This whole "dominate your dog" movement

[mum24dog]

never said anything about positive punishment, simply punishment is necessary for full understanding to occur. If there are no bad consequences (bad being relative here, pressure, time out or whatever, not necessarily shock or alpha roll etc) then often owners fall into bribery (which is not affective)and more often than not training fails. But punishment is applied once the dog has learned something, not to 'teach' the dog.

 

The problem may be in what punishment is. I can do a soft ack and my dogs know they are doing something wrong. I may apply pressure through body language to correct undesirable behaviours. These are punishers. Or I could take a shock collar and put it up at max-again another punisher. Punishment need not be harsh but needs to be meaningful to the dog in order to be effective.

 

The pitfall of dominance training is it more often teaches the dog a learned helplessness, meaning the dog does nothing-hence can do nothing wrong. When the dominance trainer is present the dog appears well behaved because he is afraid to do anything, certainly not good for dogs doing many sports.

 

I agree with all that especially

 

 

But punishment is applied once the dog has learned something, not to 'teach' the dog.

 

And we need to be very sure that the dog really has learned what we have tried to teach rather than complaining (as too many people do) "But he should know what to do". It drives me nuts. More often than not it is totally our failing if a dog doesn't comply.

[gcv-border]

 

 

At our very first clinic, we were sitting waaaay in the back row, trying to stay away from being too close to other dogs, when out of the blue Phoenix lunged into the air bearing teeth! at a nice Border Collie quietly passing by on leash with his people. Jack was giving his morning talk, and simply walked through the crowd ..grabbed Phoenix's leash and whacked him on the butt with the stock stick.

 

I am wondering about the timing of the punishment. How long from when Phoenix acted out to when Jack, after walking through the crowd, whacked him? Do you think that Phoenix really knew why he was whacked? - since my understanding is that reinforcement (+ or -) should be delivered immediately after the behavior.

 

Jovi

[Reddish]

Why was the dog whipped again? Do I understand correctly that he was either trying to escape or seeking your safety? Why would one punish a dog for that?

[Laurae]

Whipped?

[juliepoudrier]

Wow, we go from a simple description of a whack from a stock stick to beating and whipping? Seriously?

 

Joe Anne, was I at that clinic?

 

I can assure you the dog was not beaten, nor was it whipped. Jack has trained and handled dogs for longer than some of us have been alive. He can read a dog and his timing is impeccable. I have seen him put plenty of pressure on a dog (through his presence/body), but I have never seen him beat a dog.

[Reddish]

Oh, I am sorry. English is not my first language. I did not know the difference between whack and whip

[G. Festerling]

Wow! This is why I am starting to really, really dislike forums!

[Joe Anne]

Julie....Thank you! I am so glad you said that, because I could feel my BP rising, and knowing I would have to respond much later in order to remain positive and not " just re-act". ! LOL! I realize everyone is entitled to their opinion, so I will respectfully step out of an on going discourse if it becomes negatively judgemental or name calling is involved.

 

I really do not want to argue

 

You being an eye witness to exactly what happened, and the change in my dog for the better, should suffice and does for me!

Phoenix is a much happier and social dog, and I am a much happier Mom!!!

 

 

To sum it up, in case I forgot to mention ....... as a PROFESSIONAL PET DOG TRAINER... With Over 20 years experience, I think I know a "wagging tail" AND dog body language well enough as well as MY dog and what he needs!

I also know when behavior is beyond my "skill or knowledge" and my dog needs help NOW!

 

I would, do and will trust Jack with any dog! As I said both Phoenix and I adore Jack, not only as a trainer but as a beautiful human being!

Thanks again Julie!

[Sue R]

Joe Anne - I think I was at the clinic, too. If I remember correctly, Jack's approach was timely and effective. I've seen similar results with other dogs whose behavior was unacceptable at clinics, and Jack's "punishment" is always tailored to "fit the crime" and is effective. And the same dogs appear to respect him and be willing to do anything for him.

 

Perhaps part of that is that Jack gives a dog clear, fair, and understandable corrections - and what a dog wants as much as anything to know what is expected of him/her with clarity and fairness. That is why I think (within limits) that a variety of training methodologies work when the person applying the method is doing it with skill and understanding, good timing and good attitude.

 

I have seen widely-varying stockdog training approaches that all yield, in capable hands, good results and happy, useful dogs. Some approaches suit some people better than others; some approaches suit some dogs better than others.

 

JMO.

[toney]

I admire Julie and the old timers who stay on this board and answer beginner questions again and again.

 

However after seeing a 5 page post on setting puppy ears and then accusing Jack Knox of all people of abusing a dog has finally soured my stomach.

 

And I've been a member of this forum since its inception.

[Joe Anne]

Sue R and toney...thanks...I very much appreciate all of you supporting me and mostly Jack. Although he would be the first one to say he does not need any ones support! LOL! And actually that is true! He KNOWS these dogs better than most anyone I have ever met! And they quickly learn to know him as well, and voluntarily go back for more!

 

Toney.....PLEASE do not leave the boards, we need people who can be respectful and agree that someone else's "reality", does not have be the same as ours or vice versa and that is ok.

[rlwzgd]

Sue R and toney...thanks...I very much appreciate all of you supporting me and mostly Jack. Although he would be the first one to say he does not need any ones support! LOL! And actually that is true! He KNOWS these dogs better than most anyone I have ever met! And they quickly learn to know him as well, and voluntarily go back for more!

 

Toney.....PLEASE do not leave the boards, we need people who can be respectful and agree that someone else's "reality", does not have be the same as ours, and that is ok.

Very well said! I've been trying to think of a way to put it and all I can come up with is quip remarks about clickers and stock dogs. I appreciate all the time anyone takes to answer my questions.

[G. Festerling]

Toney said it better than me!

[Pam Wolf]

People often misconstrue what they see at a clinic. I've know clinicians who were disliked for 'drinking' when they were drinking fruit juice (non alcoholic). And working stock is most often working with a dog in high prey drive. Negative reinforcement is often the best way to protect the stock. As a sheep producer I'd rather see a dog hit than a sheep bit.

 

I'll add that often an experienced dog person may recognize behaviours that the inexperienced owner may not. These precursors to extreme bad behavior can be easily shut down before they become problems. The type of training done by CM etc works, but the person HAS to understand the dog's behavior fully in order for it to be effective, hence the problem with this sort of training.

[mtnfrank]

And working stock is most often working with a dog in high prey drive. Negative reinforcement is often the best way to protect the stock. As a sheep producer I'd rather see a dog hit than a sheep bit.

 

Do you mean 'negative reinforcement' , removing something unpleasant to increase a behaviour, if so could you explain how it would be done

 

or 'positive punishment', adding something unpleasant to reduce a behaviour, such as a correction (eg whack) to prevent getting at the stock

[Eileen Stein]

I'd like to see that wag and what it really means.

 

 

 

I'd like for you to see that wag too. I didn't see Joe Anne's dog's wag, but I've seen many other dogs' wags at other Jack Knox clinics. It can be very educational. It can rock your preconceptions. I'm sure Jack has never given any thought whatsoever to quadrants, and to theories about which ones are nice and which ones are naughty. He just knows, feels and speaks dog at a very deep level. With all the learning theory in the world you can't learn that -- I'm convinced it's inborn in some lucky people.

 

Some folks are absolutely convinced that it's cruel to ever confine a dog to a small cage, whatever the context. Sometimes those people come to see, through personal experience with crates, that it's not -- that their blanket disapproval or even horror was misguided. Some people will never learn that, because they are closed to changing their views through wider experience. They just know the dog is harmed, because it has to be harmed, because it has been put in a cage.

 

Some folks are absolutely convinced that it's cruel to ever strike a dog, whatever the context. Some of those people learn otherwise through experience -- they see that their blanket disapproval or even horror was misguided. Some are not open to changing their views through wider experience. They just know the dog is harmed, because it has to be harmed, because it was hit with a stock stick.

 

I would love to see what your reaction would be if you could have been there, and better still, could have seen the dog's subsequent attitude toward Jack. Humans have a tendency to think in the abstract, and to lump together hit, whack, beat, whip as all equaling violence, and violence = bad. Dogs don't think that way -- they just don't.

 

toney: Don't you dare think about leaving!

 

mtnfrank: I'm sure Pam meant 'positive punishment' in the behavioral jargon. She just may not like that particular piece of behavioral jargon, as I don't, because the word 'punishment' is tainted by its connotation of retributive justice in ordinary usage -- "I am going to punish you, I am going to see that you get your just deserts." There was none of that in the whack Joe Anne spoke of.

 

ETA: Shouldn't have ventured to speak for Pam -- she is well able to speak for herself.

[Pam Wolf]

Actually application of pressure until the dog does the right thing as is done by many trainers is NR.

 

A wack with a stock stick is simply punishment. And I'd much rather see the dog wacked than the sheep bit

[sjones]

I try and go to Jack at least once or twice a year. He is so spot on with how he reads dogs, much can be learned just by watching him work dogs. This year I took my four year old dog Meg to his clinic to work on an issue(mostly me) and what a difference it made. To those that think a wack on the butt was too offensive for what was happening, I ask that before placing judgement on Jack and JoAnne for having her dog in the clinic, go and audit a Jack clinic first hand, then make your decision.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Thirty plus years ago, Jack Knox was the first to hold modern sheepdog clinics and he has certainly seen and trained more Border Collies than anyone in the world. Jack is uncommonly gentle and patient and I have never seen him lose his temper with the most useless dog or wouldbe handler. I've seen him correct dog nonsense (like that described) and seen the dog happier for it. "Aha! So that's what's wanted!"

 

Handlers often ask: "What's best for me?"

 

Jack's question has always been: "What's best for the dog?"

 

In 2003, when Jack was inducted into the ABCA Hall of Fame, he began by saying, "I owe everything to the dogs."

 

In January I ran into Jack in Washington State and congratulated him on a spectacular trialing season. He replied, "Oh, aye. Jim has been running very well."

 

Donald McCaig

[Tommy Coyote]

If you didn't know who Jack was it might be easy to misunderstand the correction.

 

Sometimes when a dog is just being a jerk just one strong correction will do the trick. But you have to know what you are doing.

 

Jack's dogs are always so well behaved. Mine, on the other hand, could probably use a few corrections when they are just being rude.

[G. Festerling]

No, it is not that simple as writing it off as not knowing who he is. It is today's tendencies to latch on to one word or idea and automatically poo pooing everyone associated with it, without giving others some credit. It is a very unfortunate sign of the times.

[Maralynn]

^^^ yes. that exactly.

[GentleLake]

It is today's tendencies to latch on to one word or idea and automatically poo pooing everyone associated with it, without giving others some credit.

 

Nooooo . . . there's no one on these Boards who does that!?

[Joe Anne]

Gotta Luv these Border Collies! and ALL, of us whom they create so much passion in!

 

Eileen, I love your "some folks are absolutely convinced...................", description, because I have been one of them folks...concerning crates (many years ago, I might add but I was there!, and also with discipline and some training methods). LIVE AND LEARN !

 

I have learned sooooo much more about dogs in general and BC's in particular going to herding clinics and being on these boards. And I have lived with and known dogs and their behaviors all my life and I am almost 66!

 

I have been training "pet" dogs for over 20 yrs, started my own private in home dog training business in 2006,

........... BUT I promise you.........

 

there is not 1 single day that goes by, that my dogs, my Border Collies, my clients' dogs, people on these Boards, etc.... don't teach ME something, as well as my many other resources and experiences!

 

I like to think of myself as more "open" these days!,

 

Particularly after my BC experiences and what I have learned........ and I like "not being one of those folks who are "absolutely convinced", (well for the most part anyway, ha ha!) LOL!

 

And now I have a new baby BC girl! who has a plan for me I am sure !!!!! fun, fun, fun!!

[G. Festerling]

Sometimes it takes me a second to process things...so here is one last reason why some of these assumptions bother me.

Along with assuming others are just flat stupid (and yes, there is justified ignorance due to no to little experience - after all, everyone starts somewhere), some people also assume that we would let others "abuse" our animals. There are times in my life that I have looked back and wished I had known enough to prepare my animals better bur I never have allowed anyone to leave a lasting negative impact.