Puppy Training

[Alchemist]

Yep. By "nature", I meant the whole package of instinctive behaviors that contributes to skill in working stock (or the absence of such, in the case of "sporter" or conformation-bred Border collies). By "nurture", I meant learned/trained behaviors that may have preceded a dog's being trained on stock; this could include training a dog to focus on the handler to an extent that could potentially influence its behavior while working stock (the subject of this thread).

 

I'll also add that the person I train with used to do competitive obedience, and her first trial dog (who she trained herself) trialed competitively at USBCHA Open *after* first training it in obedience. This was, I dunno, twenty or thirty years ago, before (I think?) there were many "sporter" collies, and before ACK had messed with the breed, so my guess is that her first dog was likely to have been working bred. So I know it's possible to do stockwork with a dog after having trained it in a different venue (obedience in this case). But then I'm nowhere near as skilled a trainer/handler as she is.

[Maralynn]

I know of a Border Collie that was trained to open level then was purchased to do goose control work and was subsequently trained for SAR and continued on with both SAR and goose work.

 

Kipp was trained for SAR work then reintroduced to sheep work (by this time was a frisbee fiend). The two sure didn't seem to conflict for him, but then SAR is more independent work than competitive OB or agliity. FWIW, the advice I was given from SAR people was to train one and then the other. The big concern for them was that if you put a BC on stock then they wouldn't have the drive to do SAR or he'd try to herd stock every if he came across some while searching. But I think it taught him better self control. I can call him off of deer easily.

 

I also do clicker training with him (stupid pet tricks) and it hasn't created a hyper focused dog. He seems to switch back and forth between different activities pretty well. And chills great in the house. But besides passing SAR certification I'm not at a competitive level with him on anything.

[Shetlander]

Quinn was trained quite extensively in agility from puppyhood, clicker trained, and I played all sorts of games with him. Plus he is sports bred. From the first time he saw sheep, he wouldn't have noticed if I had been set ablaze by lightening. Nothing beat sheep for Quinn, though his talent was limited. The instructor/trainer always handled him, but I don't think he would have been glued to my side if I had attempted to work him.

 

ETA Despite all his sports training and the play I encouraged (and we still engage in), he is a fine companion and when he goes to work with me, people frequently comment on how laid back he is.

[Maja]

Concerning the OP - forget about training that pup, send it to me

[Chianne]

I LOVE the DVD I ordered. I also joined the online tutorials, which came to less then $5 a month on the website, What i really love about it is the online tutorials and DVD's show different dogs and the problems you can encounter with them. When important things happen in them for training purposes he shows them in slow motion.... I have been to jack Knox, Lyle Ladd and Kathy Knox clinics as working spots and learned more from the DVD's and online tutorials then at all the clinics combined.

[cwb3]

Very interesting discussion here! As you can see from my picture, Cowboy has thus far been raised on sports (Flyball and Agility) and is completely ball obsessed and struggles to drive very far ahead of me in agility without turning back and barking "what's next dammit?!?"

 

That said up to now, all of 4 lessons, he has been pretty good with the very initial aspects of herding: going clockwise and counter-clockwise, downing at the 12:00 position, creating space between himself, the sheep, and me, moving behind the sheep following me. We have yet to try outruns, more fetching than from about 150 ft, and driving the sheep forward away from me.

 

It will be interesting to observe if and when we come across any of these commonly cited pitfalls. Not sure if he is "sport bred" or not. His sire and dam have no particular pedigree. The dam used to work sheep out west, now is a general barn helper sort of dog. The Sire apparantly comes from Ireland, was thought to be off good working lines, but showed not great working talents himself. On the other hand, most of the rest of the litter now work either cattle or sheep on various farms in Loudon and Faquier Co. Virginia.

 

Thanks Chianne for the DVD recommendation, I may order that. I am considering attending the Kathy Knox clinc in MD in November, but may not have the time to do more than audit a day. Would love to get a working spot if I can convince my wife to less us loose for 3 days.

[Chianne]

The DVD was great but his online tutorial videos are great too. That $5 a month for membership gives you access to all his video tutorials plus his training blog. Money well spent if you want to train a dog imho.

 

Some of his online videos tutorials are listed HERE. What was most helpful is he works with different dogs, each with their own training difficulties. He slow motions the important stuff. He even goes into sheep and what breeds are good to start dogs and why on the DVD. Loved it and learned a ton.

[rushdoggie]

Only a tiny smidge of maybe useful to add...I started working my dog on sheep recently. He had previously been trained to be a pet and in agility. I didn't plan to work him on livestock because I thought it was out of my budget and I didn't have time for it. He is a very soft dog who is somewhat fearful of people.

 

Well, things changed, turns out he is not a good fit for agility at least at this point in his life. I became a little more flush and found a trainer close enough that time wasn't an issue. So we are giving stockwork a go.

 

We have had only a few lessons, but I have learned that I had to adjust MYSELF a great deal. My trainer immediately made me change my body language, how I held my arms, where I was looking etc because "this wasn't sports." Every time she adjusts me my dog works better. So maybe some of the behaviors you see in "sports first" dogs is because of what the handler is doing?

 

I also learned my soft dog who crumbles when I point at him at home can take a wallup of a correction from both me and my trainer when he needs it and not get upset. I even accidentally whapped him on his shoulders with my stock stick (I meant to hit the ground in front of him and he lunged) and he just kept moving. Holy heck. If I raise my voice at him at home he cowers.

[Chianne]

I'm learning that it's not what you say as much as how you say it. Corrections but still encouraging your dog to work can be tricky, especially for a soft dog.