this thread if you have nothing to contribute. It doesn't seem like you are interested in anything but putting me and flamincomet down. Kindly go do something else Julie. Would you do that?

 

Mark, I haven't contacted her yet but will do so shortly. Thank you!

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Wow, the rudeness astounds me. :blink: As someone just following along, I agree wholeheartedly with Julie's last post. I don't get the impression that ANYONE is anti-service dog, or anti-service dog training, etc. But, with the attitude going on here, nobody is going to learn anything from anyone else, which is a shame.

 

I don't know if it belongs here, or if someone would start a new thread, but I'm curious about service dogs, training, upbringing, etc. What *needs* to be done differently in the first 8 weeks of life to make a dog a good candidate for becoming a service dog? I've actually been wondering since another recent thread, where someone wanted to get a puppy for a companion and possible future self-trained SD, and it was said that a puppy from a rescue situation wouldn't be a good idea. And I was wondering, even an 8 week old puppy who'd been born into rescue, or come into rescue at a few weeks old? Just something I was thinking about, and now it comes up here again! That what we consider "normal" puppy-raising and socialization isn't enough for future service dogs. Since any training happens well after 8 weeks when a puppy typically comes home with new owners, what special things need to be done before that?

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