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First time BC owner needs help understanding two habits


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Hello fellow Border Collie lovers!

 

I'm just going to start by apologizing that I'm another newbie who's going to post asking for advice, but I have read through so many threads that now I feel like I have too many competing ideas floating around my head.

 

I am 22 and Addison is my first dog on my own. I know a Border Collie is a bold choice for a first dog, but I have a lot of time to devote to her, previous experience with dogs, and the commitment to work with her. Plus I found her on craigslist and felt responsible for taking care of her so she didn't end up with someone less capable! I had been looking for a dog for a while and found a college kid's add for her on craigslist. He had gotten her before he had an apartment and only had her for two weeks before he signed a new lease that didn't allow dogs.....idiotic, but none the less he needed her gone by the end of the day. He told me that she is "probably" a Border Collie Sheltie mix, but he wasn't sure because he had bought her from someone who rescued dogs from Amish farms.

 

So far, I think he's correct. Addie has the body of a Sheltie and a coat that looks like it could be a cross between Sheltie and Smooth coated Border- longer than a smooth coated, but shorter and less silky than a rough coated border. Addison is 10 months, 28lbs and stands just below my knee. She has extremely long legs, and a long face like a Sheltie but the coloring of a Border and definitely the temperament!

 

Addie is everything you could hope for in a BC. She is inquisitive, aware, playful, sweet and devoted. She is the sweetest, most quiet, most loving and attentive dog I've ever met - when people meet her they are basically mesmerized by her soft, expressive eyes. She has the BC stare and is very chatty but pretty much only with me. She was surprised/afraid of anything unfamiliar when I first got her and would bark and bark until I could get her to investigate it. She still does this rarely, but she is much more confident and less skiddish. She doesn't crouch like I had expected, but from what I understand not 100% of BCs do. Since she's from an Amish farm she may not even be mixed at all - who knows.

 

I've definitely found that mental games and human interaction wear her out much better and faster than anything physical so I try to do both every day. As far as mental games go, Addie really enjoys anytime I hide something - especially treats inside of something. She loves to guess which of the three cups a treat is under when I shuffle them around. She loves to try and guess where I'm going to through her ball and to follow me around the house. I've never seen her as tired as after we take a walk down a really busy street or to the quad on my campus because there's so much to see and so many people to meet. It also only took me a couple months to realize that she's probably not a dog park kind of dog. Like the other BCs on this thread, she is very choosy about who she deems worthy of friendship. At the park she often acts as the "fun police" and comes home more wound up that before we left.

 

Addie has an alpha dog personality and always wants to be top dog in a group. Only on a couple occasions have I seen her take spot number two and that's my parents labradoodle and my boyfriends parents dogs. Both occasions involved her and I visiting someone's house where there already was an alpha dog and an extensive introduction among the dogs where I had to have Addison lie on her back and let the other dogs sniff her. She's occasionally stubborn when it comes to me giving her commands, but it's becoming less frequent as I'm strict about being top dog. I'm starting to think it may just be a teenage phase.

 

Sorry for the extensive description I'm just hoping the more you know the better you can help! Now for the two behaviors I'm having a hard time understanding and choosing a method of training her on!

 

1. She barks out the window constantly and excessively/loudly. I have read that this could mean she isn't stimulated/exercised enough at home and that could be true..but more than anything it seems like she has chosen the job of guard dog and is taking it very seriously. She hears and sees things I've never noticed and makes sure I notice them! I've tried a couple different things - telling her off the couch or away from the window and making her sit until she relaxes then allowing her to return - just recently I started going over to the window letting her know I see what it is and then giving her an end command. Both work to get her to stop barking in the moment, but neither has taught her to stop or at least limit her barking overall. She will bark at something in the street endlessly unless I give her a command or come to the window and even then she's really reluctant to stop.

 

2. She's a nightmare on her leash. And I don't mean tugging which she does, but we've made a lot of progress towards heeling recently so I'm not so worried. Anytime she sees another dog she goes completely insane - lunging, growling, barking like a maniac. Usually she spends a couple minutes intently watching the dog - her posture will be alert but not aggressive at first. Sometimes she will even sit and wait for them to pass - which I think is because she knows she must sit in order to get anything she wants (not that I give her everything she wants, but I only ever allow her to do things once she sits first) I also taught her to do this when there are too many people walking by. I live in Chicago so sometimes there's a stroller, a kid on a scooter and two parents all on one side walk and I find it a lot easier to just take a step aside and have Addie sit and wait for them to pass. The only problem is a lot of fellow dog owners think this is a sign or her being very friendly and well behaved..only to realize once they get too close that she's a maniac who wants to literally murder their dog. Here's the issue - I can't decide if it's fear aggression or just straight up aggression. At first I was all about strict discipline and it only kind of worked like she knew she had done something bad but it seemed as though she cared about the job more than anything. Recently I've switched to a baiting/distracting tactic. I also read that she could be picking up on my fear/tension so now when we're walking and she sees a dog approaching, I'll use a soft happy voice and say something like "Addie who is that? is that a puppy friend? look at that friend!" (dont laugh haha) it seems to help especially combined with a happy, comforting but very rushed passing by the dog.

 

I guess I'm looking for advice because like a typical BC she learned everything so quickly and I feel like I've got to be doing something wrong, or at least not good enough, if I still haven't been able to discourage her from starting these two behaviors. Like I said I've gotten pretty good at getting her to stop once she starts, but is there hope that someday she just won't start? Ideally I would like to absolutely eliminate the walking problem - Chicago is a busy city and I want to be able to walk my pup in peace! I understand that the barking out the window might not be able to be completely eradicated and I don't mind, but if I could just get it to a couple, not so intense, warning barks I would be so pleased.

 

I'm open to anything and everything, but mainly looking sincere, helpful, friendly advice. I'm sure I've exposed some of my BC ignorance or just naivety in my post, but if you could just be kind I would really appreciate it. Thank you!

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I see you've gotten a number of views but no responses, so maybe I can get the ball rolling by saying, "Welcome!" This is a great resource for all things relating to Border Collies (not "Borders", please - if you have to shorten, the proper term really is "collie", but all the Lassie-lovers will disagree :P ).

 

Thank you for giving a home to Addison who really needed one and who seems to have lucked out in finding you - you seem to be very intelligent about much of your approach to working with her and trying to deal with problems that are all too normal among dogs of any age who have not learned better manners and being calm in certain circumstances.

 

As for wanting to be "top dog" - I think most dogs would *like* to be top dog but it's a smart dog that realizes when it is not their turn to be, such as when visiting another dog on its own home territory. There's nothing wrong with her being submissive in that situation. And she is certainly right in the middle of the teenage months, and that is often reason for a number of things, like her going from being obedient to being a bit reluctant to do what you ask her to do. Doesn't matter if we are talking dogs or humans, the teenage phase can be tough!

 

As for the window - you say she gets on the couch to look out and bark. Would part of the solution be as simple as moving the couch so that she is not able to look out the window, at least to the level where she can see passersby? If not, can you put a surface on the couch that would prevent her from getting on it? Products are made for that purpose although it can be tedious to put them on and take them off. Or, at least, could you utilize something like that when you are not at home if she is not crated, to keep her off the couch? Which brings up the question (and I don't know if you answered it), is she home a bit without company and able to continue/reinforce/self-reward with this behavior when she's alone and bored?

 

Many dogs have issues when walking on leash. I think that a lot of dogs (on leash, in the car, in the house, in the yard, even in the crate or otherwise restrained) tend to be reactive because they feel uneasy being restrained. They do not have the freedom to meet-and-greet the way they and the other dogs would naturally if all were not restrained. And many dogs that may not be reactive when someone or a dog approaches and passes by, may react as soon as that dog appears to "retreat" - and, oh boy, the barking worked because the person/dog left!

 

Teaching her to focus on you (as you are doing) and redirecting her interest and energy (as you are doing) are vital parts of teaching her that she can approach (or be approached), pass (or be passed), and leave (or be left) and it's all okay and you are more interesting anyway. It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right, even the silly voice - but make sure to make it more calming and relaxing rather than exciting, because you want her to feel calm and relaxed vibes coming from you, not excitement or anything she could construe as anxiety. They do pick up on our feelings, particularly through our voices and body language.

 

I am sure others with chime in with excellent, specific advice for you. There are many well-qualified people here who have experienced the same things you are experiencing, and have overcome (or learned to manage) those problems. You may also want to try the "search" function (either in this general section or the next section down dealing with obedience) to find topics that address these issues.

 

Very best wishes!

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Thank you so much! It's nice to hear I'm doing a lot of things right! I guess it's just natural for a first time "mom" to second guess themself haha a couple clarifications in case any body else chimes in and is wondering too.

 

-she's crated when I'm not home so the issue is just that I'm always running to the window to stop her. We live on the second floor and we are going to move our couch soon but even then she's tall enough to see the street. maybe ill invest in one of those blinds that covers the bottom half of the window! thank you so much for the idea.

 

-as for the alpha dog at other people's houses, I meant to convey that we basically had to force her to be submissive, but whether I had to help her or not, I guess I should just be happy she did it!

 

Really thank you though it was very helpful Sue!

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Last things first - I would never "force" a dog to be submissive to another dog. That can be very counterproductive. The best way to take your dog to someone else's place and introduce the dogs (unless you know the dog you are visiting is very accepting of "guest" dogs), is to make the introduction on more neutral ground - not in the house, for sure, and maybe not even in the yard or immediate environs.

 

I've had a few rescue transport dogs that spent anything from overnight to about a week here, and I found that I was most successful introducing them to our pack of three but doing so smartly - not in the house, one at a time, and without creating situations that would cause friction.

 

For instance, we made the mistake last time (coming home on the heels of Hurricane Sandy and our accompanying snowstorm), of letting Ed come out to the car (which I got stuck in the snow) and making a fuss over the rescue dog - while two of the three dogs (the ones who hadn't been on the trip with me) watched him from the window - fussing over and making a big deal of a *strange dog* in their yard. That did not work out well as one of our dogs, the one who is particularly devoted to Ed, never did like or trust the rescue dog. Had we made proper introductions, outside, one at a time, I doubt we would have had the same issues.

 

And if you go to visit and the dogs don't find themselves getting along (most do if they are well-socialized and each respects the other's personal space and wishes), instead of imposing "submission" on one, just manage - separate if needed, remember to have your dog focus on you, divert the dog with obedience (sits, stays, downs, tricks, whatever), and give any tension time to dissipate.

 

Some dogs will just never really get along enough to become "friends" but they can learn to peaceably cohabit an area at least for a visit if they have been well-socialized.

 

Best wishes!

 

PS - I'm not sure why others haven't chimed in with better and more specific advice and I'm hoping that they will. We have some really good resources here. Holiday weekend and all?

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I think holiday weekend, the boards were acting funny yesterday for a short period of time, and there was a lot to respond to. Welcome hr3191! I strongly recommend Emma Parsons' book Click to Calm which is marketed towards aggressive dogs but is a fantastic clicker primer and the techniques work for a variety of issues. My Sheltie was an alarm barker on walks, at pretty much anything she saw. Within a few days of my using the techniques in that book, she was ignoring people and animals (unless they were running directly towards her) and looking at me. I used the word "yes" rather than a clicker and used a portion of her kibble as treats. You will have a challenge keeping her below threshold since you are in a city, so I suggest using treats she is crazy about.

 

Tell clueless people, especially those with overly friendly dogs that she is nervous, doesn't like other dogs, you are training her, all those things or whatever you think will keep them away. I don't like to say my opinionated Lhasa is mean because he isn't really and if he did snap, I don't want people saying he's dangerous or bad. It really comes down to how you say it rather than what you say. I remain pleasant but extremely clear my dog doesn't want to make friends. Life goes on.

 

I agree with Sue about not forcing your dog into a submissive position when visiting. I actually like a lot of what Cesar Milan has to say, but when people try to do what he does "at home" it can be a mess. I find the best way to introduce dogs is through an activity like walking together. I would be careful about dog parks because there are so many idiot owners out there and your girl may not really want to play with most dogs. It could be very stressful for her. Quinn has a number of dog pals he played with as a pup, but now, other than enthusiastic greetings when they get together and maybe romping a bit, they all want to play fetch with the humans. I think their enjoyment is heightened by the "party" and they have a great time with no hard feelings about different play styles.

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I suggest you go to shirleychong.com as well as Sue Ailesbury's website and read what they have to say. I would also get a collapsible chair, a chair, a leash, treats and a clicker (last is optional) and then find a local dog park. You are not going inside.

 

Take your dog to the dog park where dogs will be racing around, barking their fool heads off, etc. Find a place far enough that your dog can watch without going insane, sit down with her/him and read your book. Gradually move closer while reading your book, and click your dog for relaxing/downing/watching/being quiet -- whatever your criteria are. If you want you can add working on command to your criteria before moving closer.

 

You can also do the same with playgrounds and nutso children, baseball games, etc Expose her gradually to what she can tolerate and SLOWLY move closer. The websites I have cited go into lots of detail on creating a dog that has self-control and self-regulation, and I' ve learned so much off them. But giving your dog self-control and reslience are probably the best things you can teach her.

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Addie has an alpha dog personality and always wants to be top dog in a group. Only on a couple occasions have I seen her take spot number two and that's my parents labradoodle and my boyfriends parents dogs. Both occasions involved her and I visiting someone's house where there already was an alpha dog and an extensive introduction among the dogs where I had to have Addison lie on her back and let the other dogs sniff her. She's occasionally stubborn when it comes to me giving her commands, but it's becoming less frequent as I'm strict about being top dog. I'm starting to think it may just be a teenage phase.

 

Hi and welcome.

 

I agree with what the others have said.

 

Try not to think about your relationship with your dog and her relationship with other dogs in such confrontational terms.

 

Very few dogs have an "alpha dog personality" and those that do do not normally need to indulge in displays of aggression to get their way. A true "alpha" dog is confident and from your description Addie sounds anything but confident. "Alpha" status doesn't even exist in wolf packs in the way that used to be believed and dogs are certainly not wolves.

 

This is a simple explanation -

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

 

The link on the left to the article on social interaction is also useful.

 

Dogs will do what it takes to get what they want and what is important will differ from dog to dog and situation to situation.

 

For example, I had a dog that none of my others ever messed with; a look from him was enough. However, he wasn't much interested in toys and my most submissive dog could take a toy off him any time he wanted.

 

You are not a dog so you cannot be "top dog". Your dog knows that. What you can be is the person with the bigger brain and control of the resources the dog wants or needs. You can use those to your advantage when training your dog to create a partnership rather than a relationship where you feel the need to keep control in case your dog gets too uppity. Work with her rather than against her.

 

The language we use very much affects the way we think and potentially confrontational language can lead to misinterpretation of her behaviour. I'd suggest reading up on canine body language.

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I think holiday weekend, the boards were acting funny yesterday for a short period of time, and there was a lot to respond to. Welcome hr3191! I strongly recommend Emma Parsons' book Click to Calm which is marketed towards aggressive dogs but is a fantastic clicker primer and the techniques work for a variety of issues.

 

I will sound like a broken record, but my preferred book is Control Unleashed (the new puppy version), I really didn't agree with a lot of Parson's book (sorry Shetlander). The exercises teach her how to have self control and you how to help her. Its a great book, I recommend it for so many people.

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No problem, rushdoggie! Lots of people swear by Control Unleashed. I just couldn't get into it myself and have had great success with Click to Calm's approach for a number of things. There is more than one way to train dogs. That is part of what makes it so fun. Maybe someday, I will find CU useful too. :)

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Also, on the barking front -- you might want to consult some Sheltie lists if you think your dog is part Sheltie. They are pretty notorious for barking. My suggestion there is to teach her a go-to-crate or go-to-mat command paired with lots of opportunity to chew. My young dogs all have their adult teeth but still really like to chew nonetheless and it seems to relax them and help them settle quietly.

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I used positive reinforcement for my nuisance barking Sheltie. I gave her small treats when she stopped barking when I told her to or pulled herself off the start of a barking jag (jackpot and celebration). I also used negative punishment, which in her case was bringing her in from her beloved backyard where she did her worst barking. I also managed her better and stopped allowing her access to the yard unless I was home to monitor her barking (I used to have a dog door). Barking is extremely self-reinforcing to many dogs and especially Shelties. It is important not to let them self-reward.

 

Between positive reinforcement and better management, Sassy went from a terrible barker to my quietest dog. And she did it very quickly after years of practicing Wall of Sound barking despite my ineffectual attempts to punish her (scolding and even a no bark collar). I was embarrassed that it took me so long to figure out an effective way of handling the barking. People were amazed at the difference in her.

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No problem, rushdoggie! Lots of people swear by Control Unleashed. I just couldn't get into it myself and have had great success with Click to Calm's approach for a number of things. There is more than one way to train dogs. That is part of what makes it so fun. Maybe someday, I will find CU useful too. :)

 

I'm not a huge fan of CU either, mostly because it isn't easy for the average person to put into practice.

 

I found Click to Calm more straightforward, although I have to say that I didn't find much in it that was new to me.

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I found Click to Calm more straightforward, although I have to say that I didn't find much in it that was new to me.

I had done clicker training for a while but for some reason was stymied by the walk issues, so it was a huge help for me. I also think it is a great intro to people wanting to take a clicker approach but are new or unsure about the method. That is one reason I recommend it so much. The author was on dogread and very helpful when my new problem with Sassy was she stared at me the entire walk. Even the sitter complained about this when she took her for walks . :lol: Emma had me mark and treat the second Sassy's eyes flickered away from me. This worked quickly and she figured out to only look at me when people/animals came our way.

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I had done clicker training for a while but for some reason was stymied by the walk issues, so it was a huge help for me. I also think it is a great intro to people wanting to take a clicker approach but are new or unsure about the method. That is one reason I recommend it so much. The author was on dogread and very helpful when my new problem with Sassy was she stared at me the entire walk. Even the sitter complained about this when she took her for walks . :lol: Emma had me mark and treat the second Sassy's eyes flickered away from me. This worked quickly and she figured out to only look at me when people/animals came our way.

 

 

Agreed this was a good part...I think I was fairly turned off by some of the info re: fearful aggressive dogs which was 180 degrees from what I was taught by the vet behaviorist and trainer I worked with. So my take on the rest of the book was colored by that.

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Agreed this was a good part...I think I was fairly turned off by some of the info re: fearful aggressive dogs which was 180 degrees from what I was taught by the vet behaviorist and trainer I worked with. So my take on the rest of the book was colored by that.

 

I'm intrigued. What had you been told?

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I'm intrigued. What had you been told?

 

Its more complicated than a sentence or two I can type here (and veering off topic), and I gave away the book, but as I recall she suggested a lot of things that would put a dog way over threshold, and that is not helpful to a fear aggressive reactive dog.

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Hi there! Welcome to the boards.

You've gotten good advise here, so I'll just throw in my two bits. I can't help on the leash problem, but I have a couple other thoughts. Coming from an "Amish farm" probably means she came from a puppy mill, so some of her behaviors could result from living in crowded kennel conditions without proper socialization. Barking from the window could mimic barking in whatever kennel situation she once had.

Okay, the dominance thing. Never EVER roll her on her back to submit to another dog. Stop that forever. This is teaching her that she can't trust you when she meets strange dogs, because you're just going to push her into a totally vulnerable, helpless position. How would you feel if you were pushed onto your back on the floor and held there every time you met total strangers? You could inadvertently be reinforcing the stress and anxiety of meeting other dogs, and could even encourage her to become a fear-biter - whether she bites you, another dog, or someone else is up for grabs.

Either introduce her to other dogs in a quiet, neutral setting or remove her from the situation. Forcing submission teaches stress and fear, not how to be calm and courteous with other dogs. Plus, if the dog park only brings her home more hyped up, stop going there until you and she have better communications.

As for the barking out the window thing, I'll echo what others have said: can you move the couch? If not, mine may not be a very popular option, and I don't know how sensitive she is, but is she's really that obsessive about the window-barking, ... what about swatting with a newspaper? What about shaking a penny can and bellowing NO? Unless a dog is apt to be shattered by a correction like that, I have no problems with making an ugly, obsessive behavior more trouble than it's worth.

I'm not a big meanie, honest! My dogs live in the house and sleep on the bed and enjoy all the comforts of home, but some few things I just revert to old-fashioned corrections.

Wishing you luck! She sounds like a lovely girl. You can post photos of her if you'd like. :)

~ Gloria


........

 

I am 22 and Addison is my first dog on my own. I know a Border Collie is a bold choice for a first dog, but I have a lot of time to devote to her, previous experience with dogs, and the commitment to work with her. Plus I found her on craigslist and felt responsible for taking care of her so she didn't end up with someone less capable! I had been looking for a dog for a while and found a college kid's add for her on craigslist. He had gotten her before he had an apartment and only had her for two weeks before he signed a new lease that didn't allow dogs.....idiotic, but none the less he needed her gone by the end of the day. He told me that she is "probably" a Border Collie Sheltie mix, but he wasn't sure because he had bought her from someone who rescued dogs from Amish farms......

 

Addie has an alpha dog personality and always wants to be top dog in a group. Only on a couple occasions have I seen her take spot number two and that's my parents labradoodle and my boyfriends parents dogs. Both occasions involved her and I visiting someone's house where there already was an alpha dog and an extensive introduction among the dogs where I had to have Addison lie on her back and let the other dogs sniff her. She's occasionally stubborn when it comes to me giving her commands, but it's becoming less frequent as I'm strict about being top dog. I'm starting to think it may just be a teenage phase.....

 

1. She barks out the window constantly and excessively/loudly. I have read that this could mean she isn't stimulated/exercised enough at home and that could be true..but more than anything it seems like she has chosen the job of guard dog and is taking it very seriously. She hears and sees things I've never noticed and makes sure I notice them! I've tried a couple different things - telling her off the couch or away from the window and making her sit until she relaxes then allowing her to return - just recently I started going over to the window letting her know I see what it is and then giving her an end command. Both work to get her to stop barking in the moment, but neither has taught her to stop or at least limit her barking overall. She will bark at something in the street endlessly unless I give her a command or come to the window and even then she's really reluctant to stop.

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I agree with almost everything Gloria suggested and I am confident she is not a big meanie. :) Just from my own experience I'ver the years living with barking dogs and a large picture window, I have found that positive reinforcement for stopping barking is much more effective for my dogs than punishment. And I do use corrections.

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I am a fan of CU, though some of the activities can be hard to implement for the average dog owner. I wish I had access to ring gates! Also another fairly new book I like is "Fired Up, Frantic and Freaked Out" by Laura VanArendonk Baugh. Another great one is Behavioral Adjustment Training (BAT) by Grisha Stewart.

 

I think I may have read this suggestion in the BAT book, but can you maybe buy a roll of some semi-transparent sticker/tape to put on your window? I can't remember what they called it in the book....

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I am a fan of CU, though some of the activities can be hard to implement for the average dog owner. I wish I had access to ring gates! Also another fairly new book I like is "Fired Up, Frantic and Freaked Out" by Laura VanArendonk Baugh. Another great one is Behavioral Adjustment Training (BAT) by Grisha Stewart.

 

I think I may have read this suggestion in the BAT book, but can you maybe buy a roll of some semi-transparent sticker/tape to put on your window? I can't remember what they called it in the book....

You can buy cling film at Lowes/Home Depot thats frosty looking or a design to let light in but block the view, I used it on my back doors to eliminate All Day Squirrel Patrol when it started getting out of hand.

 

168388_1829742669746_2171269_n.jpg

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Yes that is what I was thinking of! It could just be used as a temporary fix while the behavior is worked on as well. My neighbors have a sheltie that barks out of the windows constantly and it drives me mad, next time I see the owners out I'm going to suggest this to them.

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Its more complicated than a sentence or two I can type here (and veering off topic), and I gave away the book, but as I recall she suggested a lot of things that would put a dog way over threshold, and that is not helpful to a fear aggressive reactive dog.

 

That's not how I found it but like you I don't have the book to hand any more.

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As for the barking out the window thing, I'll echo what others have said: can you move the couch? If not, mine may not be a very popular option, and I don't know how sensitive she is, but is she's really that obsessive about the window-barking, ... what about swatting with a newspaper? What about shaking a penny can and bellowing NO? What about pouncing the instant she starts and driving her off her couch and away from the source of her behavior? Unless a dog is apt to be shattered by a correction like that, I have no problems with making an ugly, obsessive behavior more trouble than it's worth.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with that is that you could just end up with a dog that will shut up when you are there but carries on barking when you aren't. I have a terrier - I know. He knows when I can't do anything about it and yes, he does get forcefully interrupted.

 

His barking at the window is controlled by keeping him in the back of the house where he can't see the road. Moving the couch didn't work for him because he can just jump from floor to windowsill.

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You can buy cling film at Lowes/Home Depot thats frosty looking or a design to let light in but block the view, I used it on my back doors to eliminate All Day Squirrel Patrol when it started getting out of hand.

 

168388_1829742669746_2171269_n.jpg

I just bought some with a nice pattern and love it. I found it does take two people, (at least if one of the people is me!) to install, but would purchase and use it again with no reservations.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

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