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Seeking a very specific kind of breeder- can anyone help?


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Good morning,
I have been searching high and low for a breeder that I can buy a dog from next year but am having a hard time finding one that has everything I'm looking for.

So far this is the criteria I have listed:

-Anywhere in the United States or Canada.

-Breeds working dogs.

-Provides early neurological stimulation and socialization for puppies.

-Will allow me to be "involved" (stay in contact with me) with the litter from the day they are born onward. Will keep me updated on puppy personalities.
-Tests hips and eyes.

-Will not make me sign a spay/neuter contract. Gives buyers the option to breed their dogs later on if the dog is a good prospect. A breeding contract is okay but NO co-ownership.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

I would like the dog for trialing and use as a service dog, hence the need for ENS.

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Are each of those criteria a line in the sand for you?

 

Your difficulty finding a breeder may be related to your specific expectations on those criteria, particularly the combination of bullets 2-4. Personally, I think the biggest challenge you will have is finding a breeder of good working dogs who follows a specific ENS protocol (nearly every breeder of working border collies with whom I am familiar does extensive socialization with their puppies, but they typically don't follow a prescribed protocol).

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Are each of those criteria a line in the sand for you?

 

Your difficulty finding a breeder may be related to your specific expectations on those criteria, particularly the combination of bullets 2-4. Personally, I think the biggest challenge you will have is finding a breeder of good working dogs who follows a specific ENS protocol (nearly every breeder of working border collies with whom I am familiar does extensive socialization with their puppies, but they typically don't follow a prescribed protocol).

 

It doesn't have to specifically be ENS protocol but some kind of early socialization would be preferable.

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I don't think all of those criteria sound unreasonable, particularly if you don't insist on a specific protocol of early socialization. My only question would be, as far as future breeding, are you willing to sign a contract stating that you will not register the dog AKC or ever breed it to an AKC dog?

A

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I don't think all of those criteria sound unreasonable, particularly if you don't insist on a specific protocol of early socialization. My only question would be, as far as future breeding, are you willing to sign a contract stating that you will not register the dog AKC or ever breed it to an AKC dog?

A

 

I can't imagine that would be a problem but I would have to give it some serious thought. I don't hate the AKC as much as many ABCA supporters do. I don't particularly have a problem with either registry.

 

Are we talking no breeding to dual registered dogs too or just no breeding to dogs registered with the AKC but no the ABCA? I feel like the former restricts the gene pool unnecessariy.

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For me, dual registrsation would be a deal breaker. I simply do not want my dogs to go into that gene pool. I feel that I breed a top quality working dog. I do test hips and eyes, and socialize my pups like crazy, but I do not want them anywhere near the AKC. Now, having said that, while I would rather no money at all go to the AKC, if I have bred a dog and someone spays or nueters it and then gets an ILP # so they can do AKC events, I don't freak out. I would rather they not do that, but sometimes people can only get to whatever activites they can get to, and if AKC is it, so be it.

 

As for "restricting the gene pool," there are SO many nice ABCA (or CBCA or ISDS) dogs out there to choose from, I see no need to lower one's standards by going anywhere near the AKC bred/registered dogs.

 

An admitted elitist as far as border collies go,

A

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I'm not a breeder, nor do I intend to breed my dogs (and one is already neutered), but I want to applaud Anna's position. A breeder who dual registers their own dogs is definitely a deal-breaker *for me* - I have zero interest in such a pup. In an ideal world I'd be happier to see anyone who breeds ABCA-registered pups to follow Anna's stance.

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I guess I still don't understand why dual registration is considered a problem. Suppose a handler wants to do agility with their dog but doesn't like the CPE or USDAA rules compared to AKC. This dog is an extraordinary working dog and has placed several times in USBCHA trials but also does a little agilty on the side.

What's so bad about that?

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Christina,

Did you read the following on Creekside's website?

 

"Spay and Neuter: It is our goal to keep our carefully bred working dogs' bloodlines undiluted by "show" and/or "sport" lines, therefore every puppy from Creekside who’s future includes anything but a focus on stock work MUST be spayed or neutered at a suitable age*. (RARE exceptions will be made for talented working dogs who may also wish to compete in other dogsports.) In addition, the AKC/CKC herding programs do NOT, in our opinion, test the ultimate abilities of a well bred working Border Collie. Supplemental Spay/Neuter agreements or Breeding Agreements will be added to the standard Puppy Contract."

 

They do say they'll make the rare exception, but it's worth noting that they don't want intact dogs registered with or producing AKC/CKC pups.

 

In response to your question "What's so bad about that?" my opinion is that if you are putting money in AKC coffers for any reason you are tacitly agreeing with the things the AKC stands for, and you are helping them continue to take the border collie (and other breeds) down the path of no return. Like Anna, I understand that someone might want to choose AKC agility, but if that's the case, I think it should be done with a spayed/neutered dog. I just had that very question asked of me about a dog I might place, and my answer was that although I did not prefer that (dual registering the dog), because the dog would not be breedable, I wouldn't object greatly. (That is, I told the person I would prefer that dual registration not happen, but since AKC pups couldn't be produced/registered it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. especially when looking to place a dog in a good forever home.) It's really a matter of principle when it comes down to whether my dogs' genetics will be used to produce KC-registered pups, and I couldn't agree with that, ever.

 

J.

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As I said, my position is just that--*my* position. It's really a philosophical decison on my part after having seen a number of things that I consider wrong with the AKC.

 

Have you read "The Dog Wars" by Donald McCaig (Outrun Press, 2007 I believe is the date)? That may shed some light. Another enlightening experience might be "Pedigree Dogs Exposed." It is a British documentary made a few years back; it is available on Youtube, as far as I last checked. It looks at Kennel Clubs (whether it's the British version or the AKC--same difference) and the practices they condone.

 

I would hope that you might look further into this issue, but if you don't, as already noted by the handy links provided, there is always someone out there who will sell a dog to anyone for any reason--no questions asked.

 

When the AKC first recognized the border collie (I believe it was in 1994), I remember being told that they would keep the stud books open for 3 years. Well, guess what? They are *still* open. As far as I can see, the AKC has done nothing good for *any* breed of dog, but my particular issue (since I can't save the whole world) is with the working border collie. I've reached an age where I try as hard as I can to stand up for and live my life according to my convictions for those things I feel strongly about. And keeping the breeding of border collies in the hands of those who truly have the best interests of the breed at heart is one of those things,

A

 

ETA: I see while I was composing that Julie read through the Creekside site farther than I did. Good for Creekside!!

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Christina,

Did you read the following on Creekside's website?

 

"Spay and Neuter: It is our goal to keep our carefully bred working dogs' bloodlines undiluted by "show" and/or "sport" lines, therefore every puppy from Creekside who’s future includes anything but a focus on stock work MUST be spayed or neutered at a suitable age*. (RARE exceptions will be made for talented working dogs who may also wish to compete in other dogsports.) In addition, the AKC/CKC herding programs do NOT, in our opinion, test the ultimate abilities of a well bred working Border Collie. Supplemental Spay/Neuter agreements or Breeding Agreements will be added to the standard Puppy Contract."

 

They do say they'll make the rare exception, but it's worth noting that they don't want intact dogs registered with or producing AKC/CKC pups.

 

 

 

I'll get to the rest of your post in a minute, but my understanding of that sentence is very different. I took that to mean that they don't condone breeding solely because your dog excels at AKC herding- which is completely understandable. I plan on trialing in USBCHA. They have a "how-to" on registering your dog with the AKC on their site as well.

 

It doesn't really matter since I have no need for AKC registeration.

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Reg. the AKC

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Pedigree Dogs Exposed is a terrible source as that documentary was extremely biased.

 

I don't blame a registry for the actions of their breeders- it is the breeders who do unethical things that are to blame. It is just as difficult for a registery to regulate breeders as it is for the government to regulate breeders which is why neither is presently being accomplished, though the government is giving it a good swing with the new (stupid) APHIS proposal.

I have also read The Dog Wars.

I personally think it's a good thing the stud books are still open. Technically it's the same case with the ABCA. You can still ROM a dog and that is fantastic.

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An open stud book basically means the AKC is stealing the information on the ABCA pedigree and assimilating it into their database. That takes a few key strokes.

 

Knowing what the first ROM'd dog had to accomplish ( and owning a granddaughter) to be considered worthy enough to be considered for registration in the ABCA does in no way equate.

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I'm totally with Anna in this. I disagree so wholeheartedly with ACK (not a typo) recognition of border collies for conformation (I was around and active during earlier years of the Dog Wars) that I wouldn't give the ACK a penny for anything to do with a border collie, even to the point that if it were the only game in town, I just wouldn't play.

 

And I also agree with Toney. The stud book remains open because the ACK can't register enough Barbie Collies to create a viable gene pool to close it. It is in no way comparable to registering a dog on merit. They'll accept anything, with merit or without. It's a tacit admission of their utter failure to co-opt the breed.

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Not to mention their explicit and tacit support for puppy mills, whose numerous registrations help fill the AKC pockets....

 

Agree to disagree if you'd like. If you can't see how AKC and the breeders it "supports" through registration are quickly able to ruin breeds, including the border collie, then no amount of discussion here will help to change your mind. Don't expect most of the people who really care about the working border collie to understand your belief that the fault lies solely with breeders. The breeders breed to standards that are endorsed, either directly or indirectly, by the overarching organization--that is, the AKC. Breeders breed to standards that are set by AKC judges, who are AKC members. You can't say the fault lies in one sector. It's all interconnected. Even if you just hover around the periphery and don't ever put your dog in a bench show, you are STILL giving the "machine" what it needs to continue to live and grow: your $$.

 

Go watch some AKC (conformation-bred) dogs working stock. You say you want an excellent working dog. Why would you want to be a part of an organization whose whole history points to NOT maintaining the very traits that make a border collie a border collie.

 

Frankly, these discussions just sadden and disappoint me. I wish you well, but I do wish you'd try to understand that there are good reasons why many of us with working dogs we count on are anti-AKC.

 

J.

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