This whole "dominate your dog" movement

[maggiesmommy]

I do know an effective alternative. 1) Use of a front clip harness for management while the dog is in training (this can be phased out once the dog's training allows for it); 2) Use of the Look at That Game from Control Unleashed to create a calm response to seeing bikes moving by.

 

If you are interested in learning about that, maggiesmommy, I refer you to the book "Control Unleashed the Puppy Program". Even though your dog is no longer a puppy, the book is totally relevant to dogs of all ages.

 

Since you have some grounding in +R training to begin with, CU would probably help you hone your +R training skills and help you reduce use of aversives more than you might realize is possible right now.

 

There is a lot of cutting edge +R training methodology out there, with new techniques being developed all the time.

 

Just offering that since you directly asked for an alternative.

 

Oh, thank you SOOO much!!! I was very seriously asking for alternatives, so I appreciate the help!!! I'm looking up that book on Amazon right now.

 

The people at the pet store said that a harness probably wouldn't be much help when I explained my problem to them, but if you think it would work that would be awesome. I may get one today, because I need to get cat litter today anyway.

[ArtTalKat]

 

Oh, thank you SOOO much!!! I was very seriously asking for alternatives, so I appreciate the help!!! I'm looking up that book on Amazon right now.

 

The people at the pet store said that a harness probably wouldn't be much help when I explained my problem to them, but if you think it would work that would be awesome. I may get one today, because I need to get cat litter today anyway.

 

 

I agree with a front clip harness and LAT game (I have the same issue with my BC, Talon, and bikes as we go running on a path that has lots of bikers going by all the time. I'm a pretty small person and Talon has some power, so I totally understand where you are coming from when you are getting dragged all over the place! It's frustrating and scary.

 

If you go to the petstore, I do want to say I do not like the Premiere EasyFit Harness personally, and I really recomend you try it on in store and walk around a bit. I find it rubs horribly under the armpits, causing sores, as well as the front part just never fit very well for either of my dogs. Also, I find a lot of dogs can back out of them, even when fitted correctly, So since it turns the dog around when it pulls, this is a huge concern for me.

[bcnewe2]

I often chucked at the thought that there are so many out there who consider such a thing unthinkable! I don't want to be going ahead of my dog all the time, for crying out loud! In fact, I often don't want to go out the door when I send them out to do their business.

 

I agree this is funny! I really don't want to think about my dogs at all going in or out. I don't think of my DH or my DS when we leave the house. It seems to be who ever is at the door and walks out first. Same with the dogs. Potty habits make some dogs have to wait for their rotation. But that's because some dogs I know... forget to pee when everyone is out!

 

Life here is live comfortably, abide by not making a rukus unless it's ruckus's making time without lots of commands.

 

But that being said we do get in habits of dashing out the door. It's not about going before me it's about getting to whatever fun they think lies inwait. If I say "NO get back" they all wait. But like I stated earlier, who wants to think about that all the time.

 

Tug....It's a game. I don't get all the hype about who wins. Except to say I have had dogs that from tug went on to play with me to rough. So we just don't' really play that way. And truthfully I think they were just stronger bigger dogs. It was no fun to play that hard for me. I watch the girls play tug all the time. The winner is declared at the end of each game. No one knows till it's over.

 

It's really live and let live around here as long as in general no one is a jerk. Then my "mad mommy voice" (worked on the kids too) comes out and no one is happy.

[Maralynn]

FWIW the front clip harness did nothing for my committed puller (adopted at 9 m/o). I used a combination of a prong collar and a clicker.

[mum24dog]

FWIW the front clip harness did nothing for my committed puller (adopted at 9 m/o). I used a combination of a prong collar and a clicker.

 

Why bother to use a clicker if you are using punishment? It isn't going to have the effect it should since you are using diametrically opposed methods. What will work is the pain caused by the prong collar, although it's not an approach I would use. Rewarding a dog for choosing to avoid pain is rather superfluous.

[Root Beer]

 

Oh, thank you SOOO much!!! I was very seriously asking for alternatives, so I appreciate the help!!! I'm looking up that book on Amazon right now.

 

The people at the pet store said that a harness probably wouldn't be much help when I explained my problem to them, but if you think it would work that would be awesome. I may get one today, because I need to get cat litter today anyway.

 

The harness itself won't solve the problem, but it will provide you with the safety you need while you are doing the training.

 

I have heard good things about the Freedom Harness, but you would probably have to order one online - I don't think the pet stores sell them. I have used the Easy Walker, but I would not get another because I don't like the martingale style of the front clip apparatus.

[Joe Anne]

Just like human beings, each dog is an individual and should be raised as such. NO ONE METHOD, works for every dog.

The first thing I tell my new dog training clients is this very thing! and proceed with them and their dog, their lifestyle etc.

 

This is also why I started my own Pet Dog Training business, because, working for someone else, did not allow me to treat dogs as individuals, but rather, the old...."do it our way, because we said so method"....didn't cut it for me then and still does not!

 

Having raised MANY dogs of all breeds and mixes and personalities in our home (life experience so to speak), plus all the studying, reading, workshops and formal training, I mix it ALL together with a VERY LARGE dose of common sense, and viola! choose what is right for each doggy!

 

What training/discipline I use for my 6y/o Terrier Mix Bree (about 40 lbs) is not the same as for my whacky BC boy Phoenix, and I suspect the same will be true for my new 4 month old BC girl Rose (who is showing to be a carbon copy of Phoenix!). Bree, is very sensitive to harsh voice or body language. She responds very well to "excuse me, what are you doing? or ahhhh aaah...!!!

 

Luckily Phoenix is a good boy, NOW.. (not always the case!!!). I have used positive and aversives with Phoenix, and he completely turned his progressing bad ass attitude around at our first clinic with Jack Knox. He got some serious discipline and the end of the weekend, he was and has stayed a VERY different dog!!! AND, he still loves Jack!!! There were many witnesses to his behavior when we went to our very first clinic as opposed to his behavior now 6 yrs later!!!!

 

Now if I use as seriously mad mommy voice and say "by golly boy", he immediately stops and comes to my side with this...".oooooh darn... well ok..... I guess I am sorry look on his face", (I usually have to hide my smiley face!!!), it is really cute. So once again, each dog is an individual. PS.... We love tug games, and like someone else said, when we say, "enough", the dogs drop it and say ok!!! Have fun, do what you feel is right for YOUR dog/s... Enjoy them

[mum24dog]

Luckily Phoenix is a good boy (now...not always the case!!!). I have used positive and aversives with Phoenix, and he completely turned his progressing bad ass attitude around at our first clinic with Jack Knox. He got some serious discipline and the end of the weekend, he was and has stayed a VERY different dog!!! AND, he still loves Jack!!! There were many witnesses to his behavior when we went to our very first clinic as opposed to his behavior now 6 yrs later!!!!

 

Just so we don't misunderstand - what did that "discipline" entail?

[Maralynn]

Why bother using a clicker if you are going to use any no pull devise? They all work by making the behavior aversive in some manner

[mum24dog]

Why bother using a clicker if you are going to use any no pull devise? They all work by making the behavior aversive in some manner

 

Really? Not anything I would use.

 

A harness such as Root Beer suggests is not a "no pull device". A harness that digs in under the forelegs like Art Tal Kat describes is. Both harness, both work in different ways, One hurts the dog, one doesn't. The design needs to be chosed very carefully.

 

A properly adjusted front clipping harness makes it far less likely that a dog will want to pull since it encourages the dog to walk in a more evenly balanced way and with a more relaxed posture.

[Root Beer]

Why bother using a clicker if you are going to use any no pull devise? They all work by making the behavior aversive in some manner

 

I would not recommend using a front clip harness on a dog who found it aversive. All dogs that I have worked with on the front clip harness have worn it with no signs of aversion.

 

I also instruct the handlers not to "pop" the leash, or pull back when the dog hits the end. It's a neutral barrier, not a correction. Dog gets to the end of the leash, can't go further, turns in the direction of the handler. It should not, if fitted and used properly, squeeze, or anything like that (which is why I prefer not to have the martingale design on the front clip apparatus - it is hard to get it adjusted so it doesn't squeeze on that design). In fact, many consider a properly fitted harness to be safer than a buckle collar for a dog who pulls, but that is another raging debate altogether!!

 

Again, I recommend it only as a safety device in a case where the dog is likely to pull the handler over, not as a means of training the dog. While the training is happening, the harness and leash, ideally, should be a "decoration", present for safety only, not to communicate information to the dog. When the training is complete, the harness is no longer necessary.

[maggiesmommy]

Thanks for your help, Root Beer. I'm not sure if I'm totally clear on what you're saying (I've had a ton of allergy meds today-- yay, ragweed-- so my brain is kind of fuzzy). Are you saying that a front-clip harness won't actually help to train the dog, but will keep her from pulling me over until she's trained to behave more consistently while she's on a leash? And you're saying to use the Control Unleashed methods to get her to behave better on a leash?

[Root Beer]

Thanks for your help, Root Beer. I'm not sure if I'm totally clear on what you're saying (I've had a ton of allergy meds today-- yay, ragweed-- so my brain is kind of fuzzy). Are you saying that a front-clip harness won't actually help to train the dog, but will keep her from pulling me over until she's trained to behave more consistently while she's on a leash? And you're saying to use the Control Unleashed methods to get her to behave better on a leash?

 

Yes!! Exactly!!

 

When she is no longer triggered by the motion of the bikes (or anything else for that matter), then she will be better behaved on leash. (And CU provides tons of other benefits!)

 

The harness is to keep her from pulling you over.

[maggiesmommy]

Great! Thanks for your help!

[Maralynn]

So the use of the harness is to prevent a problem and there is no pressure placed on it unless the dog does so?

[Root Beer]

So the use of the harness is to prevent a problem and there is no pressure placed on it unless the dog does so?

 

Yes, exactly as if the leash were attached to a buckle collar and the dog walked to the end of the leash and the handler chose to "be a tree". There is not a "correction" delivered by the device (as with a prong or "no pull" harness), but because it is not possible for the dog to continue moving forward, the handler will not be knocked off balance.

 

That is how I have used it, and instructed others to use it - for safety.

[Maralynn]

Yes, exactly as if the leash were attached to a buckle collar and the dog walked to the end of the leash and the handler chose to "be a tree". There is not a "correction" delivered by the device (as with a prong or "no pull" harness), but because it is not possible for the dog to continue moving forward, the handler will not be knocked off balance.

 

That is how I have used it, and instructed others to use it - for safety.

 

Except when when you have a dog that can still move forward....

 

You pretty much described the way I use a prong collar (started using it after I had been pulled over twice when my sweet but surprisingly strong dog suddenly bolted after a cat...)

 

Properly fitted collar, loose leash, and a clicker. Dog is rewarded for walking by me, if dog chooses to bolt, then they are self corrected.

 

Both methods can be done with a strong emphasis on rewarding the desired behavior with a minimal amount of aversion for the dog.

[mum24dog]

Properly fitted collar, loose leash, and a clicker. Dog is rewarded for walking by me, if dog chooses to bolt, then they are self corrected.

 

Both methods can be done with a strong emphasis on rewarding the desired behavior with a minimal amount of aversion for the dog.

 

Your dog is rewarded for walking next to you by not being hurt and by being allowed to walk forward. There is no need to waste a very powerful training tool by using a clicker in conjunction with pain. The two do not mix.

 

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/164

 

To use a clicker effectively you have to change your mindset. It isn't just one of the tools in your box on a par with the punishers and bag of cookies. If you are prepared to use both punishment and a clicker I'm afraid you don't really understand what clicker training is.

 

If you must mix reward and punishment just give the dog the primary reward without the clicker as the clicker will be adding nothing to the dog's understanding in those circumstances.

 

There is nothing at all magical about a little plastic box that makes a noise; it's the principles behind the method that matter and you are not following those principles.

 

The way you use a prong collar is nothing at all like Root Beer uses a harness and I fail to see how a dog bolting and being brought up short by prongs digging hard into its neck can be described as "a minimal amount of aversion".

[mum24dog]

While the training is happening, the harness and leash, ideally, should be a "decoration", present for safety only, not to communicate information to the dog.

 

I think there is more to it than that though.

 

Do you not find that some dogs are immediately calmer with a harness or properly introduced head collar?

 

I take a lot of Ttouch with a grain of salt but calming bands, body wraps, thunder shirts etc do seem to give some dogs a sense of security, or at the very least provide some distraction from what is affecting them in the environment. Maybe a harness could operate in a similar way?

 

At the very least it relieves the pressure on the dog's neck which can be arousing in itself.

[Root Beer]

Do you not find that some dogs are immediately calmer with a harness or properly introduced head collar?

 

I take a lot of Ttouch with a grain of salt but calming bands, body wraps, thunder shirts etc do seem to give some dogs a sense of security, or at the very least provide some distraction from what is affecting them in the environment. Maybe a harness could operate in a similar way?

 

Yes, that may well be.

[Pam Wolf]

good positive training uses reward for training the dog. When the dog has exhibited understanding, then punishment is necessary to ensure obedience is maintained and that the dog knows there are consequences for not obeying. However punishment need not be physical nor harsh, but does need to be effective in order to work.

[Shetlander]

good positive training uses reward for training the dog. When the dog has exhibited understanding, then punishment is necessary to ensure obedience is maintained and that the dog knows there are consequences for not obeying. However punishment need not be physical nor harsh, but does need to be effective in order to work.

Not that I am a purist and I am not patient enough to rely on only positive reinforcement and negative punishment (time out type consequences), but what I have repeatedly read by those expert in operant training is that positive punishment is not necessary to ensure obedience.

[Pam Wolf]

never said anything about positive punishment, simply punishment is necessary for full understanding to occur. If there are no bad consequences (bad being relative here, pressure, time out or whatever, not necessarily shock or alpha roll etc) then often owners fall into bribery (which is not affective)and more often than not training fails. But punishment is applied once the dog has learned something, not to 'teach' the dog.

 

The problem may be in what punishment is. I can do a soft ack and my dogs know they are doing something wrong. I may apply pressure through body language to correct undesirable behaviours. These are punishers. Or I could take a shock collar and put it up at max-again another punisher. Punishment need not be harsh but needs to be meaningful to the dog in order to be effective.

 

The pitfall of dominance training is it more often teaches the dog a learned helplessness, meaning the dog does nothing-hence can do nothing wrong. When the dominance trainer is present the dog appears well behaved because he is afraid to do anything, certainly not good for dogs doing many sports.

[Joe Anne]

Mum24dog....... My Phoenix was seriously heading for trouble, especially with other dogs, and even some people/strangers he did not know. He jumped up on my nephew, who he did not know and who is about 6ft 6 ...face to face level!! With a REAL nasty, snarky attitude that made me realize we were heading for trouble indeed. Not to mention I am a trainer and up until he was about 18 months old, none of this attitude showed itself?! When I first got a hint of his snarkiness, I did EVERYTHING I knew to do as a positive feedback/reward based trainer . I was actually in the process of setting up an appointment with Dr. Karen Overall at the U of Pa. (Animal Behaviorist), when people on these very BC Boards said I needed to get him on sheep! So we did and it is all good now! And both Phoenix and I adore our trainer , Jack Knox!

 

At our very first clinic, we were sitting waaaay in the back row, trying to stay away from being too close to other dogs, when out of the blue Phoenix lunged into the air bearing teeth! at a nice Border Collie quietly passing by on leash with his people. Jack was giving his morning talk, and simply walked through the crowd ..grabbed Phoenix's leash and whacked him on the butt with the stock stick. There was not even a yelp from Phoenix..but he jumped up on my shoulders to go over me, and he got another whacking on the buttocks! That is all it took...never happend with dog or person since. He does have to be reminded now and then but usually waving a baseball hat and a stern "HEY!!!, what are you doing? ", suffices these days! And like I said, he voluntarily walks up to Jack wagging his tail to this very day! And although Phoenix would never win a Mr. Congeniality award, he will greet people nicely and most of the time with very few exceptions other dogs who approach him , like a sane dog! And that is all I ask of him.

[mum24dog]

 

At our very first clinic, we were sitting waaaay in the back row, trying to stay away from being too close to other dogs, when out of the blue Phoenix lunged into the air bearing teeth! at a nice Border Collie quietly passing by on leash with his people. Jack was giving his morning talk, and simply walked through the crowd ..grabbed Phoenix's leash and whacked him on the butt with the stock stick. There was not even a yelp from Phoenix..but he jumped up on my shoulders to go over me, and he got another whacking on the buttocks! That is all it took...never happend with dog or person since. He does have to be reminded now and then but usually waving a baseball hat and a stern "HEY!!!, what are you doing? ", suffices these days! And like I said, he voluntarily walks up to Jack wagging his tail to this very day! And although Phoenix would never win a Mr. Congeniality award, he will greet people nicely and most of the time with very few exceptions other dogs who approach him , like a sane dog! And that is all I ask of him.

 

I'd like to see that wag and what it really means.

 

You are lucky if you got away with allowing a stranger to beat your dog. A stranger who didn't know your dog no less.

 

Some dogs will behave like pitas just because they can and I have no issue with telling such a dog like it is so it is in no doubt that it is not acceptable, but before doing so you really need to know the dog.

 

We've turned round a biter with no dog communication skills whatsoever without having to hit him. He isn't perfect but neither is your dog from what you say. I wouldn't trust a dog whose behaviour has been suppressed by punishment.

 

A personal anecdote - an old guy I know who has had and trained BCs forever thought his dog was bombproof and would take anything he threw at her. He told her off more harshly than usually and found he was wrong. He's devastated that he could misread her so badly but at least it won't happen again.